if you witness a crime

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
Pulsar
Posts: 477
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: if you witness a crime

Post by Pulsar » Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:21 pm

Frank k wrote 
in first jhana evil thinking is suppressed
 
hindrances are left behind, before one gains this mode of mind i.e. first jhana. I would not call these 
necessarily evil i.e. "lust, sloth torpor, restlessness, anxiety" 
For one who is practiced and reached a stage with minimum lust, say still lust for existence is here, can that lust be necessarily evil?
when we are sleepy, worn out, is that an evil?

My experience of  first jhana is,
it is a restful state where a minimum of thoughts perturb the mind
like a few drops (few thoughts) that fall on the river surface after a torrential rain is ceased that make small ripples (examination)
i.e. a minimum amount of thought and examination is still present.

The way first jhana is described, can be presented like this, one has gathered thoughts in a bundle, but not quite, all thought,
a few still assail, but those few are also diminishing and are ceased before approaching the stage of noble silence. i.e. second jhana. I am presenting this in simple language.
Personally for me the best teachers were Atthasalini and the metaphors used to describe these states in the canon.
Reading the Samyuttas, in Mahavagga drew a map for me that was not found easily in VSM.
Each one's experience is different.
About Ven. Analayo, you wrote 
He meditates 5 hours early of in the morning every day with metta bhavana. Wouldn't that make someone a pretty serious meditator?
that makes him a meditator, but not a jhana meditator. 
Ven. Analayo is a Buddhist scholar who has contributed much to our understanding of suttas by translating them, and I respect him for that.
I do not pay attention to his views on jhana. For that Buddhaghosa's Atthasalini is ideal, and also the information one gathers by carefully reading the canon plus one's own experience,
for instance DN 2 or even AN 4.41
free version of Atthasalini
http://www.abhidhamma.com/Dhammasangani_Scan.pdf :candle:

frank k
Posts: 573
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:55 pm

Re: if you witness a crime

Post by frank k » Tue Sep 24, 2019 3:01 pm

I will take a look at the relevant jhana, vitakka section of Dhammasangani, but I'm quite skeptical it could be consistent with what a straightforward EBT (early buddhist text) says. From all the extensive research I've already done on EBT jhana and VRJ (vism. redefinition of jhana), and on another thread going on right now
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=35311

I don't doubt some people could read Vism. and late Abhidhamma redefined version of jhana and find it to be useful teaching, but I just can't endorse a system that contradicts basic fundmental concepts in 7sb awakening factors and 4 jhanas (vitakka, kaya, sukha vedana, etc).

I would bet good money if the same people who find Vism. jhana teaching good, had they been taught meditation via a correct interpretation of EBT jhana, like B. Thanissaro and B. Gunaratana for example, they could progress faster and with less confusion and difficulty.


Pulsar wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:21 pm
Frank k wrote 
in first jhana evil thinking is suppressed
 
hindrances are left behind, before one gains this mode of mind i.e. first jhana. I would not call these 
necessarily evil i.e. "lust, sloth torpor, restlessness, anxiety" 
For one who is practiced and reached a stage with minimum lust, say still lust for existence is here, can that lust be necessarily evil?
when we are sleepy, worn out, is that an evil?

My experience of  first jhana is,
it is a restful state where a minimum of thoughts perturb the mind
like a few drops (few thoughts) that fall on the river surface after a torrential rain is ceased that make small ripples (examination)
i.e. a minimum amount of thought and examination is still present.

The way first jhana is described, can be presented like this, one has gathered thoughts in a bundle, but not quite, all thought,
a few still assail, but those few are also diminishing and are ceased before approaching the stage of noble silence. i.e. second jhana. I am presenting this in simple language.
Personally for me the best teachers were Atthasalini and the metaphors used to describe these states in the canon.
Reading the Samyuttas, in Mahavagga drew a map for me that was not found easily in VSM.
Each one's experience is different.
About Ven. Analayo, you wrote 
He meditates 5 hours early of in the morning every day with metta bhavana. Wouldn't that make someone a pretty serious meditator?
that makes him a meditator, but not a jhana meditator. 
Ven. Analayo is a Buddhist scholar who has contributed much to our understanding of suttas by translating them, and I respect him for that.
I do not pay attention to his views on jhana. For that Buddhaghosa's Atthasalini is ideal, and also the information one gathers by carefully reading the canon plus one's own experience,
for instance DN 2 or even AN 4.41
free version of Atthasalini
http://www.abhidhamma.com/Dhammasangani_Scan.pdf :candle:
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org🐘 STED definitions
www.audtip.org/audtip: 🎙️🔊Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages

frank k
Posts: 573
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:55 pm

every single vitakka reference in pali & english, in MN

Post by frank k » Tue Sep 24, 2019 5:58 pm

https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... ttas.html

65 suttas out of 152 in MN majjihima nikaya reference vitakka.
The table of contents here, but you'll want to read it from the blog article since they all hyperlink to the relevant excerpt, and also contain links to the full sutta.

You're welcome.

And a personal message to Jhana vitakka heretics: I'm going through all the pali suttas, not just MN, until every single reference to vitakka is audited. Vitakka heretics will have nowhere to run, nowhere to hide, no alibi, no excuses. Documented audits will be a single hyperlink click away. You are going down. Down like the hindenberg. The longer you take to repent and admit error, the worse it's going to be. So rip off the bandaid now. You're going to take a hit to your reputation and pride, but it's going to be far worse, exponentially worse the longer you wait.


MN 2 right effort removing asava
MN 4 1st and 2nd jhana
MN 5 thought (pari-vitakka) about carpentry entered his mind (cetaso)
MN 8 1st and 2nd jhana
MN 10 (and DN 22) satipatthana suttas
MN 13 1st and 2nd jhana, and 4 jhanas are gratification of feelings/vedana
MN 18 consciousness → contact → feel → perceive → think → proliferate
MN 19 explicit explanation of how vitakka changes outside and inside first jhana
MN 20 five methods to remove thoughts
MN 21 giving up thoughts and desires connected to lay life
MN 22 not possible to perform sensual acts without sensual thoughts,
MN 23 thinking all day and night about practice
MN 25 1st and 2nd jhana where mara can not see
MN 26 brahma reads buddha’s mind, 1st and 2nd jhana
MN 27 1st and 2nd jhana
MN 30 1st and 2nd jhana better than knowledge and vision
MN 31 1st and 2nd jhana, superhuman
MN 33 right effort removing 3 wrong thoughts
MN 36 1st and 2nd jhana, and buddha boy 1st jhana
MN 38 1st and 2nd jhana, 5niv
MN 39 1st and 2nd jhana, 5niv, jhana similes
MN 43 sariputta invents 5 factors of first jhana
MN 44 as vaca co-doings, and passion obsessions
MN 45 1st and 2nd jhana, pleasure now and rebirth
MN 49 buddha reading brahma’s mind
MN 51 1st and 2nd jhana, 5niv
MN 52 nirvana WHILE doing 1st and 2nd jhana
MN 53 1st and 2nd jhana, how to get it
MN 58 Buddha use premeditated answers or think on the spot?
MN 59 1st jhana better sukha than 5kg, 2nd jhana even better
MN 60 1st and 2nd jhana, 5niv
MN 63 thought interrupt meditation
MN 64 get nirvana while in jhana, and 5 lower fetters
MN 65 1st and 2nd jhana, superhuman
MN 66 thought interrupted meditation, 1st and 2nd jhana perturbable
MN 67 brahma reads buddha’s mind
MN 76 1st and 2nd jhana, 5niv
MN 77 1st and 2nd jhana, similes
MN 78 akusala thoughts cease in 1st jhana, kusala thoughts cease in 2nd jhana
MN 79 four jhanas are path for perfect sukha, but not perfect sukha itself
MN 85 same 2 uses as MN 36, also brahma mind reading buddha
MN 94 1st and 2nd jhana, 5niv
MN 95 buddha reads mind, reasoned thinking
MN 99 1st and 2nd jhana, piti of 7sb same as piti of 4 jhanas
MN 100 same as MN 36 buddha boy 1st jhana
MN 101 1st and 2nd jhana, and reasoned thinking
MN 102 reasoned thinking
MN 105 conversation, thinking & evaluation
MN 107 1st and 2nd jhana, 5niv
MN 108 1st and 2nd jhana, and wrong jhanas
MN 109 thinking while listening to Buddha, Buddha mind reading
MN 111 sariputta examining vitakka WHILE in first and 2nd jhana
MN 112 1st and 2nd jhana, 5niv
MN 113 1st and 2nd jhana, bad person proud of jhana
MN 117 as part of right resolve definition
MN 119 1st and 2nd jhana, and similes, jhana = satipatthana
MN 122 mind inclines toward 3 right and 3 wrong thoughts
MN 123 like MN 18 vitakka in hierarchy after vedana and sañña
MN 124 in 80 years as monk Bakkula never had 3 wrong thoughts
MN 125 explicitly omits 1st jhana because ‘thinking’ is active
MN 128 3 ways of samadhi, with & without vitakka...
MN 138 1st and 2nd jhana, internally stuck
MN 139 1st and 2nd jhana, should not be feared
MN 141 1st and 2nd jhana, as samma samadhi definition
MN 147 thought pops in buddha’s mind as he meditates
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org🐘 STED definitions
www.audtip.org/audtip: 🎙️🔊Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages

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