STED Sati: a concise yet comprehensive definition

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
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frank k
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STED Sati: a concise yet comprehensive definition

Post by frank k » Sun Jul 21, 2019 5:11 pm

www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org🐘 STED definitions
www.audtip.org/audtip: 🎙️🔊Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages

sunnat
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Re: STED Sati: a concise yet comprehensive definition

Post by sunnat » Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:46 pm

Sati is choiceless awareness
Sati is bare present moment awareness
For example anapana sati. In and out breath awareness. It's not about remembering. It's 'how is the breath at the moment' . Not 'how is my breath at the moment'. It's equanimously being aware of that which is true and that can only ever be in the present, constantly changing, anicca, the present, which is not self. This takes practice. Repeatedly coming back to the present moment because the tendencies of the mind is to wander away from that which is unpleasant or unwanted, neither pleasant nor unpleasant towards that which is regarded as pleasant and wander in the past or in the future, studiously avoiding that which is true, whether it is pleasant, unpleasant or neutral, cloaked in ignorance, spending time in that which is not true. The aim is the supreme truth. The training is to become aware of truth. I am walking, I am sitting, the breath is coming in, now it has stopped, now it has started moving out, this is body and so on. Focusing in on how it is in the present moment. Equanimous. Choice is not involved.

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DooDoot
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Re: STED Sati: a concise yet comprehensive definition

Post by DooDoot » Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:03 am

sunnat wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:46 pm
Sati is choiceless awareness
Sati is bare present moment awareness
For example anapana sati. In and out breath awareness. It's not about remembering.
Awareness = consciousness = viññāṇa

Viññāṇa is not sati

Viññāṇa = wisdom faculty

Sati = remembering/recollection = concentration faculty
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

sunnat
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Re: STED Sati: a concise yet comprehensive definition

Post by sunnat » Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:24 am

Thank you. Buddha's teachings will always first be practical. That reveals the true meanings. Remembering the breath going in and out. Being aware of the breath going in and out. You choose.

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DooDoot
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Re: STED Sati: a concise yet comprehensive definition

Post by DooDoot » Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:31 am

sunnat wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:24 am
Thank you. Buddha's teachings will always first be practical.
I agree. But this does not mean your post is correct or practical. Your ideas are only beginners or introductory level.
sunnat wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:24 am
Remembering the breath going in and out.
I disagree. Sati does not remember (sati) the breath going in and out. Sati remembers to keep the mind free from covetousness and distress. When the mindfulness remembers to keep the mind free from hindrances, the mind will automatically know (pajānāti) or experience (paṭisaṃvedī) the breathing. Mindfulness is not required to know (pajānāti) breathing. Mindfulness is only required to keep the mind free from the hindrances to knowing (pajānāti).
That is why on that occasion a bhikkhu abides contemplating (anupassi) the body as a body, ardent, fully aware and mindful (sati), having put away covetousness and grief for the world.

When breathing in long they know: ‘I’m breathing in long.’ When breathing out long they know: ‘I’m breathing out long.’ Dīghaṃ vā assasanto ‘dīghaṃ assasāmī’ti pajānāti, dīghaṃ vā passasanto ‘dīghaṃ passasāmī’ti pajānāti

They practice breathing in experiencing the whole body. They practice breathing out experiencing the whole body. ‘sabbakāyapaṭisaṃvedī assasissāmī’ti sikkhati, ‘sabbakāyapaṭisaṃvedī passasissāmī’ti sikkhati;

Anapanasati Sutta
The breath is an object of awareness is the present moment therefore it appears the breath cannot be 'remembered', 'recollected' or 'brought to mind'; or, the opposite, 'forgotten'. Since the body is always breathing, it seems the breath cannot be 'forgotten' because it is always present.

Where as the wisdom & knowledge required to practise Anapanasati is not always present. This is why 'sati' is required to 'remember' to practise.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

sunnat
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Re: STED Sati: a concise yet comprehensive definition

Post by sunnat » Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:54 am

Characteristic.

'Mindfulness (sati) has the characteristic of remembering. Its function is not to forget and is manifested as guarding.' - be mindful, be aware.

Don't forget, maintain continuous awareness. Remember, not to practice, but to bring the awareness back to the breath when practicing, when the awareness wanders.

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DooDoot
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Re: STED Sati: a concise yet comprehensive definition

Post by DooDoot » Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:57 am

sunnat wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:54 am
'Mindfulness (sati) has the characteristic of remembering. Its function is not to forget and is manifested as guarding.' - be mindful, be aware.
Sure. But guarding against what? To 'guard', the mind 'guards against' something. Watching the breath is not 'guarding against'.
sunnat wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:54 am
Don't forget, maintain continuous awareness.
No breathing there. Having continuous awareness does not necessarily mean awareness of breathing.
sunnat wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:54 am
Remember, not to practice, but to bring the awareness back to the breath when practicing, when the awareness wanders.
No. The above is what is taught to rank beginners but appears not is what taught in the suttas. Regardless, to remember to bring the awareness back to the breath is not awareness of the breath as you originally posted. It is only remembering to bring the mind back. It seems you refuted your own argument. :smile:
MN 117 wrote:One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one's right mindfulness.

One is mindful to abandon wrong resolve & to enter & remain in right resolve: This is one's right mindfulness.

One is mindful to abandon wrong speech & to enter & remain in right speech: This is one's right mindfulness.

One is mindful to abandon wrong action & to enter & remain in right action: This is one's right mindfulness.

One is mindful to abandon wrong livelihood & to enter & remain in right livelihood: This is one's right mindfulness.

Thus these three qualities — right view, right effort & right mindfulness — run & circle around right view, right resolve, right speech, right action & right livelihood.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

sunnat
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Re: STED Sati: a concise yet comprehensive definition

Post by sunnat » Mon Jul 22, 2019 1:16 am

'Mindfulness (sati) has the characteristic of remembering. Its function is not to forget and is manifested as guarding.' - Not guarding against. Being alert. Maintaining a continuous awareness of whatever, the breath, anicca,...

edit add: missed the addition. Not refuting so much as making a concession.

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DooDoot
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Re: STED Sati: a concise yet comprehensive definition

Post by DooDoot » Mon Jul 22, 2019 1:18 am

sunnat wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 1:16 am
'Mindfulness (sati) has the characteristic of remembering. Its function is not to forget and is manifested as guarding.' - Not guarding against. Being alert. Maintaining a continuous awareness of whatever, the breath, anicca,...
Sorry but the above does not make sense, linguistically.
guard
/ɡɑːd/
Learn to pronounce
verb
gerund or present participle: guarding
1.
watch over in order to protect or control.
"two men were left to guard the stockade"
synonyms: protect, stand guard over, watch over, look after, keep an eye on, take care of, cover, patrol, police, defend, shield, safeguard, preserve, save, keep safe, secure, screen, shelter; More
2.
protect against damage or harm.
"the company fiercely guarded its independence"
Mindfulness does not maintain a continuous awareness of anicca (impermanence).

Instead, mindfulness maintains a continuous awareness so to prevent regarding anything as nicca (permanent).

Mindfulness guards against wrong view & maintains right view, as said in the suttas:
One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one's right mindfulness.

MN 117
But to have continuous awareness of anicca requires much more than mere mindfulness. To have continuous awareness of anicca is not developed until Step 13 of Anapanasati.

:smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

sunnat
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Re: STED Sati: a concise yet comprehensive definition

Post by sunnat » Mon Jul 22, 2019 1:42 am

ok, I'm not into steps of anapana nor debating opinions. If it works for you, very good. If it doesn't and you've tried long enough, try something else.

frank k
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Re: STED Sati: a concise yet comprehensive definition

Post by frank k » Mon Jul 22, 2019 3:32 pm

Now ask yourself this. If sati is choice-less awareness bare attention, how can it perform its most basic function below?

sati: A simple explanation

sati = remembering.
People are forgetful (a-sati).
Their attention gets distracted all the time, and they forget what they should be doing.
They get distracted, confused, and seduced by defilements (non-Dharma).
Sati remembers ☸Dharma. Always.
Sati's role in the 8aam noble eightfold path, is to remember the ☸Dharma that we're so forgetful of.
Whenever your mind is remembering and engrossed in non-Dharma, it's in grave danger.
Sati is the re-mindfulness factor that reminds you to turn your attention away from non-Dharma, back to ☸Dharma.
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org🐘 STED definitions
www.audtip.org/audtip: 🎙️🔊Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages

frank k
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Re: STED Sati: a concise yet comprehensive definition

Post by frank k » Mon Jul 22, 2019 3:49 pm

Monday, July 22, 2019
This is why sati is NOT mindfulness
Face it, it's a lost cause.

The word 'mindfulness', which actually is a great translation and accurate, the way it was coined and originally intended, has been hijacked by psychotherapy and watered down Buddhism.

These commonly accepted dictionary definitions below for 'mindfulness', completely loses the most important and basic aspect of sati in the EBT. To remember (sati) the Dharma instruction directly relevant to realizing Nirvana.

The problem is intractable. There is no point trying to re-educate people what sati/mindfulness really means. You're totally outnumbered, and convention will always be defined by the popular opinions.

Your best bet is to avoid the term 'mindfulness' completely, and stick with with the original pali, 'sati', or another English word like "remembering", "rememberfulness".




https://www.merriam-webster.com/diction ... s#examples

mindfulness noun
mind·​ful·​ness | \ ˈmīn(d)-fəl-nəs \
Definition of mindfulness
1: the quality or state of being mindful
2: the practice of maintaining a nonjudgmental state of heightened or complete awareness of one's thoughts, emotions, or experiences on a moment-to-moment basis
also : such a state of awareness


mindfulness - Oxford Learner's Dictionaries
https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries. ... indfulness
​a mental state achieved by concentrating on the present moment, while calmly accepting the feelings and thoughts that come to you, used as a technique to help you relax A therapist may teach mindfulness, a concept borrowed from Zen Buddhism. Mindfulness is a way for body and mind to reconnect.

cambridge dictionary:
mindfulness
noun [ U ] UK ​ /ˈmaɪnd.fəl.nəs/ US ​ /ˈmaɪnd.fəl.nəs/

the practice of being aware of your body, mind, and feelings in the presentmoment, thought to create a feeling of calm:
Mindfulness can be used to alleviate feelings of anxiety and depression.
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org🐘 STED definitions
www.audtip.org/audtip: 🎙️🔊Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages

sunnat
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Re: STED Sati: a concise yet comprehensive definition

Post by sunnat » Mon Jul 22, 2019 5:36 pm

"There is no term in Buddhist terminology wider than dhamma. It includes not only the conditioned things and states, but also the non-conditioned, the Absolute Nirvana. There is nothing in the universe or outside, good or bad, conditioned or non-conditioned, relative or absolute, which is not included in this term. [What the Buddha Taught (Grove Press, 1974), p. 58]"

The mind is either collected, focused on the task at hand or it's clinging to and wandering wherever latent tendencies take it. By continually, again and again, bringing the awareness back (while equanimous) the latent tendencies pass away. There is no more re acting of past action. Now there is only bare awareness. It's the moments of bare awareness, choiceless bare awareness that enables the purification process. It's during the periods of correct equanimous mindfulness awareness choiceless that the process of cleansing proceeds. It's during the times of doing nothing that the goal is reached.

frank k
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Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:55 pm

Re: STED Sati: a concise yet comprehensive definition

Post by frank k » Tue Jul 23, 2019 4:00 am

You want to say bare choiceless present awareness is a valid meditative practice under certain conditions, that's a separate discussion. But that practice is not how the Buddha defines sati. You would do well do become very familiar with how the Buddha defines sati-indriya and 4sp satipatthana, and try to figure out how your favorite meditation works around the Buddha's definition, rather than the other way around.
sunnat wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 5:36 pm
"There is no term in Buddhist terminology wider than dhamma. It includes not only the conditioned things and states, but also the non-conditioned, the Absolute Nirvana. There is nothing in the universe or outside, good or bad, conditioned or non-conditioned, relative or absolute, which is not included in this term. [What the Buddha Taught (Grove Press, 1974), p. 58]"

The mind is either collected, focused on the task at hand or it's clinging to and wandering wherever latent tendencies take it. By continually, again and again, bringing the awareness back (while equanimous) the latent tendencies pass away. There is no more re acting of past action. Now there is only bare awareness. It's the moments of bare awareness, choiceless bare awareness that enables the purification process. It's during the periods of correct equanimous mindfulness awareness choiceless that the process of cleansing proceeds. It's during the times of doing nothing that the goal is reached.
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org🐘 STED definitions
www.audtip.org/audtip: 🎙️🔊Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages

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