DN 15: what does "nama-rupa" mean in DN 15?

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DN 15: what does "nama-rupa" mean in DN 15?

Post by DooDoot » Sun Jul 21, 2019 6:45 am

Dear DW forum

I was reading the translation of nama-rupa in DN 15 and, although giving me a headache, I decided to meditate upon it.

I could not be bothered studying the Pali words because it is not so important to me, given I have faith SN 12.2 is the proper & complete explanation of Dependent Origination.

However, about nama-rupa, DN 15 says:
‘Name and form are conditions for contact’—that’s what I said. And this is a way to understand how this is so.

‘Nāmarūpapaccayā phasso’ti iti kho panetaṃ vuttaṃ, tadānanda, imināpetaṃ pariyāyena veditabbaṃ, yathā nāmarūpapaccayā phasso.

Suppose there were none of the features, attributes, signs, and details by which the category of mental phenomena is found. Would linguistic contact still be found in the category of physical phenomena?”

Yehi, ānanda, ākārehi yehi liṅgehi yehi nimittehi yehi uddesehi nāmakāyassa paññatti hoti, tesu ākāresu tesu liṅgesu tesu nimittesu tesu uddesesu asati api nu kho rūpakāye adhivacanasamphasso paññāyethā”ti?

“No, sir.”

“No hetaṃ, bhante”.

“Suppose there were none of the features, attributes, signs, and details by which the category of physical phenomena is found. Would impingement contact still be found in the category of mental phenomena?”

“Yehi, ānanda, ākārehi yehi liṅgehi yehi nimittehi yehi uddesehi rūpakāyassa paññatti hoti, tesu ākāresu … pe … tesu uddesesu asati api nu kho nāmakāye paṭighasamphasso paññāyethā”ti?

“No, sir.”

“No hetaṃ, bhante”.

“Suppose there were none of the features, attributes, signs, and details by which the categories of mental or physical phenomena are found. Would either linguistic contact or impingement contact still be found?”

“Yehi, ānanda, ākārehi … pe … yehi uddesehi nāmakāyassa ca rūpakāyassa ca paññatti hoti, tesu ākāresu … pe … tesu uddesesu asati api nu kho adhivacanasamphasso vā paṭighasamphasso vā paññāyethā”ti?

“No, sir.”

“No hetaṃ, bhante”.

“Suppose there were none of the features, attributes, signs, and details by which name and form are found. Would contact still be found?”

“Yehi, ānanda, ākārehi … pe … yehi uddesehi nāmarūpassa paññatti hoti, tesu ākāresu … pe … tesu uddesesu asati api nu kho phasso paññāyethā”ti?

“No, sir.”

“No hetaṃ, bhante”.

“That’s why this is the cause, source, origin, and condition of contact, namely name and form.

“Tasmātihānanda, eseva hetu etaṃ nidānaṃ esa samudayo esa paccayo phassassa, yadidaṃ nāmarūpaṃ.

https://suttacentral.net/dn15/en/sujato
Although I only read the above superficially, my impression is it means the following:

1. Since the 5th link of sense-bases is absent in DN 15, the nama-rupa link includes the 'external sense bases', such as the sense object of a tree, which are 'features, attributes, signs/themes, details', etc.

2. Since the 1st link of ignorance link is absent in DN 15, the nama-rupa link also includes 'internal tendencies of mind', which are also 'features, attributes, signs/themes, details', etc.

3. In summary, according to DN 15, feeling (7th link) is caused by contact (6th link). That feeling arises at contact is due to having 'internal tendencies that are stimulated by certain external sense objects' (4th link), which have the 'necessary features, attributes, etc' (4th link) to stimulate the tendencies (4th link), which cause 'themes or signs' (4th link) to cause an impactful or impingement (rather than non-impactful) contact (6th link) that causes feeling (7th link) and craving (8th link) to arise.

4. Note: As I said, a 5th link appears absent and incorporated into the 4th link.

OK.

5. Or have I overcomplicated this? Do signs, features, attributes, etc, merely refer to the various physical & mental phenomena that make up the rupa & Nama Kaya?

What do we think? Please kindly share personal views or relevant explanations.

Thank you :smile:
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Re: DN 15: what does "nama-rupa" mean in DN 15?

Post by DooDoot » Wed Jul 24, 2019 3:00 am

OK. Some more translations.
Buddhadasa via Santikaro wrote:Ānanda, it has been said that “contact exists with mind-body as condition.” You need to understand the words “contact exists with mind-body as condition” in the following way.

The description (paññatti) of a mental-group (nāmakāyassa; collection of mentality) depends upon qualities, marks, signs and indications. When these qualities, marks, signs and indications do not exist, how could contact through designation (adhivacana) ever be discerned (paññāyethā) concerning the physical-group (rūpakāye)?

"That could never be."

Ānanda, the naming (paññatti) of a physical-group (rūpakāyassa; collection of physicality) depends upon qualities, marks, signs and indications. When these qualities, marks, signs and indications do not exist, how could contact through mere interaction (paṭigha) ever be discerned (paññāyethā) concerning the mental-group (nāmakāye)?

"That could never be."

Ānanda, the naming (paññatti) of both the mental-group and the physical-group depends upon the qualities, marks, signs and indications. When these qualities, marks signs, and indications do not exist, how could contact through designation (adhivacana) and contact through mere interaction (paṭigha) ever be discerned (paññāyethā)?

"That could never be."

Ānanda, the naming (paññatti) of mind-body depends upon the qualities, marks, signs and indications. When these qualities, marks, signs and indications do not exist, how could contact (phasso) ever be discerned (paññāyethā)?

"That could never be."

Ānanda, for this very reason in this matter, this is the cause, this is the source, this is the origin, this is the condition of contact, that is, mind-body. For this very reason in this matter, the cause, the source, the origin, and the condition of contact is mind-body.

Commentary: Two aspects or levels of contact is one of paṭiccasamuppāda’s many subtleties. This insight illuminates the distinctions made in the above two passages. Sense experience in itself is not necessarily dukkha. Craving manifests through designations or meanings based on qualities and signs


Pali added by Doot
https://www.liberationpark.org/companion.pdf
Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote:“It was said: ‘With mentality-materiality as condition there is contact.’ How that is so, Ānanda, should be understood in this way:

If those qualities, traits, signs, and indicators through which there is a description of the mental body were all absent, would designation-contact be discerned in the material body?”

“Certainly not, venerable sir.”

“If those qualities, traits, signs, and indicators through which there is a description of the material body were all absent, would impingement-contact be discerned in the mental body?”

“Certainly not, venerable sir.”

“If those qualities, traits, signs, and indicators through which there is a description of the mental body and the material body were all absent, would either designation-contact or impingement-contact be discerned?”

“Certainly not, venerable sir.”

“If those qualities, traits, signs, and indicators through which there is a description of mentality-materiality were all absent, would contact be discerned?”

“Certainly not, venerable sir.”

“Therefore, Ānanda, this is the cause, source, origin, and condition for contact, namely, mentality-materiality.

https://suttacentral.net/dn15/en/bodhi
Thanissaro wrote:"'From name-&-form as a requisite condition comes contact. Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how, from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes contact.

If the qualities, traits, themes, & indicators by which there is a description of name-group (mental activity) were all absent, would designation-contact with regard to the form-group (the physical properties) be discerned?"

"No, lord."

"If the permutations, signs, themes, and indicators by which there is a description of form-group were all absent, would resistance-contact with regard to the name-group be discerned?"

"No, lord."

"If the permutations, signs, themes, and indicators by which there is a description of name-group and form-group were all absent, would designation-contact or resistance-contact be discerned?"

"No, lord."

"Thus this is a cause, this is a reason, this is an origination, this is a requisite condition for contact, i.e., name-and-form.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Patrick Kearney wrote:“Name-&-form conditions contact should be understood in this way:

If those qualities (àkàra), traits (linga), signs (nimitta), and indicators (uddesa) through which there is a description of the mental body (nàma-kàya) were all absent, would designation-contact (adhivacana-samphassa) be discerned in the physical body (råpa-kàya)?”

“Certainly not, bhante.”

“If those qualities, traits, signs, and indicators through which there is a description of the physical body (råpa-kàya) were all absent, would impingement-contact (pañigha-samphassa) be discerned in the mental body (nàma-kàya)?”

“Certainly not, bhante.”

“If those qualities, traits, signs, and indicators through which there is a description of name-&-form (nàma-råpa) were all absent, would contact be discerned?”

http://www.buddhistelibrary.org/en/albu ... nidana.pdf
Last edited by DooDoot on Wed Jul 24, 2019 3:52 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: DN 15: what does "nama-rupa" mean in DN 15?

Post by DooDoot » Wed Jul 24, 2019 3:09 am

Patrick's commentary:
Contact is divided into designation-contact (adhivacana-samphassa) and impingement-contact (pañigha-samphassa).

Designation contact (adhivacana-samphassa) is a movement from the mental to the physical, and impingement contact (pañigha-samphassa) is a movement from the physical to the mental.

Designation contact describes immediate experience from the perspective of the knowing. It involves conceptual and volitional activity reaching out into and impacting upon the phenomenal world. The mind designates or names the raw data of experience, organising it into a coherent world. The visual data of moving patterns of colour and light and shade are designated “People sitting in the Buddhist Library;” the aural data of vibrations striking the ear are designated “Passing traffic.” This designation is the work of the mental-body (nàma-kàya), based on the information passed on to it from all the senses - the material body (råpa-kàya).

Impingement contact describes immediate experience from the perspective of the known. It involves the experienced impact of sense data from the phenomenal world. Sense data from the phenomenal world strikes the psycho-physical body and provides the mind (nàma-kàya) with a site (råpa-kàya) on which to construct the experience of a coherent world. Visual and aural data strike their respective sense faculties, and these are constructed into the experience of participating in a class at the Buddhist Library.

So contact is a two way street, and always involves both mind and body. Designation contact could not be known within a material body (rupa-kàya) without the presence of the mental body (nàma-kàya) to reach out to the sense object; impingement contact could not be known within a mental body without the presence of a material body which can register material sense data. These two movements illustrate a fundamental aspect of the Buddha’s model of the experienced world.

We are always in the midst of some given situation - this situation right here and now. The givenness of this situation is inescapable. Whether we like it or not, we are here and now and have no choice to be other than here and now. The givenness of this situation manifests as impingement
contact (pañigha-samphassa), the reception of sense data. However, while we find ourselves inescapably in this given situation here and now, we are free to respond to this situation in any number of ways. This situation here and now is workable. How we work with this situation manifests, in part, as designation contact (adhivacana-samphassa), the active reaching out to and construction of a meaningful world. There is a basic oscillation in experience between passive and active, between what is given and what we can do about what is given, and this oscillation is part of the essential dynamic of dependent arising.

Why does the Buddha not simply say, if there was no name-&-form would contact be discerned? Why does he say that it is “the qualities, traits, signs, and indicators through which there is a description of name-&-form” that condition contact? Again we see the importance of concept in our understanding of the world. This reminds us of the “linguistic turn” in contemporary philosophy, cultural studies, poststructuralism, and so on. It reminds us that interpretation is built into experience; that an experienced world is an already interpreted world. This theme will be expanded upon further into the sutta.

http://www.buddhistelibrary.org/en/albu ... nidana.pdf
:shock:
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Re: DN 15: what does "nama-rupa" mean in DN 15?

Post by sunnat » Wed Jul 24, 2019 3:25 am

By stepping outside, rather than identifying with, the mind-body phenomenon, the door to progress on the path is opened...?

edit add:

This gives a pivotal clue. How to step outside and what to do after.

The moment one may be aware of the contact is when feelings arise. If at that point craving does not arise, the wheel is broken.

How does craving not arise.?

Atapi sampajano satima of anicca of all composed things. That's it. That's the door.

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Re: DN 15: what does "nama-rupa" mean in DN 15?

Post by DooDoot » Wed Jul 24, 2019 3:39 am

sunnat wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 3:25 am
By stepping outside, rather than identifying with, the mind-body phenomenon, the door to progress on the path is opened...?
Maybe. But this topic is not about "the path". Dependent origination is not "the path". Kind regards :smile:
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Re: DN 15: what does "nama-rupa" mean in DN 15?

Post by sunnat » Wed Jul 24, 2019 3:48 am

Yeah, the path is how to leave the wheel of becoming.

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Re: DN 15: what does "nama-rupa" mean in DN 15?

Post by DooDoot » Wed Jul 24, 2019 3:53 am

sunnat wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 3:48 am
Yeah, the path is how to leave the wheel of becoming.
If there is no becoming, will the five hindrances remain? If there is no becoming, will there be the need to use effort to suppress hindrances so the breathing can be known & observed? If there is no becoming, will mindfulness be needed to keep bring the mind back to the breath? If there is no becoming, does the effort & intention even arise to practise Anapanasati? Yet, if there is no becoming, will the breathing still be known? :shrug:
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Re: DN 15: what does "nama-rupa" mean in DN 15?

Post by sunnat » Wed Jul 24, 2019 4:00 am

Between leaving the wheel, by continuous equanimous awareness of anicca, and having left the wheel, nibbana, stretches the path. The length of it depends on the amount of hindrances to defeat and the effort made.

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Re: DN 15: what does "nama-rupa" mean in DN 15?

Post by DooDoot » Wed Jul 24, 2019 7:43 am

What hindrances? The path includes no hindrances; is without asava & becoming. When there is no becoming, the breathing will still be known.

:focus:
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Re: DN 15: what does "nama-rupa" mean in DN 15?

Post by sunnat » Wed Jul 24, 2019 8:41 am

ok, please continue...

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Re: DN 15: what does "nama-rupa" mean in DN 15?

Post by DooDoot » Wed Jul 24, 2019 9:09 am

sunnat wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 8:41 am
ok, please continue...
MN 54 has the same terminology as DN 15:
“Master Gotama, it is neither proper nor appropriate for you to address me as ‘householder’.”
“tayidaṃ, bho gotama, nacchannaṃ, tayidaṃ nappatirūpaṃ, yaṃ maṃ tvaṃ gahapativādena samudācarasī”ti.

“Well, householder, you have the features, attributes, and signs of a householder.”
“Te hi te, gahapati, ākārā, te liṅgā, te nimittā yathā taṃ gahapatissā”ti.

https://suttacentral.net/mn54/en/sujato
Also, SN 51.20:
And how does a mendicant meditate as by day, so by night; as by night, so by day?

Kathañca, bhikkhave, bhikkhu yathā divā tathā rattiṃ, yathā rattiṃ tathā divā viharati?

It’s when a mendicant develops the basis of psychic power that has immersion due to enthusiasm, and active effort, with the same features, attributes, and signs by day as by night.

Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu yehi ākārehi yehi liṅgehi yehi nimittehi divā chandasamādhippadhānasaṅkhārasamannāgataṃ iddhipādaṃ bhāveti, so tehi ākārehi tehi liṅgehi tehi nimittehi rattiṃ chandasamādhippadhānasaṅkhārasamannāgataṃ iddhipādaṃ bhāveti;

https://suttacentral.net/sn51.20/en/sujato
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Re: DN 15: what does "nama-rupa" mean in DN 15?

Post by sentinel » Wed Jul 24, 2019 9:33 am

Without adequate understanding of the historical process of how the texts evolved to be , that is not possible to know the exact meaning of namarupa .
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Re: DN 15: what does "nama-rupa" mean in DN 15?

Post by DooDoot » Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:50 am

sentinel wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 9:33 am
Without adequate understanding of the historical process of how the texts evolved to be , that is not possible to know the exact meaning of namarupa .
I am confident in knowing what is means per SN 12.2 but not per DN 15 but I am working on it. :smile:
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Re: DN 15: what does "nama-rupa" mean in DN 15?

Post by ToVincent » Wed Jul 24, 2019 1:56 pm

"Straining the information supplied in the Vinaya Cullavagga we can proceed so far no doubt, that the first volume of the Digha Nikaya was mainly in the view of its compilers. Comparing the Suttas comprised in the remaining two volumes and marking the differences in theme and tone, it seems that these two volumes were later additions".
(Annals of the Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute - Chronology of the Pali canon).

_____________________

Nāmarūpa
-----------------

SN 12.2 defines it as: form + vedanā, saññā, cetanā, phasso, manasikāro (the same definition recurs in MN 9).

SA 298 states that name is the four formless (non-material) aggregates (form 色, feeling 受, perception 想, co-action 行 and consciousness 識).
MĀ 29 reads 四非色陰為名 (the four formless aggregates) .

SF 238, SF 165 and Arv 5 also define name as the four formless aggregates, and appends their designations as:feeling, perception, co-action, and consciousness. (catvāro ’rūpiṇaḥ skandhāḥ / vedanāskandhaḥ saṃjñāskandhaḥ saṃskāraskandho vijñānaskandhaḥ).

---

Therefore, there are two definitions of nāmarūpa.
One that relates to the Nāmarūpa nidāna - the other to what nāmarūpa becomes when descending in the Buddhist "world"; that is simply to say, in the "satta's world" of senses.
https://justpaste.it/1695d


The former definition is understood through the establishing of consciousness, and the descent of consciousness in the khandhas (see visual aid).
https://justpaste.it/16943
Where the khandhas are the home of consciousness, and consciousness might be engaged with, based upon, and established upon these nāmarūpa nidāna's khandhas.
In that eventuality, nāmarūpa descends in saḷāyatana and satta - where nāmarūpa takes SN 12.2's definition. Phasso and manasikāro being purely satta's stuff, (and to some extent cetanā also).

Note that SN 22.3 & SN 22.53 - (54 & 55) would be absolutely nonsensical, if one would stick to SN 12.2's definition of nāma.
Consciousness descends in the immaterial khandhas as defined in SA 298, MA 29, SF 238, SF 165 and Arv 5.


Then such extracts become clearer:
So there is this body and external name-and-form: thus this dyad. Dependent on the dyad there is contact. There are just six sense bases, contacted through which—or through a certain one among them—the fool experiences pleasure and pain.
Iti ayañceva kāyo bahiddhā ca nāmarūpaṃ, itthetaṃ dvayaṃ, dvayaṃ paṭicca phasso saḷevāyatanāni, yehi phuṭṭho bālo sukhadukkhaṃ paṭi­saṃve­dayati etesaṃ vā aññatarena.
SN 12.19

He abandoned reckoning, did not assume conceit;
He cut off craving, in this (satta's) world, for name-and-form.
Pahāsi saṅkhaṃ na vimānamajjhagā,
Acchecchi taṇhaṃ idha (इह iha - in this world) nāmarūpe.
SN 1.20
Etc.


Here, nāmarūpa is: form + vedanā, saññā, cetanā, phasso, manasikāro.
The nāmarūpa of the world of senses.

______

Again, if one does not understand this (https://justpaste.it/1695d), one will have a very hard time to understand the Dhamma.
.
.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... - In this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------

https://justpaste.it/j5o4

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Re: DN 15: what does "nama-rupa" mean in DN 15?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Jul 25, 2019 12:52 am

ToVincent wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 1:56 pm
"Straining the information supplied in the Vinaya Cullavagga we can proceed so far no doubt, that the first volume of the Digha Nikaya was mainly in the view of its compilers. Comparing the Suttas comprised in the remaining two volumes and marking the differences in theme and tone, it seems that these two volumes were later additions".
(Annals of the Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute - Chronology of the Pali canon).
The above does not change the topic. Thanks. This said, my impression is the nama-rupa in DN 15 is not really different to the nama-rupa in 10 link suttas, such as SN 12.67. DN 15 merely says: "the features, attributes, signs, and details by which the category of mental phenomena is found". These "features, attributes, signs and details" may simply be feeling, perception, intention, contact & attention.

:smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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