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Ajahn Sucitto says mindfulness is "not judgmental", I say it is very judgmental.

Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:40 am
by frank k

Re: Ajahn Sucitto says mindfulness is "not judgmental", I say it is very judgmental.

Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:40 am
by DooDoot
:anjali:

Re: Ajahn Sucitto says mindfulness is "not judgmental", I say it is very judgmental.

Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:25 am
by SarathW
Judgmental is a negative word to describe someone who often rushes to judgment without reason. The adjective judgmental describes someone who forms lots of opinions — usually harsh or critical ones — about lots of people. Judgmental types are not open-minded or easygoing.

https://www.bing.com/search?q=judgement ... 8e226f3004

Re: Ajahn Sucitto says mindfulness is "not judgmental", I say it is very judgmental.

Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:30 am
by retrofuturist
Greetings,

It's because of the connotation of "judgemental" that I think the word "discernment" applies best.

Metta,
Paul. :)

Re: Ajahn Sucitto says mindfulness is "not judgmental", I say it is very judgmental.

Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:02 am
by DooDoot
SarathW wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:25 am
Judgmental is a negative word to describe someone who often rushes to judgment without reason.
It is in Christianity. Were you once a Christian? Thanks

Re: Ajahn Sucitto says mindfulness is "not judgmental", I say it is very judgmental.

Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:27 am
by SarathW
DooDoot wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:02 am
SarathW wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:25 am
Judgmental is a negative word to describe someone who often rushes to judgment without reason.
It is in Christianity. Were you once a Christian? Thanks
No just I want to check the meaning and Google it.
:D
So what is your definition of very judgmental?

Re: Ajahn Sucitto says mindfulness is "not judgmental", I say it is very judgmental.

Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:13 am
by Dinsdale
Interesting. In SN35.245 the gatekeepers role is specifically that of guarding the senses, which does involve continual judgement.
https://suttacentral.net/sn35.245/en/bodhi

This wise guarding function of mindfulness sounds different to being "judgemental", which has come to mean being harshly critical and intolerant.
The use of language can often be problematic!

Re: Ajahn Sucitto says mindfulness is "not judgmental", I say it is very judgmental.

Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:56 am
by budo
I would say Sati remembers to make attention appropriate again. The defilements and hindrances drag or pull the attention away towards improper objects.

It's a battle for attention at the end of the day.

Re: Ajahn Sucitto says mindfulness is "not judgmental", I say it is very judgmental.

Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:59 am
by Dinsdale
budo wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:56 am
I would say Sati remembers to make attention appropriate again. The defilements and hindrances drag or pull the attention away towards improper objects.

It's a battle for attention at the end of the day.
So is the exercise of appropriate attention an aspect of Right Effort?

Re: Ajahn Sucitto says mindfulness is "not judgmental", I say it is very judgmental.

Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:08 am
by Aloka
Here's a link to Ajahn Sucitto's article:

https://www.cittaviveka.org/files/artic ... ulness.pdf



:anjali:

Re: Ajahn Sucitto says mindfulness is "not judgmental", I say it is very judgmental.

Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:16 am
by Zom
Manasikara (mental attention) is not judgmental (though still it can be wrongly or rightly directed). Sati can be micca (wrong) or samma (right).

Re: Ajahn Sucitto says mindfulness is "not judgmental", I say it is very judgmental.

Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:51 am
by budo
Dinsdale wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:59 am
budo wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:56 am
I would say Sati remembers to make attention appropriate again. The defilements and hindrances drag or pull the attention away towards improper objects.

It's a battle for attention at the end of the day.
So is the exercise of appropriate attention an aspect of Right Effort?
Not just right effort, but everywhere. If you look at suttas on sense restraint it's all about not paying attention to beautiful signs (nimitta), even looking at the opposite sex, you shouldn't put too much attention on their beautiful signs.

Even for stilling thoughts.
"If, while he is giving attention to stilling the thought-formation of those thoughts, there still arise in him evil unwholesome thoughts connected with desire, with hate, and with delusion, then, with his teeth clenched and his tongue pressed against the roof of his mouth, he should beat down, constrain, and crush mind with mind. When, with his teeth clenched and his tongue pressed against the roof of his mouth, he beats down, constrains, and crushes mind with mind, then any evil unwholesome thoughts connected with desire, with hate, and with delusion are abandoned in him and subside. With the abandoning of them his mind becomes steadied internally, quieted, brought to singleness, and concentrated. Just as a strong man might seize a weaker man by the head or shoulders and beat him down, constrain him, and crush him, so too...when, with his teeth clenched and his tongue pressed against the roof of his mouth, a bhikkhu beats down, constrains, and crushes mind with mind...his mind becomes steadied internally, quieted, brought to singleness, and concentrated.
- MN 20

Re: Ajahn Sucitto says mindfulness is "not judgmental", I say it is very judgmental.

Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:18 pm
by Pulsar
Dinsdale I think right effort imbues the entire Ten-fold path, MN 117, no factor is independent of the
other. By the way, thanks for your sensible contributions. I enjoy reading them.
Budo, Zom nice comments, very relevant, yes Retrofuturist, discernment is far more appropriate,
the person free of hindrances, will not judge.
DooDoot wrote
It is in Christianity. Were you once a Christian? Thanks
but SarathW is on the right track here, not judging, just discerning.
:candle:

Re: Ajahn Sucitto says mindfulness is "not judgmental", I say it is very judgmental.

Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:14 pm
by sentinel
Pulsar wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:18 pm

the person free of hindrances, will not judge.
The person in the court as a judge need to judge .

Re: Ajahn Sucitto says mindfulness is "not judgmental", I say it is very judgmental.

Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:53 pm
by Pulsar
Sentinel wrote
The person in the court as a judge need to judge
in response to Pulsar's comment
the person free of hindrances, will not judge
Pulsar was commenting on the topic of
Mindfulness
which she assumed to be the intention of the post. She did not read Ajahn Sucitto's publication.

Was Ajahn Sucitto talking of matters of litigation, that involve judges?
If so I was off topic, I apologize. I was thinking of a person free of hindrances,
and his thought process, while engaged in the four establishments of
mindfulness.