SN 12.10 & SN 12.65: Did Gotama use yoniso manasikara to attain full enlightenment??

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DooDoot
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SN 12.10 & SN 12.65: Did Gotama use yoniso manasikara to attain full enlightenment??

Post by DooDoot » Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:34 am

Dear DW forum

I recently visited a forum with the following post:
The entire path is just a practice of Proper Attention (yoniso maniskara), from beginning to end. Even attaining jhanas, is strengthening yoniso manisakara.
From my appropriate attention there came the breakthrough of discernment: 'Consciousness exists when name-&-form exists. From name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.'

Does attaining full enlightenment sound preliminary to you?

The above quote appears to be from SN 12.10 and SN 12.65; where, by using "yoniso manasikara" ("appropriate attention"), Gotama made a "breakthrough" by discovering Dependent Origination.

Did Gotama use "yoniso manasikara" as a primary means to gain full enlightenment in SN 12.10 & SN 12.65?

Please discuss.

Thanks :smile:
Last edited by DooDoot on Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:56 am, edited 9 times in total.
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pitakele
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Re: Did Gotama gain full enlightenment in SN 12.10 & SN 12.65?

Post by pitakele » Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:17 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:34 am

Did Gotama gain full enlightenment in SN 12.10 & SN 12.65?
Aren't these just variations of recollection of Gotama's awakening at Uruvela? I think there are similar recollections of various aspects of his awakening in other suttas in the different nikāyas (could be wrong about this)
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Re: Did Gotama gain full enlightenment in SN 12.10 & SN 12.65?

Post by Srilankaputra » Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:19 am

What is the meaning of this post? I don't know your intention but this appears very disrespectful to me.
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

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Re: Did Gotama gain full enlightenment in SN 12.10 & SN 12.65?

Post by DooDoot » Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:18 am

Srilankaputra wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:19 am
What is the meaning of this post? I don't know your intention but this appears very disrespectful to me.
In the Jataka Tales, there are accounts of talking animals.
pitakele wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:17 am
Aren't these just variations of recollection of Gotama's awakening at Uruvela?
I am sorry. I didn't express the question clearly. The question is about "full awakening" rather than say "gradual awakening". The relevant suttas say:
Monks, [likewise] before I attained supreme Enlightenment, while I was still a Bodhisatta... Then, monks, as I considered this thoroughly (yoniso manasikārā)....
SN 12.65 then says:
The thought occurred to me, 'I have attained this path to Awakening',
SN 12.65 then says:
I followed that path... Just this noble eightfold path...
SN 12.65 then says:
Following it, I came to direct knowledge (abbhaññāsiṃ) of... cessation
My impression is the Puthujjana Gotama used "yoniso manasikārā" to make a "breakthrough" thus attained stream-entry; and then followed the path and later used "abbhaññāsiṃ" to attain full enlightenment. What do you think about this? Thanks :)
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Re: SN 12.10 & SN 12.65: Did Gotama use yoniso manasikara to attain full enlightenment??

Post by SarathW » Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:38 am

As per Noble Tenfold Path, there should be the right knowledge and right release.
It appears SN12.65 is talking about the right knowledge.
SN12.10 seems to have both the right knowledge and right release.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: SN 12.10 & SN 12.65: Did Gotama use yoniso manasikara to attain full enlightenment??

Post by DooDoot » Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:42 am

SarathW wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:38 am
As per Noble Tenfold Path, there should be the right knowledge and right release.
It appears SN12.65 is talking about the right knowledge.
SN12.10 seems to have both the right knowledge and right release.
Sure. But, in your opinion, is "yoniso manasikara" the same as "Right Knowledge"? Thanks :shrug:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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SarathW
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Re: SN 12.10 & SN 12.65: Did Gotama use yoniso manasikara to attain full enlightenment??

Post by SarathW » Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:59 am

In my opinion, Without the right knowledge, you can't have Yoniso manasikara.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: SN 12.10 & SN 12.65: Did Gotama use yoniso manasikara to attain full enlightenment??

Post by sentinel » Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:15 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:42 am
SarathW wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:38 am
As per Noble Tenfold Path, there should be the right knowledge and right release.
It appears SN12.65 is talking about the right knowledge.
SN12.10 seems to have both the right knowledge and right release.
Sure. But, in your opinion, is "yoniso manasikara" the same as "Right Knowledge"? Thanks :shrug:
IMO both are different . One establishes yoniso manasikara first and attain right knowledge after . Then when right knowledge is attained , continuous yoniso manasikara became natural state .

Regards
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Re: SN 12.10 & SN 12.65: Did Gotama use yoniso manasikara to attain full enlightenment??

Post by seeker242 » Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:51 am

"With regard to internal factors, I don't envision any other single factor like appropriate attention as doing so much for a monk in training, who has not attained the goal but remains intent on the unsurpassed safety from bondage. A monk who attends appropriately abandons what is unskillful and develops what is skillful.

Appropriate attention
as a quality
of a monk in training:
nothing else
does so much
for attaining the superlative goal.
A monk, striving appropriately,
attains the ending of stress.

— Iti 16
Have always found that quite interesting. :meditate:

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DooDoot
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Re: SN 12.10 & SN 12.65: Did Gotama use yoniso manasikara to attain full enlightenment??

Post by DooDoot » Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:24 pm

seeker242 wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:51 am
"With regard to internal factors, I don't envision any other single factor like appropriate attention as doing so much for a monk in training, who has not attained the goal

Appropriate attention
as a quality
of a monk in training:

— Iti 16
Excellent quote. Thanks. It appears to say "yoniso manasikara" is for those in training. This said, the quote does not appear sufficiently descriptive to answer the topic question. :)
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Re: SN 12.10 & SN 12.65: Did Gotama use yoniso manasikara to attain full enlightenment??

Post by santa100 » Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:18 pm

DooDoot wrote:The entire path is just a practice of Proper Attention (yoniso maniskara), from beginning to end."
While it's true yoniso manisakara is one of the main themes of practice, one should be careful when putting it like the way above for it might give the false impression that it's the only necessary and sufficient element for the entire Path. The Buddha didn't just teach all 8 limbs of the Noble Eightfold Path for no reason. So, one should just take it as a generalized expression, sort of like the Dhp 183 one:
Dhp 183 wrote:The non-doing of any evil,
the performance of what's skillful,
the cleansing of one's own mind:
this is the teaching
of the Awakened.

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Re: SN 12.10 & SN 12.65: Did Gotama use yoniso manasikara to attain full enlightenment??

Post by Pulsar » Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:00 pm

Doo Doot wrote
My impression is the Puthujjana Gotama used "yoniso manasikārā" to make a "breakthrough" thus attained stream-entry; and then followed the path and later used "abbhaññāsiṃ" to attain full enlightenment. What do you think about this?
My impression is that Gotama was not a puthujjana on the night before enlightenment, because a puthujjana could not have accomplished such a feat, overnight. As for the procedure of his enlightenment, and how exactly it took place, the excerpt below from AN 4.77 has an answer.
Bhikkhus. there are these for inconceivable matters, that one should not try to conceive; One who tries to conceive them would reap either madness or frustration. What four?
1. The Range of the Buddhas is an inconceivable matter that one should not try to conceive; one who tries to conceive it would reap reap madness or frustration.

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Re: SN 12.10 & SN 12.65: Did Gotama use yoniso manasikara to attain full enlightenment??

Post by sentinel » Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:36 pm

Pulsar wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:00 pm
Doo Doot wrote
My impression is the Puthujjana Gotama used "yoniso manasikārā" to make a "breakthrough" thus attained stream-entry; and then followed the path and later used "abbhaññāsiṃ" to attain full enlightenment. What do you think about this?
My impression is that Gotama was not a puthujjana on the night before enlightenment, because a puthujjana could not have accomplished such a feat, overnight. As for the procedure of his enlightenment, and how exactly it took place, the excerpt below from AN 4.77 has an answer.
Bhikkhus. there are these for inconceivable matters, that one should not try to conceive; One who tries to conceive them would reap either madness or frustration. What four?
1. The Range of the Buddhas is an inconceivable matter that one should not try to conceive; one who tries to conceive it would reap reap madness or frustration.
Good point .
At least Buddha's was a stream entry before attaining enlightenment under the bodhi tree .

;)
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Re: SN 12.10 & SN 12.65: Did Gotama use yoniso manasikara to attain full enlightenment??

Post by DooDoot » Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:31 pm

Pulsar wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:00 pm
My impression is that Gotama was not a puthujjana on the night before enlightenment
Thank you Pulsar but there appears to be no evidence SN 12.10 & SN 12.65 are about the night before enlightenment.

Also, these suttas do appear to say Gotama was a putthujjana when he used "yonismanasikara". The suttas say: "Monks, before my Awakening, when I was just an unawakened Bodhisatta... From my appropriate attention there came the breakthrough of discernment: 'Aging & death exist when birth exists "...

It seems apparent all that SN 12.10 & SN 12.65 say about "yoniso manasikara" is it was used by the puthujjana Gotama to make a breakthrough/abhisamayo (to stream-entry).

SN 13.1, which is about stream-entry, uses the word "abhisametāvi", which might be similar to "abhisamayo" in SN 12.10 & SN 12.65.
abhi + samaya, from sam + i, cp. abhisameti & sameti; BSk. abhisamaya

https://suttacentral.net/define/abhisamaya
:candle:
Pulsar wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:00 pm
As for the procedure of his enlightenment, and how exactly it took place, the excerpt below from AN 4.77 has an answer.
Bhikkhus. there are these for inconceivable matters, that one should not try to conceive; One who tries to conceive them would reap either madness or frustration. What four?
1. The Range of the Buddhas is an inconceivable matter that one should not try to conceive; one who tries to conceive it would reap reap madness or frustration.
Thanks Pulsar but AN 4.77 does not appear relevant. Thank you for your contributions to this topic. :)
santa100 wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:18 pm
While it's true yoniso manisakara is one of the main themes of practice, one should be careful when putting it like the way above for it might give the false impression that it's the only necessary and sufficient element for the entire Path.
Thank you Santa100. The above point sounds reasonable, particularly when considering SN 45.55 says yoniso manasikara is the "forerunner" of the Path, comparing it to the "dawn" that precedes (pubbaṅgamaṃ) & is the preliminary sign (pubbanimittaṃ) of the rising (udayato) of "sun":
SN 45.55 wrote:Mendicants, the dawn is the forerunner and precursor of the sunrise.

Sūriyassa, bhikkhave, udayato etaṃ pubbaṅgamaṃ etaṃ pubbanimittaṃ, yadidaṃ—aruṇuggaṃ;

In the same way accomplishment in proper attention is the forerunner and precursor of the noble eightfold path for a mendicant.

evameva kho, bhikkhave, bhikkhuno ariyassa aṭṭhaṅgikassa maggassa uppādāya etaṃ pubbaṅgamaṃ etaṃ pubbanimittaṃ, yadidaṃ—yonisomanasikārasampadā.

A mendicant accomplished in proper attention can expect to develop and cultivate the noble eightfold path.

Yonisomanasikārasampannassetaṃ, bhikkhave, bhikkhuno pāṭikaṅkhaṃ—ariyaṃ aṭṭhaṅgikaṃ maggaṃ bhāvessati, ariyaṃ aṭṭhaṅgikaṃ maggaṃ bahulīkarissati.

https://suttacentral.net/sn45.55/en/sujato
Last edited by DooDoot on Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: SN 12.10 & SN 12.65: Did Gotama use yoniso manasikara to attain full enlightenment??

Post by cappuccino » Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:54 pm

DooDoot wrote: Did Gotama use "yoniso manasikara" as a primary means to gain full enlightenment ?
Silavant Sutta
For it is possible that a virtuous monk, attending in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant... not-self, would realize the fruit of stream-entry.
would realize the fruit of once-returning.
would realize the fruit of non-returning.
would realize the fruit of arahantship.

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