Dhamma-vicaya-sambojjhanga of 7sb and the 4th category of 4sp, Dhamma-anu-passsana, are one and the same

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
frank k
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Dhamma-vicaya-sambojjhanga of 7sb and the 4th category of 4sp, Dhamma-anu-passsana, are one and the same

Post by frank k » Sun May 26, 2019 6:15 pm

Is this commonly known?

I've suspected this for years, but only recently became thoroughly convinced.
Can you prove otherwise?
I'll keep a summary of the thread here:
https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... -and.html
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Re: Dhamma-vicaya-sambojjhanga of 7sb and the 4th category of 4sp, Dhamma-anu-passsana, are one and the same

Post by DooDoot » Sun May 26, 2019 9:32 pm

Probably not. If 2nd SB was the same as 4th SP then there would probably only be two factors of enlightenment.

Since the 4th SP in MN 118 is thoroughly unambiguous and since the 2nd SB is explained in detail in MN 118, it seems the Pali in MN 118 about the 2nd SB must be thoroughly examined.

In other words, what exactly is being investigated and examined with wisdom in the 2nd SB? What does the word "dhammaṃ" mean in this context? :shrug:
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Re: Dhamma-vicaya-sambojjhanga of 7sb and the 4th category of 4sp, Dhamma-anu-passsana, are one and the same

Post by SarathW » Sun May 26, 2019 10:33 pm

Please refer to the tabulation of the 37 factors of enlightenment in the following.
https://dhammawiki.com/index.php/37_fac ... ightenment

Five qualities are ovelap in 7 qualitis.
Hence five qualities in 7 qualities are not the same.
Perhaps the degree of each quality may not the same.
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Re: Dhamma-vicaya-sambojjhanga of 7sb and the 4th category of 4sp, Dhamma-anu-passsana, are one and the same

Post by sentinel » Mon May 27, 2019 5:00 am

frank k wrote:
Sun May 26, 2019 6:15 pm
Is this commonly known?


Can you prove otherwise?
Hi Frank ,


Here's the deal .

The dhamma in 7foe being investigated is the wholesome/unwholesome 。

Whereas , 4sp dhamma is contemplating the principle of how the dhamma arises and ceases。

Regards
:buddha1:

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Re: Dhamma-vicaya-sambojjhanga of 7sb and the 4th category of 4sp, Dhamma-anu-passsana, are one and the same

Post by frank k » Mon May 27, 2019 4:06 pm

excerpt from:
Dhamma-vicaya and Dhamma-anupasssana at first glance seem to have different roles and functions.

Let's look at some parallel examples, so you get a sense of how much latitude may be expected when two terms/concepts at first seem to be different,

No one would question that sati-indriya (of 5 indriya and 5 bala) is exactly the same as samma-sati (of 8aam) and 4sp (satipatttana), and sati-sambojjhanga (of 7sb).
But read the sati-indriya definition carefully in SN 48.9, it's very different than samma sati and 4sp definition.
...
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Re: Dhamma-vicaya-sambojjhanga of 7sb and the 4th category of 4sp, Dhamma-anu-passsana, are one and the same

Post by Srilankaputra » Mon May 27, 2019 6:05 pm

Not the same nor are they different. Rather satipattanas is like a spring or pump that waters all the Awakening factors.
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

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Re: Dhamma-vicaya-sambojjhanga of 7sb and the 4th category of 4sp, Dhamma-anu-passsana, are one and the same

Post by frank k » Tue May 28, 2019 7:30 pm

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Re: Dhamma-vicaya-sambojjhanga of 7sb and the 4th category of 4sp, Dhamma-anu-passsana, are one and the same

Post by frank k » Wed May 29, 2019 7:18 pm

https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... caya.html

some sutta passages highlighted.
AN 7.3 is especially nice, all the key words are there packed together. vipassana, closely related to Dhamma-anpassana, is packed right in there along with pañña and yoniso [mana-sikara].
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Re: Dhamma-vicaya-sambojjhanga of 7sb and the 4th category of 4sp, Dhamma-anu-passsana, are one and the same

Post by Dinsdale » Thu May 30, 2019 7:21 am

There isn't much detail on dhamma-vicaya in the suttas, but it appears closely related to sati, and seems to involve applying dhammic principles like anicca to observed experience.
I see sati and dhamma-vicaya as analogous to the scientific method, first collecting observations and then looking for patterns and relationships.

I see a correlation between dhamma-vicaya and the 4th frame of satipatthana, since both involve the application of dhammic principles, using various models of experience.
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Re: Dhamma-vicaya-sambojjhanga of 7sb and the 4th category of 4sp, Dhamma-anu-passsana, are one and the same

Post by DooDoot » Thu May 30, 2019 9:16 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 7:21 am
There isn't much detail on dhamma-vicaya in the sutta...
The detail is as follows:
Yasmiṃ samaye, bhikkhave, bhikkhu kāye kāyānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ, upaṭṭhitāssa tasmiṃ samaye sati hoti asammuṭṭhā.

Whenever a mendicant meditates by observing an aspect of the body, at that time their mindfulness is established and lucid.

Bhikkhus, on whatever occasion a bhikkhu abides contemplating the body as a body, ardent, fully aware, and mindful, having put away covetousness and grief for the world—on that occasion unremitting mindfulness is established in him.

On whatever occasion the monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world, on that occasion his mindfulness is steady & without lapse.

Bhikkhus, whenever a bhikkhu is one who lives constantly contemplating body in bodies ... is one who lives constantly contem­plating feeling in feelings ... is one who lives constantly contemplating mind in the mind ... is one who lives constantly contemplating Dhamma in dhammas, strives to burn up defilements, comprehends readily, and is mindful, in order to abandon all liking and disliking toward the world; then the sati of that bhikkhu thus established is natural and unconfused.

Yasmiṃ samaye, bhikkhave, bhikkhuno upaṭṭhitā sati hoti asammuṭṭhā, satisambojjhaṅgo tasmiṃ samaye bhikkhuno āraddho hoti. Satisambojjhaṅgaṃ tasmiṃ samaye bhikkhu bhāveti, satisambojjhaṅgo tasmiṃ samaye bhikkhuno bhāvanāpāripūriṃ gacchati.

At such a time, a mendicant has activated the awakening factor of mindfulness; they develop it and perfect it.

On whatever occasion unremitting mindfulness is established in a bhikkhu—on that occasion the mindfulness enlightenment factor is aroused in him, and he develops it, and by development, it comes to fulfilment in him.

When his mindfulness is steady & without lapse, then mindfulness as a factor for awakening becomes aroused. He develops it, and for him it goes to the culmination of its development.

Bhikkhus, whenever the sati of that bhikkhu thus established is natural and unconfused, then the mindfulness enlightenment factor (sati-sambojjhanga) is engaged by that bhikkhu and he develops it further and finally its development in him is perfected.

So tathāsato viharanto taṃ dhammaṃ paññāya pavicinati pavicayati parivīmaṃsaṃ āpajjati.

As they live mindfully in this way they investigate, explore and inquire into that principle with wisdom.

Abiding thus mindful, he investigates and examines that state with wisdom and embarks upon a full inquiry into it.

Remaining mindful in this way, he examines, analyzes & comes to a comprehension of that quality with discernment.

That bhikkhu when mindful in such a way selects, takes up, and scrutinizes these dhammas with wisdom.

Yasmiṃ samaye, bhikkhave, bhikkhu tathāsato viharanto taṃ dhammaṃ paññāya pavicinati pavicayati parivīmaṃsaṃ āpajjati, dhammavicayasambojjhaṅgo tasmiṃ samaye bhikkhuno āraddho hoti, dhammavicayasambojjhaṅgaṃ tasmiṃ samaye bhikkhu bhāveti, dhammavicayasambojjhaṅgo tasmiṃ samaye bhikkhuno bhāvanāpāripūriṃ gacchati.

At such a time, a mendicant has activated the awakening factor of investigation of principles; they develop it and perfect it.

On whatever occasion, abiding thus mindful, a bhikkhu investigates and examines that state with wisdom and embarks upon a full inquiry into it—on that occasion the investigation-of-states enlightenment factor is aroused in him, and he develops it, and by development it comes to fulfilment in him.

When he remains mindful in this way, examining, analyzing, & coming to a comprehension of that quality with discernment, then analysis of qualities as a factor for awakening becomes aroused. He develops it, and for him it goes to the culmination of its development.

Bhikkhus, whenever a bhikkhu is mindful in such a way, selects, takes up, and scrutinizes these dhammas with wisdom; then the investigation of dhammas factor of awakening (dhammavicaya sambojjhanga) is engaged by that bhikkhu and he develops it further and finally its development in him is perfected. When that bhikkhu selects, takes up, and scrutinizes these dhammas with wisdom, un­wavering energy is engaged by him.
dhamma
masculine (& n.)
Termination
singular
a-ending masc.

Accusative -ṃ
:candle:
Dinsdale wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 7:21 am
it appears closely related to sati, and seems to involve applying dhammic principles like anicca to observed experience.
The word "dhammaṃ" definitely appears to be singular. Therefore, the dhamma investigated with wisdom (in dhammavicayasambojjhaṅgo) appears to be... body or feelings or citta or Truth. :shrug: It seems only Buddhadasa's translation above agrees with your point of view Dinsdale; where as the translations of Sujato, Bodhi & Thanissaro appear vague. Buddhadasa's summarised use of the "plural" dhammas indicates the "dhammas" referred to are body; or feelings; or citta; or Dhammas. Where as the translations of Sujato, Bodhi & Thanissaro could be referring to "sati" (rather than the meditation objects) as the dhamma investigated.
Dinsdale wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 7:21 am
I see sati and dhamma-vicaya as analogous to the scientific method, first collecting observations and then looking for patterns and relationships.
Sounds reasonable.
Dinsdale wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 7:21 am
I see a correlation between dhamma-vicaya and the 4th frame of satipatthana, since both involve the application of dhammic principles, using various models of experience.
Dhamma-vicaya appears it might be seeing & examining kaya or vedana or citta or Dhamma (Truth) with wisdom. Where as the 4th frame of satipatthana appears to be only seeing Dhamma (Truth) with wisdom. Again, if we rely on MN 118 (rather than MN 10), we will be unconfused about what the 4th frame of satipatthana actually & uniquely is.

:smile:
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Re: Dhamma-vicaya-sambojjhanga of 7sb and the 4th category of 4sp, Dhamma-anu-passsana, are one and the same

Post by frank k » Thu May 30, 2019 10:20 am

https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... tice.html

That 7sb pattern in SN 46.3 is THE key pericope that appears so frequently in the EBT, including MN 118, and the anapana samyutta's SN 54 Ananda sutta which is slightly different than MN 118, and closer to SN 46.3 above.

Look at the SN 46.3 CAREFULLY how Dhamma is used from step 0, through step 1 sati, through step 2 Dhamma-vicaya. It's a causal sequence, and Dhamma has to retain the same meaning through those 3 steps.
the Dhamma in Dhamma-vicaya is referring to Buddha-dhamma-teaching memorized and recalled by sati.
Now in the process of doing Dhamma-vicaya, one may have to work with dhammas which may or may not be exactly the same as Dhamma memorized in step zero. But the Dhamma in Dhamma-vicaya is crystal clear Buddha-Dhamma-Teaching-and/or-principles.
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Re: Dhamma-vicaya-sambojjhanga of 7sb and the 4th category of 4sp, Dhamma-anu-passsana, are one and the same

Post by DooDoot » Thu May 30, 2019 1:36 pm

frank k wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 10:20 am
Look at the SN 46.3 CAREFULLY how Dhamma is used...
Irrelevant. In SN 46.3, the object of recollection is "the teaching". In MN 118, the specific fruition of such recollection is observing (anupassi) kaya, vedana, citta & Dhamma.

SN 46.3 is a general teaching. MN 118 is a specific teaching. Thus SN 46.3 does not override MN 118 in explaining MN 118.
frank k wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 10:20 am
the Dhamma in Dhamma-vicaya is referring to Buddha-dhamma-teaching memorized and recalled by sati.
Not in MN 118. In MN 118, the fruition of recollection of the teachings is observing (anupassi) kaya, vedana, citta & Dhamma.
frank k wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 10:20 am
Now in the process of doing Dhamma-vicaya, one may have to work with dhammas which may or may not be exactly the same as Dhamma memorized in step zero. But the Dhamma in Dhamma-vicaya is crystal clear Buddha-Dhamma-Teaching-and/or-principles.
It seems not clear to you, Mr Frank. :smile:
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Re: Dhamma-vicaya-sambojjhanga of 7sb and the 4th category of 4sp, Dhamma-anu-passsana, are one and the same

Post by frank k » Thu May 30, 2019 7:21 pm

https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... amma.html

MN 103 is a particularly good example, it has dhamma sutva, kusala and akusala all clumped together, making it clear kusala is refering to Dhamma-teaching, or both Dhamma-teaching and Dhamma-kusala-qualities. Since there is leeway and ambiguity, it's just plain wrong to translate kusala-dhamma as only skillful-qualities.
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Re: Dhamma-vicaya-sambojjhanga of 7sb and the 4th category of 4sp, Dhamma-anu-passsana, are one and the same

Post by DooDoot » Fri May 31, 2019 12:21 am

In MN 118, Dhamma-vicaya-sambojjhanga is simply investigating the various aspects of Sati-sambojjhanga with wisdom. There appears to be no need to complicate it. Thus the mind is not only investigating the characteristics of the meditation objects but also investigating the quality of mind & liberation when the mind abandons covetousness & distress in relation to the world.
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Re: Dhamma-vicaya-sambojjhanga of 7sb and the 4th category of 4sp, Dhamma-anu-passsana, are one and the same

Post by sentinel » Fri May 31, 2019 7:01 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 12:21 am
In MN 118, Dhamma-vicaya-sambojjhanga is simply investigating the various aspects of Sati-sambojjhanga with wisdom. There appears to be no need to complicate it. Thus the mind is not only investigating the characteristics of the meditation objects but also investigating the quality of mind & liberation when the mind abandons covetousness & distress in relation to the world.
If you could elaborate on aspects of sati factor ?
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