the real meaning of the cryptic formula in 4sp satipatthana

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
frank k
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Re: the real meaning of the cryptic formula in 4sp satipatthana

Post by frank k » Wed May 29, 2019 11:10 am

sunnat wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 4:47 pm
What is the correct understanding of the word 'contemplation' (anu-passana)
The best way to really understand an EBT term is observe it in its native habitat.
I translate anu-passana as "continuous-seeing", to emphasize that the contemplation when done properly, is continuous moment to moment, uninterrupted focus. Passati (he sees) and Dassana (vision), Right Ditthi (right view), vi-passana (clear-seeing) all have a close relationship.
The prefix anu, often has a meaning of "follow".

The fourth category of 4sp, all four examples in 16APS contain the anu-passana word in there.
Also, each tetrad (1-4, 5-8, 9-12, 13-16) as a group have a name (see subtitles) corresponding to each 4sp.
So observe the 'anupassana' beast in action, in 16 APS.
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Re: the real meaning of the cryptic formula in 4sp satipatthana

Post by ToVincent » Wed May 29, 2019 2:45 pm

frank k wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 11:10 am
I translate anu-passana as "continuous-seeing",...
Anupassī is an adjective.
If it was a gerund, as you use it, it would be anupassiya.

In the 4sp (the four ways to attain the acquisition - please see here for a correct translation of satipaṭṭhānā and sati - https://justpaste.it/53nmx),
anupassī appears only in the dhamma shebang. The first three are just added titles (kāyānupassī, etc.)
Indeed, the first three are concerned with paṭisaṃvedī (प्रतिसंविद् pratisaṃvid [ prati-saṃ-√ vid]) - not anupassī.
Paṭisaṃvedi (Sanskrit: प्रतिसंविद् pratisaṃvid (prati-saṃ-√ ववद vid): accurate (thorough) knowledge (RV.) of the particulars of anything.

--------
So in the paragraph related to dhamma, anupassī appears as follows:
aniccānupassī assasissāmī’ti sikkhati,
virāgānupassī assasissāmī’ti sikkhati,
etc.

Sikkhati (Sanskrit: śikṣati - inflected form of शक् śak) is the desiderative pr. ac. sg form of that verb, that has the meaning of "to be able to". Sikkhati in its deiderative form, is about having the "desire to be able to".

Therefore,
Aniccānupassī assasissāmī’ti sikkhati
translates as follow:
Breathing in, he desires to be able to (notice) the noticeable impermanence (or "the not one's owness" - https://justpaste.it/6lfcn).
[Edited:
or more literally:
He desires to be able to (do) : "I will breath in (noticing) the noticeable impermanence (or my not one's owness)].


Idem for virāgā, nirodhā, and paṭinissaggā.

The same way that anupassī appears in:
Kāye kāyānupassī viharāhi.
and translates as follows:
He fetches apart the noticeable body among the body.
______

Please, see the first eight steps of the 4sp here:
https://justpaste.it/1js3l

Absolutely nothing "cryptic" into that.
Only bad lexicography and grammar makes it so.
.
.
Last edited by ToVincent on Wed May 29, 2019 10:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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frank k
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Re: the real meaning of the cryptic formula in 4sp satipatthana

Post by frank k » Wed May 29, 2019 5:23 pm

ToVincent wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 2:45 pm

Anupassī is an adjective.
If it was a gerund, as you use it, it would be anupassiya.

In the 4sp (the four ways to attain the acquisition - please see here for a correct translation of satipaṭṭhānā and sati - https://justpaste.it/53nmx),
anupassī appears only in the dhamma shebang. The first three are just added titles (kāyānupassī, etc.)
I don't always use the correct grammatical case because it makes it harder to understand in plain English.
For example, yathaa bhutaa, B. Bodhi also translates it as "as it actually is", instead of a more literal "as it has come to be".
The kaye-Kaya-anupassi would be something like "the contemplator of the body who [contemplates] bodies", or something like that.

The fact that other suttas establish the correspondence between the 4 tetrads in 16APS to the 4sp, that's enough to correlate the practice of patisamvedi, passaddhi, and any other action in that context. In other words, anupassana is done in conjunction with the various actions performed in steps 1-12.
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Re: the real meaning of the cryptic formula in 4sp satipatthana

Post by ToVincent » Wed May 29, 2019 7:54 pm

frank k wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 5:23 pm
...
(Yathaa) bhutaa is a past participle. Not a present. So Bodhi is wrong in that case.
And the nuance is crucial.
That does not make Bodhi a lesser translator, though. He is definitely the best and most reliable.

------

"Contemplator" is not an adjective.
"Contemplative" is.
So the translation would hardly mean something adequate.
.
.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... - In this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------

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frank k
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Re: the real meaning of the cryptic formula in 4sp satipatthana

Post by frank k » Thu May 30, 2019 10:05 am

ToVincent wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 7:54 pm

(Yathaa) bhutaa is a past participle. Not a present. So Bodhi is wrong in that case.
And the nuance is crucial.
Why are you so dense? You don't have to agree with his (or my) translation choice, but at least you should use common sense that he probably wasn't "wrong" by accident, it was a deliberate choice to make the English convey his interpretation of the meaning.
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Re: the real meaning of the cryptic formula in 4sp satipatthana

Post by frank k » Thu May 30, 2019 7:18 pm

https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... uses.html
excerpt:

One more addition to the article:
the real meaning of the cryptic formula in 4sp sat...
I've gone through with a highlighter comparing KN Ud1.10 and SN 35.95 so you can't hide from the truth.

...
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Re: the real meaning of the cryptic formula in 4sp satipatthana

Post by ToVincent » Thu May 30, 2019 11:51 pm

I don't quite see it that way.
For instance, breath is a dhamma, as anything else coming from a khandha or a coaction of khandhas.

So if we consider the multiple definitions of sati (https://justpaste.it/53vyj), and that breath is a dhamma, we would have the following:
I don’t say that there is obtention (sati) of in-&-out breathing, if one would neglect mindfulness (sati), and not be discerning.
Nāhaṃ, bhikkhave, muṭṭhassatissa asampajānassa ānāpānassatiṃ vadāmi.
MN 118

The idea is to discern how our breath has come to be (not how "it is") .
To "obtain" (sati) in-&-out breathing, is to be mindful (viz. to recollect from the Teaching) that this body (breath) is not ours (SN 22.33).
That one must first control mindfully (sati*) the external influence upon it (influence that comes from path #1 - https://justpaste.it/1n1ii).
Then, once one is in the internal, one must be mindful/thoughtful (sati) about the breathing - and one must obtain the discernment of where that breath comes from further up, directly from the nāmarūpa nidāna (following path #2 - https://justpaste.it/1n1ii), according to what have become (yathābhūta).
Right samādhi possesses its proximate cause. When there is right samādhi, for one possessing right samādhi, the insight from knowledge according to what has come to be (yathābhūtañāṇadassana) possesses its proximate cause.
AN 5.168

* https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/sn35.245/14-15


.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... - In this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------

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Re: the real meaning of the cryptic formula in 4sp satipatthana

Post by DooDoot » Fri May 31, 2019 12:35 am

sunnat wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 4:47 pm
What is the correct understanding of the word 'contemplation'
The Pali word is "anupassi". It appears to mean to "repeatedly/continuously" ("anu") "observe" ("passi").
anupassati
to look at, contemplate, observe

https://suttacentral.net/define/anupassati
passati

to see
anu-

as prefix and preverb expresses: with, along; after, behind; subordinate to, inferior to; according to, in conformity with; severally one after the other; repeatedly

https://legacy.suttacentral.net/define/anu
:smile:
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Re: the real meaning of the cryptic formula in 4sp satipatthana

Post by frank k » Fri May 31, 2019 12:20 pm

ToVincent wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 11:51 pm
(discussing yatha bhuta)
I understand the technical difference you're talking about.
B. Bodhi and I made the choice of "as it actually is" because it's easier for an English speaking person to grok the main point.
The more accurate literal translation leads to many possible misunderstandings of the general idea.
Other parts of the sutta passage fill in the blanks of the subtle details you're talking about.

This is too long of a digression from the OP. If it's that important to you, you can start a separate thread. Thanks.
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Re: the real meaning of the cryptic formula in 4sp satipatthana

Post by ToVincent » Fri May 31, 2019 2:18 pm

frank k wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 12:20 pm
ToVincent wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 11:51 pm
(discussing yatha bhuta)
B. Bodhi and I ...
We don't ask translators to interpret the grammar and the lexicography. We ask them to stick to them, as close as possible.
.
.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... - In this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------

https://justpaste.it/j5o4

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Re: the real meaning of the cryptic formula in 4sp satipatthana

Post by ToVincent » Fri May 31, 2019 2:20 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 12:35 am
...
A proper lexicographic and grammatical study:

Again, anupassī is an adjective .

Anupassī = "being able to be" looked at, perceivable, noticeable.

And I hardly see how anu can be translated as "continuous" (uninterrupted - as in uninterrupted focus) along with what follows.


||||||||||||||||||||
PALI
||||||||||||||||||||

PTS definition:
Anu :
A. As preposition:
---------------------------
anu is only found occasionally:
(a) - with accusative (rare old Vedic function), in expressions of time like anu pañcāhaṁ = by 5 days - i. e. after (every) 5 days (cp. ved. anu dyūn = day by day).
(b) - with locative = alongside, with, by (e. g. a fire by the bank / along the road / with the wind).

B. As prefix:
------------------
(a) General character.
- Anu is frequently used as modifying (directional) element with well-defined meaning (“along”).

(b)
I. With verbs of motion: “along towards”.
(1) the motion viewed from the front backward = after, behind; esp. with verbs denoting to go, follow etc.
(2) the motion viewed from the back forward = for, towards an aim, on to, over to, forward.

II. With verbs denoting a state or condition:
(a) literal: along, at, to, combined with.
(b) applied: according to, in conformity with.

III
(a)(fig.) following after = second to, secondary, supplementary, inferior, minor, after, smaller.
(b) distributive = each, every, one by one, (one after one).

IV. As one of the contrasting (-comparative prefixes) [e. g. khuddânukhuddaka “small and still smaller”].


||||||||||||||||||||
SANSKRIT
||||||||||||||||||||

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
अनु anu [ ánu ]
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

As a prefix to verbs and nouns:
- after , along , alongside , lengthwise , near to , under , subordinate to , with.

When prefixed to nouns , especially in adverbial compounds:
- according to , severally , each by each , orderly , methodically , one after another , repeatedly.

As a separable preposition , with accusative:
- after , along , over , near to , through , to , towards , at , according to , in order , agreeably to , in regard to , inferior to.

As a separable adverb:
- after , afterwards , thereupon , again , further , then , next.


:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
अनुपश् anupaś [ anu-√ paś ]
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
- to look at, perceive, notice. (RV, ŚBr., BṛĀr.Up).

When a man clearly sees this self as god,
the lord of what was
and of what will be,
He will not seek to hide from him. (Olivelle)
yadaitam anupaśyaty atmānaṃ devam aṅjasā |
īśānaṃ bhūtabhavyasya na tato vijugupsate || BrhUp 4.4.15
*Note that Radhakrishnan translates it as "behold", in the same vein of a discernment - as in "noticeable" (like determining the presence of).

............................ ............
√ पश् paś [linked to dṛś]
.........................................
These following meanings are used before and after Buddha's time).
- to have insight or discernment. Mn. MBh.
- to learn , find out. Mn. MBh.
- to consider , think over , examine. Mn. MBh.
- to foresee. Mn. MBh.
- to live to see , experience , partake of, undergo , incur. Mn. MBh.

These following definitions are used before the time of Buddha.
- to be a spectator. Mn.
- sight or eye. RV.
- behold , look at , observe , perceive , notice RV.
- to see with the spiritual eye. RV., Br., ŚāṅkhŚr.?


:::::::::::::::::::::::::

paśyāmi, paśyāvaḥ, paśyāmaḥ, paśyasi, paśyathaḥ, paśyatha, paśyati, paśyataḥ, paśyanti, paśye, paśyāvahe, paśyāmahe, paśyase, paśyethe, paśyadhve, paśyate, paśyete, paśyante, apaśyam, apaśyāva, apaśyāma, apaśyaḥ, apaśyatam, apaśyata, apaśyat, apaśyatām, apaśyan, apaśye, apaśyāvahi, apaśyāmahi, apaśyathāḥ, apaśyethām, apaśyadhvam, apaśyata, apaśyetām, apaśyanta, paśyeyam, paśyeva, paśyema, paśyeḥ, paśyetam, paśyeta, paśyet, paśyetām, paśyeyuḥ, paśyeya, paśyevahi, paśyemahi, paśyethāḥ, paśyeyāthām, paśyedhvam, paśyeta, paśyeyātām, paśyeran, paśyāni, paśyāva, paśyāma, paśya, paśyatam, paśyata, paśyatu, paśyatām, paśyantu, paśyai, paśyāvahai, paśyāmahai, paśyasva, paśyethām, paśyadhvam, paśyatām, paśyetām, paśyantām, paśyat, paśyantī, paśyamāna, paśyamānā

::::::::::::::::::::::::::

PRE-BUDDHIST TEXTUAL REFERENCES

'The wise ever behold that highest step of Vishnu, fixed like an eye in the heaven.' For he who has set up the sacrificial stake has hurled the thunderbolt: 'See ye that conquest of Vishnu!' he means to say when he says, 'The wise ever behold that highest step of Vishnu, fixed like an eye in the heaven.'
tadviṣṇoḥ paramam padaṃ sadā paśyanti sūrayaḥ divīva cakṣurātatamiti vajraṃ vā eṣa prāhārṣīdyo yūpamudaśiśriyattā viṣṇorvijitim paśyatetyevaitadāha yadāha tadviṣṇoḥ paramam padaṃ sadā paśyanti sūrayaḥ divīva cakṣurātatamiti
ŚBr. 3.7.1.17

He then goes to the Sadas, saying, 'Behold thou the heaven, behold the air!' whereby he means to say, 'May I through thee, the dakshinâ, see the (heavenly) world.'
atha sado 'bhyaiti | vi svaḥ paśya vyantarikṣamiti vi tvayā dakṣiṇayā lokaṃ khyeṣamityevaitadāha
ŚBr. 4.3.4.17

When those (Udgâtris) chant (the stotra), and when he (the Hotri) recites (the sastra) afterwards, then he (the Adhvaryu) offers that (vital fluid, in the form of Soma) unto him (Agni-Pragâpati) at the Vashat-call; and thus this vital fluid enters him. For, indeed, they do not see it to be the Great Rite that lies there being praised, nor the Great Litany, but it is Agni alone they see; for Agni is the self (body), and thus those two, the Rik and the Sâman, enter him in the form of the vital fluid; and thus they both enter (join) the Yagus.
te yadā stuvate yadānuśaṃsati athāsminnetaṃ vaṣaṭkṛte juhoti tadenameṣa raso'pyeti na vai mahāvratamidaṃ stutaṃ śeta iti paśyanti no mahadidamukthamityagnimeva paśyantyātmā hyagnistadenamete ubhe raso bhūtvāpīta ṛkca sāma ca tadubhe ṛkṣāme yajurapītaḥ
ŚBr. 10.1.1.6

Then they said to the eye 'Chant (the Udgitha) for us'. 'All right', said the eye and chanted for them. The common good that comes of the eye, it secured for the gods by chanting, while the fine seeing it utilised for itself. The Asuras knew that through this chanter the gods would surpass them. They charged it and struck it with evil. That evil is what we come across when one sees improper things.
atha ha cakṣur ūcus tvaṃ na udgāyeti |
tatheti tebhyaś cakṣur udagāyat |
yaś cakṣuṣi bhogas taṃ devebhya āgāyat |
yat kalyāṇaṃ paśyati tad ātmane |
te 'vidur anena vai na udgātrātyeṣyantīti |
tam abhidrutya pāpmanāvidhyan |
sa yaḥ sa pāpmā yad evedam apratirūpaṃ paśyati |
sa eva sa pāpmā
BrhUp 1.3.4

'This is your self that is within all'. 'Which is within all, Yajnavalkya?' 'You cannot see that which is the witness of vision; - (You can't see the seer who does the seeing - Olivelle) (You cannot see the seer of seeing - Nikhilānanda) - you cannot hear that which is the hearer of hearing; you cannot think that which is the thinker of thought; you cannot know that which is the knower of knowledge. This is your self that is within all; everything else but this is perishable.'
eṣa ta ātmā sarvāntaraḥ |
katamo yājñavalkya sarvāntaraḥ |
na dṛṣṭer draṣṭāraṃ paśyeḥ |
na śruteḥ śrotāraṃ śṛṇuyāḥ |
na mater mantāraṃ manvīthā |
na vijñāter vijñātāraṃ vijānīyāḥ |
eṣa ta ātmā sarvāntaraḥ |
ato 'nyad ārtam |
BrhUp 3.4.2

Then they meditated on (the deity of) eye as Udgitha; the demons pierced it with evil. Therefore with the eye one sees both the sightly and the unsightly, for it has been pierced with evil.
atha ha cakṣurudgīthamupāsāṃcakrire taddhāsurāḥ pāpmanā vividhustasmāttenobhayaṃ paśyati darśanīyaṃ ādarśanīyaṃ ca pāpmanā hyetadviddham
ChUp. 1.2.4

There is this verse about it: “He who sees this (Atman) does not see death nor illness nor any sorrow. He who sees this sees all things and obtains all things in all ways.”
tadeṣa śloko na paśyo mṛtyuṃ paśyati na rogaṃ nota duḥkhatām sarvam ha paśyaḥ paśyati sarvamāpnoti sarvaśa iti
ChUp. 7.26.2

While being indeed furnished with wings and tail, people do not see him as one having wings and tail: hence one does not see the child in the womb in its proper shape; but hereafter they (will) see him as one having wings and tail, and hence one sees the child after it is born in its proper shape.
taṃ vai pakṣapucavantameva santam | na pakṣapucavantamiva paśyanti tasmādyonau garbhaṃ na yathārūpam paśyantyathainamamutra pakṣapucavantam paśyanti tasmājjātaṃ garbhaṃ yathārūpam paśyanti
ṢBr. 7.1.1.20

.
.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... - In this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------

https://justpaste.it/j5o4

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Re: the real meaning of the cryptic formula in 4sp satipatthana

Post by DooDoot » Fri May 31, 2019 8:33 pm

ToVincent wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 2:20 pm

A proper lexicographic and grammatical study:

- to look at, perceive, notice. (RV, ŚBr., BṛĀr.Up).

When a man clearly sees this self as god,
the lord of what was
and of what will be,
He will not seek to hide from him. (Olivelle)
yadaitam anupaśyaty atmānaṃ devam aṅjasā |
īśānaṃ bhūtabhavyasya na tato vijugupsate || BrhUp 4.4.15
*Note that Radhakrishnan translates it as "behold", in the same vein of a discernment - as in "noticeable" (like determining the presence of).
:jumping: :roll: I don't know. I just tried to copy the below from Bhikkhu Sujato:
Sujato wrote:The prefix anu- suggests ‘following, conforming, after’, and lacks the analytical sense of vi-. It is a mode of contemplation that ‘conforms’ to the relevant context; thus anupassanā is normally the second member of a compound where the first member defines the specific subject of meditation: ‘contemplation of…’. In psychological contexts anu- implies ‘continuing’. Thus vitakketi means ‘to think’; anuvitakketi means ‘to keep on thinking’. The same usage occurs in the definition of sati as ‘memory’ that we have encountered above. There two terms are used: sara and anussara, which mean ‘remembers, keeps in memory.’ There is a similar nuance in two of the terms in the Abhidhamma gloss for the jhāna factor vicāra—anusandhanatā and anupekkhanatā—which mean ‘sustained application, sustained observation’. Anupassanā is semantically parallel with anupekkhanatā, and so also means ‘sustained observation’. This sustained, continuous aspect of anupassanā is emphasized in the verses we saw above. The Visuddhimagga’s commentary makes this sense explicit: ‘he keeps re-seeing (anu anu passati) with jhāna knowledge and insight knowledge’.

page 203: http://santifm.org/santipada/wp-content ... Sujato.pdf
This also reminds me of Bhikkhu Buddhadasa's translation:
Buddhadasa wrote:...that bhikkhu is considered one who lives constantly contemplating body in bodies, strives to burn up defile­ments, comprehends readily and is mindful, in order to abandon all liking and disliking toward the world.

https://www.dhammatalks.net/Books3/Bhik ... PENDIX%20E
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Re: the real meaning of the cryptic formula in 4sp satipatthana

Post by ToVincent » Fri May 31, 2019 9:40 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 8:33 pm
I am just feeding you with facts.

Not with "suggested" things, or from the Abhidhamma, Visuddhimagga- nor with Buddhadasa's translation from Thai by Santikaro Bhikkhu. Gee!

Dhammaṃ cetasā anuvitakketi anuvicāreti manasā­nupekkhati.
But he ponders, examines, and mentally inspects [all of them in conformity with] the Dhamma (transl. Bodhi - my added notes in brackets)
AN 5.26

Dwelling thus withdrawn, one recollects that Dhamma and thinks it over. (Bodhi)
So tathā vūpakaṭṭho viharanto taṃ dhammaṃ anussarati anuvitakketi.
SN 46.3


I don't see where there is such a meaning as "keep on thinking". He just think "in conformity" (PTS) with the dhamma.

Sujato is just drowning us under useless additions, and interpretations here.
Dubious, useless; and not so EBT.
I would definitely keep Bodhi as my first choice as translator (no frills added).
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Last edited by ToVincent on Fri May 31, 2019 10:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
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In this world with its ..., māras, ... - In this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
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DooDoot
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Re: the real meaning of the cryptic formula in 4sp satipatthana

Post by DooDoot » Fri May 31, 2019 10:42 pm

ToVincent wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 9:40 pm
I am just feeding you with facts.
Unlikely, based on past history.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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ToVincent
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Re: the real meaning of the cryptic formula in 4sp satipatthana

Post by ToVincent » Fri May 31, 2019 10:46 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 10:42 pm
ToVincent wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 9:40 pm
I am just feeding you with facts.
Unlikely, based on past history.
Ah ok !
Yet "in conformity with" comes from the PTS. !?!
:
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... - In this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------

https://justpaste.it/j5o4

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