the real meaning of the cryptic formula in 4sp satipatthana

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
frank k
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the real meaning of the cryptic formula in 4sp satipatthana

Post by frank k » Thu May 23, 2019 4:19 pm

https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... a-in.html
excerpt:

One thing that puzzles me deeply, and this is such a fundamental and important part of Buddhism, I haven't seen anyone that I'm aware of translate into English and interpret the 4sp satipatthana formula completely correctly. The closest is maybe B. Analayo...
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ToVincent
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Re: the real meaning of the cryptic formula in 4sp satipatthana

Post by ToVincent » Thu May 23, 2019 9:26 pm

Kāye kāyānupassī viharāhi.

Anupassin/anupassī is an adjective.
अनुपश् anupaś [ anu-√ paś ], in Sanskrit, means to look at , perceive, notice. (RV, ŚBr., BṛĀr.Up, ChUp.).
The adjective from the verb "to notice" is "noticeable".
We have therefore: kāye kāyānupassī = noticeable body.

Viharati
वि vi
meaning " in two parts " ; and opp. to [ sam ]
- apart (RV.)
√ हृ hṛ
- to fetch (RV.)


So the translation might finally be:

kāye kāyānupassī viharāhi.
he fetches apart the noticeable body among the body (singular).
...
he fetches apart the noticeable feeling, among the feelings (plural).
...
he fetches apart the noticeable citta , among the citta (singular).
...
he fetches apart the noticeable phenomena , among the phenomenas (plural).


Note:
The locative serves to denote the where, i.e., the scene of an action. But it is capable of expressing such nuances as are denoted by the English preposition "among", etc.

imesu pañcasu kāmaguṇesu aññatarasmiṃ
“in one among these five kinds of pleasures”
M III.114

The (partitive) Locative Case - §160 & 167
Wijesekera - Syntax of the Cases in the Pali Nikayas


_______

Yatha bhuta means literally: "according to what HAVE BECOME".
PAST PARTICIPLE, for Buddha's sake.

_______

- Physical body as a whole, and breath as a part of it.
When one relates to one's anatomy and breathes along the vagus nerve (preferably after meal), and stimulate that nerve such as to trigger the hedonic spot in the PBN (ParaBrachial nuclei), through the NTS (Nucleus Tractus Solitarii) - (pictures at https://www.ecosia.org/) - then one can feel what it means to fetch the noticeable body among the body; as well as what "breathing internally" means.
Pre-requisites apply.

- Among all the feelings, the feeling (pīti) from the hedonic spot is the noticeable one.
(One might need to experience the more subtle feeling of sukha related to the citta (even still "polluted"), as in Ānāpānasati).

- The citta that becomes gradually "unpolluted" from wants and sensory stimuli, is the noticeable citta among the "ceto" (the polluted citta). [For instance, a citta that still wants, is usually called "cetanā"] - The cit has different states in the different nidānas; but it remains a single entity (singular).
This is just the process of "establishing the citta" [samādhi] (心定 / 定 = to establish) https://justpaste.it/5x298 - It is a progressive process.

- The dhamma that one experiences (made of khandhas & dhatus,) is the noticeable dhamma among the other dhammas.
.
.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... - In this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------

https://justpaste.it/j5o4

sentinel
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Re: the real meaning of the cryptic formula in 4sp satipatthana

Post by sentinel » Fri May 24, 2019 4:32 am

frank k wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 4:19 pm
https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... a-in.html
excerpt:

One thing that puzzles me deeply, and this is such a fundamental and important part of Buddhism, I haven't seen anyone that I'm aware of translate into English and interpret the 4sp satipatthana formula completely correctly. The closest is maybe B. Analayo...
Hi Frank ,

So do you take it translation body as body , feeling as feeling and Not body in the bodies or body amongst bodies ?
:buddha1:

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DooDoot
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Re: the real meaning of the cryptic formula in 4sp satipatthana

Post by DooDoot » Fri May 24, 2019 5:30 am

frank k wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 4:19 pm
The closest is maybe B. Analayo... [mental qualities]...
Stuck in the suspect MN 10, it will be speculation upon speculation. For the suspect MN 10, it seems B. Sujato's "principles" is closest. But for MN 118, "Dhamma" is higher "Truth" of the three characteristics & Nibbana. In other words, it is unlikely MN 10, probably not even spoken by the Lord Buddha, could contain "real meanings".
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frank k
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Re: the real meaning of the cryptic formula in 4sp satipatthana

Post by frank k » Fri May 24, 2019 3:12 pm

sentinel wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 4:32 am
Hi Frank ,

So do you take it translation body as body , feeling as feeling and Not body in the bodies or body amongst bodies ?
Yes. The other options may be grammatically correct and workable as a teaching, but they're not the primary meaning intended here.
I came to this conclusion without any reference to MN 10 or DN 22.
Will add more sutta references and proof soon.
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Re: the real meaning of the cryptic formula in 4sp satipatthana

Post by DooDoot » Sat May 25, 2019 3:16 am

frank k wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 3:12 pm
sentinel wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 4:32 am
translation body as body , feeling as feeling and Not body in the bodies or body amongst bodies ?
Yes. The other options may be grammatically correct and workable as a teaching, but they're not the primary meaning intended here.
Grammatically, its not the teaching. Therefore, "body as body", etc, is obviously not the intended meaning. Logically, it seems wrong because such an interpretation would be saying "anupassī" is high level "vipassana" of seeing the "emptiness" of the five aggregates. MN 149, for example, appears to clearly distinguish anupassī" from "vipassana".
When the noble eightfold path is developed, the following are fully developed: the four kinds of mindfulness meditation [anupassī], the four right efforts, the four bases of psychic power, the five faculties, the five powers, and the seven awakening factors.

Tassa evaṃ imaṃ ariyaṃ aṭṭhaṅgikaṃ maggaṃ bhāvayato cattāropi satipaṭṭhānā bhāvanāpāripūriṃ gacchanti, cattāropi sammappadhānā bhāvanāpāripūriṃ gacchanti, cattāropi iddhipādā bhāvanāpāripūriṃ gacchanti, pañcapi indriyāni bhāvanāpāripūriṃ gacchanti, pañcapi balāni bhāvanāpāripūriṃ gacchanti, sattapi bojjhaṅgā bhāvanāpāripūriṃ gacchanti.

And these two qualities proceed in conjunction:

Tassime dve dhammā yuganandhā vattanti—

serenity and discernment [insight].

samatho ca vipassanā ca.

https://suttacentral.net/mn149/en/sujato
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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frank k
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Re: the real meaning of the cryptic formula in 4sp satipatthana

Post by frank k » Sat May 25, 2019 2:50 pm

Grammatically, its not the teaching.
Could we get some second opinions from pali grammar experts here?

I've seen other professional translators use the "body as body" translation. I don't know if they interpret the meaning exactly the same way I do.
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frank k
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Re: the real meaning of the cryptic formula in 4sp satipatthana

Post by frank k » Sat May 25, 2019 3:24 pm

I've appended some new material to the article to prove my case:
https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... a-in.html
exhibit one: bahiya sutta
exhibit two: dhamma anu dhamma
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frank k
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Re: the real meaning of the cryptic formula in 4sp satipatthana

Post by frank k » Sun May 26, 2019 6:07 pm

frank k wrote:
Sat May 25, 2019 3:24 pm
I've appended some new material to the article to prove my case:
https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... a-in.html
exhibit one: bahiya sutta
exhibit two: dhamma anu dhamma
added exhibit 3:

Exhibit #3: why even bother with body in the body cryptic confusion?
If the correct interpretation of "kaye-kaya-anu-passi" was one of the existing acceptable ones, such as:

"contemplating body in the body",

"contemplating body among bodies",

"contemplating an aspect of the body",



Why would the Buddha even need to throw that cryptic structure at us in the first place, when it would be much more clear to remove the cryptic part and simply have:

He abides contemplating the body, ardent, ...

He abides contemplating experienced-sensations, ardent, ...

He abides contemplating the mind, ardent, ...

He abides contemplating Dhamma, ardent, ...

It doesn't require Sherlock Holmes, the world's greatest detective, to figure out that there are many Dhammas to choose from, which to contemplate in any given moment, or that there are many type of vedanas that can be contemplated, etc. And you don't need Captain Obvious to point out that you can't do all of them all at the same and there is value to focus on a single frame or category at times.



So if the Buddha is going to throw a cryptic sounding phrase into one of the most fundamental and important core piece of Dhamma instruction, also known as 4sp satipatthana, there's a high probability there's something important to convey.
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Re: the real meaning of the cryptic formula in 4sp satipatthana

Post by frank k » Mon May 27, 2019 4:53 pm

frank k wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 4:19 pm
https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... a-in.html
excerpt:

One thing that puzzles me deeply, and this is such a fundamental and important part of Buddhism, I haven't seen anyone that I'm aware of translate into English and interpret the 4sp satipatthana formula completely correctly. The closest is maybe B. Analayo...
added exhibit #4:
excerpt:
Exhibit #4: Dhamma is your island, refuge

Take a look at these suttas:
SN 47.9, SN 47.13, SN 47.14 on being your own Dhamma island, refuge, with no other refuge. How to do that? The Buddha then gives the STED 4sp satipatthana instructions. Think about that carefully. That terse formula, with the cryptic "body as body, ..., Dhamma as Dhamma...", is serving as the official representative of the entire essence of Dhamma, of the 4 noble truths, a concise set of instructions to follow, that will lead you to the end of suffering, to nirvana.

I'm not aware of any of the other factors, in the 37bp awakening wings, ever being given such an exalted status serving as "an Island, your only Dhamma refuge".
...
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Re: the real meaning of the cryptic formula in 4sp satipatthana

Post by sunnat » Mon May 27, 2019 6:13 pm

It is wonderful that we have the collected words of the Buddha with us today, even more so in the sources of the internet.
* the Buddha regularly told people not to just believe him or any other source, assumption, inference, deduction etc but to walk the path themselves.
* the various translations available makes discerning the right meanings difficult. Various sources claim to know the correct meanings.
Both of these points are dealt with by practising the path.
The MahaSatipatthana Sutta is addressed to the monks. Therefore being established in the silas is assumed. The how of body in body is clearly starting with the practice of anapanasati, equanimously, continuously, ardently and on through the many ways of observing the body in body. It is through the practice that the correct understanding is realised. The experience starts with looking from the outside as an observer and while doing so a time comes when one enters that being observed or in a sense detaches from the object being observed and becomes a free floating awareness within it and there is mere awareness without any attachment or clinging to the observed. It's an experience that's hard to explain and even if one could do so well the person hearing or reading the explanation or description cannot correctly understand unless it's been experienced and then it's after the fact. That's how a lot of the path is and helps to understand how someone with little intellectual understanding can be well established and someone who may have a very through knowledge of the suttas handicapped by some pre judice. This is certainly not a polemic against seeking an intellectual understanding but rather an exhortation to look to the understanding gained from practice as a guide to the correct translation. At the same time a study of even the imperfectly translated suttas can help in practice as a guide and confirmation that one is indeed on the right path. (ditto vedana, citta, and dhammanupassana)

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Re: the real meaning of the cryptic formula in 4sp satipatthana

Post by DooDoot » Mon May 27, 2019 8:53 pm

sunnat wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 6:13 pm
* the Buddha regularly told people not to just believe him or any other source, assumption, inference, deduction etc but to walk the path themselves.
* the various translations available makes discerning the right meanings difficult. Various sources claim to know the correct meanings.

Both of these points are dealt with by practising the path.
A translation follows the Pali grammar rules of "case declension". I recall its not "body as body" because formerly I too personally like this translation of "body as body". Below is something on the internet:
If you then also know that the locative case (translatable with “in”) can also mean “among”, the translation becomes quite easy: he contemplates on a feeling amongst (all possible) feelings.

And the locative case is unmistakable in all cases. (eg vedanāsu vedanānupassī viharati ) The “part of the whole” locative (partitive locative) is quite common and does make a lot of sense here. It is used in phrases such as tassaṃ parisāyaṃ koci "a certain one among the assembly*. As Wijasekara points out this locative can have the function of selection of one amongst many. He says: “specification (i.e. selection or separation) the loc. or the gen. can optionally be used.” (Goolge “syntax of the pali cases” to find this excellent work.)

The locative does not carry the meaning of “as”. So “the body as the body” is not possible. I think the ablative may have that meaning. Wijasekara will tell you, but I must admit I have read only very little of it.

https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/wh ... tc/3255/24
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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sentinel
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Re: the real meaning of the cryptic formula in 4sp satipatthana

Post by sentinel » Tue May 28, 2019 7:16 am

frank k wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 4:53 pm


I'm not aware of any of the other factors, in the 37bp awakening wings, ever being given such an exalted status serving as "an Island, your only Dhamma refuge".
...
The question is , how should one categorized the 4 satipattana vs 7 foe ?
:buddha1:

frank k
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Re: the real meaning of the cryptic formula in 4sp satipatthana

Post by frank k » Tue May 28, 2019 3:43 pm

frank k wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 4:19 pm
https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... a-in.html
excerpt:

One thing that puzzles me deeply, and this is such a fundamental and important part of Buddhism, I haven't seen anyone that I'm aware of translate into English and interpret the 4sp satipatthana formula completely correctly. The closest is maybe B. Analayo...
I've added exhibit #5, the clincher, SN 47.4,
and a closing argument.

I'll look into the grammar thing a little more, but even if I'm wrong about "body as body", and we go with majority interpretation of "body in body", it's still cryptic, and my intepretation of it still applies.
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Re: the real meaning of the cryptic formula in 4sp satipatthana

Post by sunnat » Tue May 28, 2019 4:47 pm

What is the correct understanding of the word 'contemplation'

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