Satta asaññino: Why are non-percipient beings related to the 4th jhana ???

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
auto
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Re: Satta asaññino: Why are non-percipient beings related to the 4th jhana ???

Post by auto » Wed Apr 24, 2019 1:59 pm

non-percipent beings related to 4th jhana,

possible is that upekkha, equanimity is outside the All(sabbe)

https://suttacentral.net/mn49/en/sujato
So Brahmā, I am not your equal in knowledge, still less your inferior. Evampi kho ahaṃ, brahme, neva te samasamo abhiññāya, kuto nīceyyaṃ?
Rather, I know more than you. Atha kho ahameva tayā bhiyyo.
Having directly known water … Āpaṃ kho ahaṃ, brahme … pe …
fire … tejaṃ kho ahaṃ, brahme … pe …
air … vāyaṃ kho ahaṃ, brahme … pe …
creatures … bhūte kho ahaṃ, brahme … pe …
gods … deve kho ahaṃ, brahme … pe …
the Creator … pajāpatiṃ kho ahaṃ, brahme … pe … Brahmā … brahmaṃ kho ahaṃ, brahme … pe …
the gods of streaming radiance … ābhassare kho ahaṃ, brahme … pe …
the gods replete with glory … subhakiṇhe kho ahaṃ, brahme … … pe …
the gods of abundant fruit … vehapphale kho ahaṃ, brahme … pe …
the Overlord … abhibhuṃ kho ahaṃ, brahme … pe …
replete with glory + gods of abundant fruit, the Overlord.
Having directly known all as all, and having directly known that which does not fall within the scope of experience based on all, I did not identify with all, I did not identify regarding all, I did not identify as all, I did not identify ‘all is mine’, I did not enjoy all. sabbaṃ kho ahaṃ, brahme, sabbato abhiññāya yāvatā sabbassa sabbattena ananubhūtaṃ tadabhiññāya sabbaṃ nāpahosiṃ sabbasmiṃ nāpahosiṃ sabbato nāpahosiṃ sabbaṃ meti nāpahosiṃ, sabbaṃ nābhivadiṃ.
there is experience what is beyond the scope of the All.
Consciousness that is invisible, infinite, radiant all round—that’s what is not within the scope of experience based on earth, water, fire, air, creatures, gods, the Creator, Brahmā, the gods of streaming radiance, the gods replete with glory, the gods of abundant fruit, the Overlord, and the all.
Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ anantaṃ sabbato pabhaṃ, taṃ pathaviyā pathavattena ananubhūtaṃ, āpassa āpattena ananubhūtaṃ, tejassa tejattena ananubhūtaṃ, vāyassa vāyattena ananubhūtaṃ, bhūtānaṃ bhūtattena ananubhūtaṃ, devānaṃ devattena ananubhūtaṃ, pajāpatissa pajāpatittena ananubhūtaṃ, brahmānaṃ brahmattena ananubhūtaṃ, ābhassarānaṃ ābhassarattena ananubhūtaṃ, subhakiṇhānaṃ subhakiṇhattena ananubhūtaṃ, vehapphalānaṃ vehapphalattena ananubhūtaṃ, abhibhussa abhibhuttena ananubhūtaṃ, sabbassa sabbattena ananubhūtaṃ.
i think its sane to assume that there is no perception of experiences in 4th jhana what are based on the All.

https://suttacentral.net/sn35.23/en/sujato
And what is the all? Kiñca, bhikkhave, sabbaṃ?
It’s just the eye and sights, the ear and sounds, the nose and smells, the tongue and tastes, the body and touches, and the mind and thoughts. Cakkhuñceva rūpā ca, sotañca saddā ca, ghānañca gandhā ca, jivhā ca rasā ca, kāyo ca phoṭṭhabbā ca, mano ca dhammā ca— This is called the all. idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, sabbaṃ.
it seem like 4th jhana beings doesn't perceive using ear and sound etc.


oh, fail..i understand wrong or not? what is better interpretation?

https://suttacentral.net/sn48.36/en/sujato
And what is the faculty of equanimity? Katamañca, bhikkhave, upekkhindriyaṃ?
Neither pleasant nor unpleasant feeling, whether physical or mental. Yaṃ kho, bhikkhave, kāyikaṃ vā cetasikaṃ vā nevasātaṃ nāsātaṃ vedayitaṃ—
This is the faculty of equanimity. idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, upekkhindriyaṃ.

from above Sutta quote, upekkha is not physical nor mental. Seem like outside the scope of the All.

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Lankamed
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Re: Satta asaññino: Why are non-percipient beings related to the 4th jhana ???

Post by Lankamed » Thu Apr 25, 2019 3:19 am

Ancient meditators (in the line of Alarakalama, Uddakaramaputta) knew the problem lies with "Sanna". World is created by Sanna it's anihilated by Sanna. So they were looking for a refuge from the pilage of Sanna. Maybe they were looking something beyond Sanna perhaps... So they were examining Sanna and how to find an escape from it.


As you climb the ladder of Jhana you give up considerable amount of Sanna that contribute to the vividness of the world. At neither perception nor non perception there exist only very subtle form of Sanna ( subtlest form of Sanna about Sanna bound by the impermenece , that's how I understand it).

Forth Jhana is the last rupa Jhana which only has one pointedness and equaminity. Similar to the last formless Jhana in someways. Some meditators who arrived at this state saw not something beyond Sanna but equaminity, but it's still attached to Sanna. Still bound by it. Born of it. Worldly being would consider equaminity to be a higher achievement but these folk saw that equaminity is still a Sanna. They were at the end of Rupa Jhana yet still haven't found refuge.

In this state they meditated on "Dhi Cittam". This phrase is suppose to say " disgusting cittam, shamefull cittam". And that repulsion towards Sanna or citta caused the state called Asanna satta in forth Jhana realm.

Or it could be they meditated on Dhi cittam from the day one but could not go beyond last Rupa Jhana because they didn't focus on relinquishing form. They were merely concerned on giving up mind.

In case you want sutta support look for the phrase "Dhi Cittam". I remember reading it somewhere but couldn't recall where.

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