These go to eleven: the significance of the number 11 in the EBT

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
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frank k
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These go to eleven: the significance of the number 11 in the EBT

Post by frank k »

https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... e-of.html

Can you think of other ways where number 11 plays a role in the EBT?
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Re: These go to eleven: the significance of the number 11 in the EBT

Post by frank k »

Just thought of another case of "11", so that's 3 big cases associated with nirvana while in jhana.

AN 11.16 AN 11.17 Aṭṭhakanāgara [Dasama]: same as MN 52, 11 doors to deathless. 4j + 4bv + first 3 arupa. Similar to AN 9.36, attaining nirvana while in jhana

10 being a natural limit (10 fingers),
11 is symbolic of "going over the cliff" and plunging into nirvana, exceeding and transcending what we normally think of as boundaries or limits.

Video at bottom of article gives a nice sense of "going over the cliff"
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Re: These go to eleven: the significance of the number 11 in the EBT

Post by DooDoot »

AN 11.2 - there is no need for an act of will, 'May my mind grow concentrated.' :meditate:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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STED 4bv brahmavihara formula

Post by frank k »

appended 4bv section to end of blog post:

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ToVincent
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Re: STED 4bv brahmavihara formula

Post by ToVincent »

frank k wrote: Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:20 pm appended 4bv section to end of blog post:

https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... e-of.html
A quick note on what you underlined in the 4bv:

There is usually not enough differentiation between mano, ceto and citta in translations.

If mano is brain. And citta the (immaterial) mind; then we have many "existential" kinds of citta.
- Ceto as the somewhat "subconscious" - note that anusaya (latent tendencies) is always ascribed to ceto, not to citta.
- Citassa is the "existential citta / the citta projected in satta. (https://justpaste.it/211kn)
- Cetanā is the state of ceto in action (thought, intention, purpose, will) - while ceto per se, is the "latent" mind).
- Cittena is the "instrumental" citta.
Etc.

And cetovimutti is the liberation FROM ceto.

.
And metta should beam on every side of the "existential citta" that has somewhat paited with the brain (mano).
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Re: STED 4bv brahmavihara formula

Post by Volo »

ToVincent wrote: Sat Apr 27, 2019 12:30 am And cetovimutti is the liberation FROM ceto.
Why is that?
- Citassa is the "existential citta / the citta projected in satta. (https://justpaste.it/211kn)

The defiled citassa, Visakha, is cleansed by exertion.
upakkiliṭṭhassa, visākhe, cittassa upakkamena pariyodapanā hoti.
AN 3.70

_______

Assa = opt. of atthi [Sk. syāt >> {opt. ac. sg.} √ अस् as]
√ अस् as
- to become (BṛĀrUp.)

Citta+assa >> the particular use of a noun compounded with a verb.

Cittassa (citta-assa,) is the existential form of the Citta.
This (i.e. cittassa=citta + assa) might have some interest if there wouldn't be upakkiliṭṭhassa in AN 3.70. For some reason you don't make it upakkiliṭṭha + assa. Of course, cittassa is a Gen/Dat of citta, of which upakkiliṭṭha is agreed in case as Adj should. So literally we have:

upakkiliṭṭhassa, visākhe, cittassa upakkamena pariyodapanā hoti.
"Defiled (adj), Visakha, mind's by exertion purification is". OR "The purification of defiled mind is by exertion".


It seems you are also confusing "compound" and "sandhi". Assa can be "sandhi-ed" to anything, but never compouned (or prove otherwise). Verbs are usually are not considered to form compounds at all. Although some grammarians occasionally talk about "verbal compounds", but this is restricted to bhū and kar. And it is a different phenomenon, they are more verbs with verbal prefixes than compounds. I.e. bahula "abundant" + kar => bahulīkaroti "to increase": this is not a compound like Tappurisa, etc, but simply modifications of verb's meaning by a prefix (which is adj in this case).
Last edited by Volo on Sat Apr 27, 2019 2:05 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: These go to eleven: the significance of the number 11 in the EBT

Post by Dhammanando »

MN 33

"... possessed of eleven qualities, [a bhikkhu] cannot become one to reach growth, increase and maturity in this Dhamma and Discipline."
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
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Re: STED 4bv brahmavihara formula

Post by ToVincent »

Volo wrote: Sat Apr 27, 2019 1:01 am ...
You:
upakkiliṭṭhassa, visākhe, cittassa upakkamena pariyodapanā hoti.
"Defiled (adj), Visakha, mind's by exertion purification is". OR "The purification of defiled mind is by exertion".

Bhodhi:
The defiled mind is cleansed by exertion.
Thanissaro:
The defiled mind is cleansed through the proper technique.
Sujato:
A corrupt mind is cleaned by applying effort.

I like your translation better.
Let's put the subject where it belongs.
So I have taken off the AN 3.70 extract.

But how do you explain SN 47.4 & SN 1.62 above stated ?

______

You're right, some grammarians occasionally talk about "verbal compounds", and not "sandhi".
But they don't say that they are "restricted" to bhū & kar; but add "as" as well. [Sk. syāt >> {opt. ac. sg.} √ अस् as = to become / in Pali, assa = siyā).
"Existential" verbs, with some kind of "becoming" involved.
______


Why liberation FROM ceto ?

Because ceto is the corrupted/defiled citta.
Maybe we can still call it the "existential" citta in sata, as somewhat "citassa" ?
The worst form ceto can take is when it is paired with mano = manosañcetanā - the culprit of the infamous maintenance of consciousness (SN 12.11 - SN 12.39).

By the way, when I hear prominent Bhikkhus still translating mano, citta and ceto as just .. "mind"; I am quite surprised.
This is the point I am trying to make.

________

We will come to it alright.
I am in an optative mood today
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Re: These go to eleven: the significance of the number 11 in the EBT

Post by ToVincent »

Dhammanando wrote: Sat Apr 27, 2019 1:23 am MN 33
"... possessed of eleven qualities, [a bhikkhu] cannot become one to reach growth, increase and maturity in this Dhamma and Discipline."
Unfortunately not everyone is a bhikku.
Personally I can't be, for two simple reasons.
The first one is that the Buddha disallowed schisms. So I feel compeled to be, at best, an anagārika on my own; with the suttas with parallels as my dhamma. [Which, I already said, doesn't not (or should not) endanger any sect - because I comply with their Teaching - might I be wrong in interpret it].
The second is that the Buddha said that the good dhamma would only last 500 years (AN 8.51/MA 116).

But that is personnal.
And that is a very profound dilemma indeed.
How could I interpret MN 33 in this context?.
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Re: STED 4bv brahmavihara formula

Post by Volo »

ToVincent wrote: Sat Apr 27, 2019 12:52 pm But how do you explain SN 47.4 & SN 1.62 above stated ?

SN 47.4
citte cittānupassino viharatha ātāpino sampajānā ekodibhūtā vippasannacittā samāhitā ekaggacittā, cittassa yathābhūtaṃ ñāṇāya

Dwell contemplating mind in mind … for knowledge (ñāṇāya, Dat) of mind (cittassa, Dat/Gen) as it is (yathābhūtaṃ).

SN 1.62:
Cittena nīyati loko,
cittena parikassati;
Cittassa ekadhammassa,
sabbeva vasamanvagū'ti

The world is led by mind;
By mind it is dragged around.
Everything (sabbe (Pl) + va) under control (vasam) went (anvagū = 3rd Aor, Pl of anugacchati)
Of mind (Cittassa, Gen/Dat), of [that] one thing (ekadhammassa, Gen/Dat).

Again in your translation you left out assa from ekadhammassa.
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Re: These go to eleven: the significance of the number 11 in the EBT

Post by Dhammanando »

ToVincent wrote: Sat Apr 27, 2019 12:55 pm
How could I interpret MN 33 in this context?.
As only one of the eleven items (i.e., #10) is exclusively applicable to those gone forth, if I were in your position and of your persuasion I should focus on the other ten.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
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Re: STED 4bv brahmavihara formula

Post by ToVincent »

Volo wrote: Sat Apr 27, 2019 2:09 pm
ToVincent wrote: Sat Apr 27, 2019 12:52 pm But how do you explain SN 47.4 & SN 1.62 above stated ?

SN 47.4
citte cittānupassino viharatha ātāpino sampajānā ekodibhūtā vippasannacittā samāhitā ekaggacittā, cittassa yathābhūtaṃ ñāṇāya

Dwell contemplating mind in mind … for knowledge (ñāṇāya, Dat) of mind (cittassa, Dat/Gen) as it is (yathābhūtaṃ).
I had noticed the double genitive in SN 1.62.
But I had one more thing to say.
So now that I have taken away SN 1.62, there is still that SN 47.4 that bothers me.

Here what I had to say:
If in SN 1.62, it is quite clear to say that "mind" (citta - that "one thing") posseses (genitive) a control.

Your literal translation:
Everything under control went of citta, of [that] one thing.


Can we say the same about the the case in SN 47.4.
Here, your dative/genitive are a bit confusing.

Because you translate yathābhūtaṃ as "as it is", one is under the impression that one possesses a knowledge (ñāṇāya) of citta. However, with ñāṇāya as a correct dative, it is the citassa's knowlege that is at stake; not one's own knowledge.
Your translation:
Dwell contemplating citta in citta … for knowledge of citta as it is.
.

I have a hard time to see ñāṇāya as a proper dative in your translation.

Instead, one might consider this to be more proper:
Dwell contemplating citta in citta ... according to how citassa has become insight (ñāṇāya).

Here, the dative insight (ñāṇāya,) denotes the thing with reference to which the action proceeds. And even on a local grammarian point of view, it is also the fact of recipiency.
Aren't these the characteristics of the dative?
So one might wonder what the thing with reference to which the action proceeds, and the fact of recipiency.

Insight is both the final cause and the effect of the action.
The action is processed by citassa. Not by one's own action, as seems to be in your case.
One just contemplates.
"Khandhas (and their ensuing dhammas,) are not yours", says Buddha. There is no (continuous) self.

---
The all sentence makes more sense:

Citte cittānupassino viharatha ātāpino sampajānā ekodibhūtā vippasannacittā samāhitā ekaggacittā, cittassa yathābhūtaṃ ñāṇāya.

Contemplate the noticeable citta (viz. existential), in the (immaterial) citta; ardent, with discrimination, having become transcended to one, with a serenely distinctive citta, (with a citta) established, who is (in) one - according to how citassa has become insight (~insightful).
SN 47.4


______

Note:
Yathābhūtaṃ = according to "what" has become.
NOT "as it is".
Still wondering how people still stick to this embarrassing error.
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Re: STED 4bv brahmavihara formula

Post by Volo »

ToVincent wrote: Sat Apr 27, 2019 7:37 pm I have a hard time to see ñāṇāya as a proper dative in your translation.
It is a very common "dative of purpose": for which purpose something is done (in this case for knowledge). It can also be translated as infinitive: "[in order] to know citta's yathābhūtaṃ".

To see that cittassa is a Dat/Gen of citta and not "citta + assa" we can simply compare with other 3 satipatthanas in the same sutta:

...kāyassa yathābhūtaṃ ñāṇāya
...vedanānaṃ yathābhūtaṃ ñāṇāya
...cittassa yathābhūtaṃ ñāṇāya
...dhammānaṃ yathābhūtaṃ ñāṇāya

Kāya is masc Sg in -a, vedanā is fem Pl in -ā, citta is neut Sg in -a, dhammā is masc Pl in -a. They all have corresponding Dat/Gen endings of their class of nouns.
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Re: STED 4bv brahmavihara formula

Post by ToVincent »

Volo wrote: Sun Apr 28, 2019 11:15 am It is a very common "dative of purpose":...
Great Volo, great!

I do understand how common is this "dative of purpose".
And I understand why we are contemplating (the "sensorial") citta (or body, or feeling, or dhammas) in (the immaterial) citta (body, feeling, dhammas) … for the knowledge of them.

But my question remains:
Is there more to the "common" ?
Are all these saṅkhāras and their ensuing dhammas (ALSO) ALL optatives (assa)?
Are some just "not" (optative)? - or are some "both"? - And where does the necessary "common" purpose dative, gives way to the more complex and sublimated optative/wishful implementation, for a higher purpose.
The purpose of citta is not as "common" as the purpose of feeling. And as I said before, the knowledge of citta rules over "our" own knowledge.

I explain.

Wonderful Sanskrit/Pali lexicography & grammar that convey different meanings & categories, so subtly complemental and full-blown.

Know how the immaterial saṅkhāras have come to be - (as in becoming existential in the sensory world) - seems to be the basic rule.

To know how these saṅkhāras (kāyasaṅkhāro, vacīsaṅkhāro, cittasaṅkhāro) that passes through the Nāmarūpa nidāna, and have descended into satta (according to what have come to be - yathābhūta), is what is required in the first place.
How these saṅkhāras have become physical body with breath; different thoughts and speeches (words); feelings and perceptions (and also intentions [will], as per SA definition).
And how their coaction (saṅkhāra/sam-kṝ), have in turn, produced dhammas.
And how all this is not "ours", is what one should first understand.

But on a higher level, I suppose that it is up to us to understand whose existential part (√ अस् as) is wishful (optative/assa) - [wishfull not willfull] - in their existentiality. I suppose that it is up to us to understand what are their exact functions and purposes of these saṅkhāras, their constituents and ensuing dhammas. I suppose that it is up to us to understand which one still acts on it's own (wishfulness), and which ones are just there to be brought to existence and/or experienced; and willfully prolonged.
I suppose that it is up to us to understand that we are contemplating citta in citta … for the knowledge of this (polluted/upakkiliṭṭha) citta, as it has come to be, BUT (also) how (the optative "sensory") cittassa has become insight (~insightful).

As stated in the SA 621 parallel:
寂靜於心;受、心、法法觀念住,乃至於法得遠離。
Quieted in citta; with feelings, and citta ; abide contemplating dharmas in dharmas (or citta in citta), even fully detached from dharmas.”


Note:
Lexicographically, we have seen the double meaning of the word "sati". Mindfulness as accute awareness; but also as "obtention".
There is always in sati, the obtention of something, underlying this "mindfulness".
There is in Sanskrit (and Pali) lexicography, more than it seems.
I am not a grammarian; but it seems that the same applies to grammar.
And of the two or more meanings or categories, the question remains: "which one comes to prevail at the end" ?

Note:
I know how difficult it is to understand this wish of the "sensorial" citta, to escape the world of senses (intrinsic Reason behind?), when one's mind has been trained in the Humean and Lockean philosophy all along.
However Buddhism is neither one. Citta does not belong to the world of senses (saḷāyatana & below nidāna).
Nor is Buddhism the "universal" Upanishadic or Vedantic philosophy (unity of a personal self with a universal self, or making one with nature and the rest).
.
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Re: These go to eleven: the significance of the number 11 in the EBT

Post by frank k »

I was just reading MN 33 and noticed the 11 factors, and while updating the blog article and this thread, noticed B. Dhammanando had already pointed that out. Blog updated.

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