Origination of feelings

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
DarrenM
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Origination of feelings

Post by DarrenM »

SN 36.23 says:
“There are, bhikkhu, these three feelings: pleasant feeling, painful feeling, neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling. This is called feeling. With the arising of contact there is the arising of feeling. Craving is the way leading to the origination of feeling. With the cessation of contact there is the cessation of feeling.

Craving is described as arising in dependence on Feeling in Dependent Origination. Why the other way around here?
“Householder, you have provided the community of monks with robes, alms food, lodgings, & medicinal requisites for the sick, but you shouldn’t rest content with the thought, ‘We have provided the community of monks with robes, alms food, lodgings, & medicinal requisites for the sick.’ So you should train yourself, ‘Let’s periodically enter & remain in seclusion & rapture.’ That’s how you should train yourself.”
AN 5.176- Rapture
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Nicolas
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Re: Origination of feelings

Post by Nicolas »

My understanding:
The sutta is modeled on the schemata for the Four Noble Truths: thing, its origin, its cessation, the path to its cessation.
In the Four Noble Truths, we have: the origin of dukkha is craving.
This sutta is reprising the role of craving from the Four Noble Truths.
Craving leads to birth, which leads to contact, which leads to renewed feeling. As such, craving can be said to lead to feeling.
santa100
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Re: Origination of feelings

Post by santa100 »

DarrenM wrote:Craving is described as arising in dependence on Feeling in Dependent Origination. Why the other way around here?
It'd make more sense if we re-arrange/pair up the questions and answers in SN 36.23:
1. What now is feeling? Answer: 3 feelings: pleasant, painful, and neither-painful-nor-pleasant.

2. What is the origin of feeling? Answer: Contact. (Q2. complements Q4)

4. What is the cessation of feeling? Answer: Cessation of Contact.

3. What is the way leading to the origination of feeling? Answer: Craving. (Q3. complements Q5)

5. What is the way leading to the cessation of feeling? Answer: the Noble Eightfold Path.
thomaslaw
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Re: Origination of feelings

Post by thomaslaw »

santa100 wrote: Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:58 am
DarrenM wrote:Craving is described as arising in dependence on Feeling in Dependent Origination. Why the other way around here?
It'd make more sense if we re-arrange/pair up the questions and answers in SN 36.23:
1. What now is feeling? Answer: 3 feelings: pleasant, painful, and neither-painful-nor-pleasant.

2. What is the origin of feeling? Answer: Contact. (Q2. complements Q4)

4. What is the cessation of feeling? Answer: Cessation of Contact.

3. What is the way leading to the origination of feeling? Answer: Craving. (Q3. complements Q5)

5. What is the way leading to the cessation of feeling? Answer: the Noble Eightfold Path.
According to Choong Mun-keat, "feeling" in the 3. (i.e. craving is the way leading to the arising of feeling) refers to "mental feeling" (i.e. cetasikaa vedanaa: repulsion, desire, ignorance) (p. 118, n. 40; cf. pp. 110-111, in the book The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism).
santa100
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Re: Origination of feelings

Post by santa100 »

thomaslaw wrote: Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:47 am According to Choong Mun-keat, "feeling" in the 3. (i.e. craving is the way leading to the arising of feeling) refers to "mental feeling" (i.e. cetasikaa vedanaa: repulsion, desire, ignorance) (p. 118, n. 40; cf. pp. 110-111, in the book The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism).
Nothing new there. Feeling/Vedana's always been grouped within the Cetasika group. The CMA just made it further fine-grained with:
1. Cetasika > Annasamana > SabbaCittaSadharana > 7 elements of: phassa, vedana, sanna, cetana, ekaggata, jivitindriya, and manasikara; Vedana in turns is of 5-fold: sukha, dukkha (physical); somanassa, domanassa (mental), and upekkha.
paul
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Re: Origination of feelings

Post by paul »

In terms of right effort there are ‘unwholesome states not yet arisen’ where feeling has the potential to result in new craving.
There are also ‘already arisen unwholesome states’ including the fundamental craving resulting in rebirth. This is where craving precedes feeling.
thomaslaw
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Re: Origination of feelings

Post by thomaslaw »

santa100 wrote: Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:11 am
thomaslaw wrote: Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:47 am According to Choong Mun-keat, "feeling" in the 3. (i.e. craving is the way leading to the arising of feeling) refers to "mental feeling" (i.e. cetasikaa vedanaa: repulsion, desire, ignorance) (p. 118, n. 40; cf. pp. 110-111, in the book The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism).
Nothing new there. Feeling/Vedana's always been grouped within the Cetasika group. The CMA just made it further fine-grained with:
1. Cetasika > Annasamana > SabbaCittaSadharana > 7 elements of: phassa, vedana, sanna, cetana, ekaggata, jivitindriya, and manasikara; Vedana in turns is of 5-fold: sukha, dukkha (physical); somanassa, domanassa (mental), and upekkha.
"Bodily feeling" (kaayikaa vedanaa: unpleasant, pleasant, and neither-unpleasant-nor-pleasant feelings) is not the same as "mental feeling" (cetasikaa vedanaa), according to the SN sutta.
santa100
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Re: Origination of feelings

Post by santa100 »

thomaslaw wrote: Fri Nov 30, 2018 5:26 am "Bodily feeling" (kaayikaa vedanaa: unpleasant, pleasant, and neither-unpleasant-nor-pleasant feelings) is not the same as "mental feeling" (cetasikaa vedanaa), according to the SN sutta.
Like already mentioned, CMA put feeling under the Cetasika group, and it could be 5-fold, including both physical and mental there. If you think KayaVedana is something sitting outside of Cetasika, please provide sutta/comy. backup references.
thomaslaw
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Re: Origination of feelings

Post by thomaslaw »

santa100 wrote: Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:49 pm
thomaslaw wrote: Fri Nov 30, 2018 5:26 am "Bodily feeling" (kaayikaa vedanaa: unpleasant, pleasant, and neither-unpleasant-nor-pleasant feelings) is not the same as "mental feeling" (cetasikaa vedanaa), according to the SN sutta.
Like already mentioned, CMA put feeling under the Cetasika group, and it could be 5-fold, including both physical and mental there. If you think KayaVedana is something sitting outside of Cetasika, please provide sutta/comy. backup references.
See SN 36.6 (= SA 470) (pp. 109-111 in Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism): Kayika vedana is not the same as cetasika vedana.
santa100
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Re: Origination of feelings

Post by santa100 »

thomaslaw wrote: Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:12 pm See SN 36.6 (= SA 470) (pp. 109-111 in Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism): Kayika vedana is not the same as cetasika vedana.
I know SN 36.6, the Dart Sutta. Please provide the exact quote where it says KayaVedana sits outside the Cetasika group? Everyone already know feeling can be physical or mental, but where do you see it says physical feeling sits outside the Cetasika group, as opposed to the classification in Comprehensive Manual of Abdhidhamma?
thomaslaw
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Re: Origination of feelings

Post by thomaslaw »

santa100 wrote: Sat Dec 01, 2018 2:12 am
thomaslaw wrote: Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:12 pm See SN 36.6 (= SA 470) (pp. 109-111 in Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism): Kayika vedana is not the same as cetasika vedana.
I know SN 36.6, the Dart Sutta. Please provide the exact quote where it says KayaVedana sits outside the Cetasika group? Everyone already know feeling can be physical or mental, but where do you see it says physical feeling sits outside the Cetasika group, as opposed to the classification in Comprehensive Manual of Abdhidhamma?
The sutta SN36.6 clearly does not say physical feeling or bodily feeling "kayika vedana" sits inside the Cetasika group or "cetasika vedana". :thumbsup:
santa100
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Re: Origination of feelings

Post by santa100 »

thomaslaw wrote: Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:19 am The sutta SN36.6 clearly does not say physical feeling or bodily feeling "kayika vedana" sits inside the Cetasika group or "cetasika vedana". :thumbsup:
Seems like you've never read CMA? you equate "Cetasika group" to be the same as "Cetasika vedana", which is wrong. Do you know how many mental factors within the CMA's "Cetasika" group? Fifty-two! And Feeling/Vedana is only one of these 52. Feeling does sit within the Cetasika group and it is of 5-fold: 2 physical/Kayikanca; 2 mental/Cetasikanca; and 1 neutral. And here's the root of your confusion: you mistook Cetasikanca/mental feeling to be the same thing as the CMA's "Cetasika" group of 52 mental factors. They are totally different.
thomaslaw
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Re: Origination of feelings

Post by thomaslaw »

santa100 wrote: Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:03 am
thomaslaw wrote: Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:19 am The sutta SN36.6 clearly does not say physical feeling or bodily feeling "kayika vedana" sits inside the Cetasika group or "cetasika vedana". :thumbsup:
Seems like you've never read CMA? you equate "Cetasika group" to be the same as "Cetasika vedana", which is wrong. Do you know how many mental factors within the CMA's "Cetasika" group? Fifty-two! And Feeling/Vedana is only one of these 52. Feeling does sit within the Cetasika group and it is of 5-fold: 2 physical/Kayikanca; 2 mental/Cetasikanca; and 1 neutral. And here's the root of your confusion: you mistook Cetasikanca/mental feeling to be the same thing as the CMA's "Cetasika" group of 52 mental factors. They are totally different.
So, according to the SN sutta, kayika vedana is not the same as cetasika vedana. The CMA's "Cetasika" group of 52 mental factors is simply not found in the Vedana Samyutta.
santa100
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Re: Origination of feelings

Post by santa100 »

thomaslaw wrote: Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:30 am So, according to the SN sutta, kayika vedana is not the same as cetasika vedana. The CMA's "Cetasika" group of 52 mental factors is simply not found in the Vedana Samyutta.
Again, you don't have to keep saying that physical feeling is not the same as mental feeling. Everyone already knew that. Now whether you want to believe what CMA says or not is entirely your own business.
thomaslaw
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Re: Origination of feelings

Post by thomaslaw »

santa100 wrote: Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:50 am
thomaslaw wrote: Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:30 am So, according to the SN sutta, kayika vedana is not the same as cetasika vedana. The CMA's "Cetasika" group of 52 mental factors is simply not found in the Vedana Samyutta.
Again, you don't have to keep saying that physical feeling is not the same as mental feeling. Everyone already knew that. Now whether you want to believe what CMA says or not is entirely your own business.
The point is the SN sutta about the two feelings (kayika vedana and cetasika vedana) is opposed to the "Cetasika" classification in Comprehensive Manual of Abdhidhamma.
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