It's here...
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/a- ... layo/11354
It's just reached the 150th post.
It's here...
While Ajahn Mun was alone and learned much of his meditation techniques by trial and error, formally he had -- of course -- a preceptor and was properly ordained into a lineage. So your reading of his biography is not entirely right.
p. 4:
At the age of fifteen he ordained as a novice in his village monastery where he developed an enthusiasm for the study of Dhamma, memorizing the texts with exceptional speed. A young novice of affable character, he never caused his teachers or fellows any trouble.
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When he reached age twenty-two, he felt an urge to ordain as a monk. So, for that purpose, he took leave of his parents. Not wanting to discourage his aspirations and having also kept the hope that their son would ordain again someday, they gave their permission. To this end, they provided him with a complete set of a monk’s basic requisites for his ordination. On June 12, 1893, 2 he received his Bhikkhu ordination at Wat Liap monastery in the provincial town of Ubon Ratchathani.
His upajjhãya was the Venerable Ariyakawi; his kammavãcariya was Phra Khru Sitha; and his anusãsanãcariya was Phra Khru Prajuk Ubonkhun. 3 He was given the monastic name “Bhýridatta”. After his ordination, he took residence at Wat Liap in Ãcariya Sao’s vipassanã meditation center.
Yes, but it is not the time when he developed his wilderness practice, his meditation etc, he did not learn the ways of the Thai Forest Tradition with his preceptor.
There was no teacher to teach him the practice and meditation that he developed and became famous for, right? So I don't see how Aj. Thanissaro's argument still stands for now...
I saw my omission too late to add another sentence, to prevent people lto fall into this misunderstanding. But the explanation is right in my quote: "he took residence at Wat Liap in Ãcariya Sao’s vipassanã meditation center."Faelig wrote: ↑Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:15 pmYes, but it is not the time when he developed his wilderness practice, his meditation etc, he did not learn the ways of the Thai Forest Tradition with his preceptor.
There was no teacher to teach him the practice and meditation that he developed and became famous for, right? So I don't see how Aj. Thanissaro's argument still stands for now...
Also, and I did not know this myself, even though Ajahn Mun did not sit in the formal Pali exams of the Thai government, he seems to have been more or less fluent in Pali. So he was not naive about the Dhamma in a scholastic sense, and of course he was i8n later years closely aligned with Chao Khun Upãli, wo was quite a renowned Buddhist scholar in Thailand.p.5 ff.:
When Ãcariya Mun first began practicing vipassanã at Ãcariya Sao’s center, he meditated constantly, internally repeating the word “buddho”, the recollection of the Buddha, as he preferred this preparatory Dhamma theme above all others.
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This was a dream nimitta, an omen confirming his belief that if he persevered in his efforts, he would undoubtedly discover a path for attaining what he sought. From then on, with renewed determination Ãcariya Mun meditated intensively, unrelenting in his efforts to constantly repeat “buddho” as he conducted all his daily affairs. At the same time, he very carefully observed the austere dhutanga practices which he undertook at the time of his ordination, and continued to practice for the rest of his life.
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At one point during his meditation training at Wat Liap, Ãcariya Mun’s citta ‘converged’ into a state of calm and a vision arose spontaneously." ... "For a full three months, Ãcariya Mun continued to meditate in this way.
p. 16:
In his early years of practice, Ãcariya Mun often wandered dhutanga in the company of Ãcariya Sao, comforted in the knowledge that he had a good, experienced teacher to lend him support. But when he asked his teacher to advise him on specific problems arising in his meditation, Ãcariya Sao invariably replied: “My experiences in meditation are quite different from yours. Your citta is so adventurous, tending always toward extremes. One moment it soars into the sky, only to plunge deep into the earth the next. Then, after diving to the ocean floor, it again soars up to walk meditation high in the sky. Who could possibly keep up with your citta long enough to find a solution? I advise you to investigate these matters for yourself and find your own solutions.” Ãcariya Sao never gave him enough concrete advice to really help him, so Ãcariya Mun was forced to solve his own problems. Sometimes, he nearly died before discovering a way past some of the more intractable problems he faced.
Ãcariya Mun described his teacher as someone with a smooth, serene temperament who inspired deep devotion.
p. 18:
Ãcariya Mun often accompanied Ãcariya Sao on his excursions wandering dhutanga across the provinces of the Northeast region. Due to differences in personality, their meditation experiences varied in some respects; but each very much enjoyed the other’s company. By nature, Ãcariya Sao preferred to say very little. He was a reluctant teacher, especially of the laity. Occasionally obliged to give instruction to lay supporters, he was always very frugal with words.
p. 320:
à CARIYA M UN ’ S PROFICIENCY in chanting the suttas was unrivaled. He chanted suttas alone for many hours every night without fail. He would chant long discourses, like the Dhamma-cakka-pavattana Sutta and the Mahã Samãya Sutta, nearly every night. Occasionally, he translated the meaning of the suttas for our benefit, translations based on his own personal experience. He spoke directly to their essential meaning, often bypassing the strict rules of Pãli grammar normally used to maintain uniformity in translations.
The undeniable clarity of his translations allowed his audience to glimpse the fundamental message of the ancient texts he quoted. Amazingly, he translated Pãli better than the accomplished scholars, though he had never studied Pãli in any formal way. No sooner had he mentioned a Pãli phrase than, without even a pause, he had translated it as well in a quick, fluent style that defied belief.
I think the main concern of Ven. Thanissaro is their Vinaya training, when the rules, they don't like are rejected (very serious offenses, like sanghadisesa):
Ajahn Mun definitely had a Vinaya training.Further, I examine the kind of training he himself is offering to bhikkhunīs by looking at his treatment of the First Council, the council at which the beginnings of the Dhamma and Vinaya as we know it were laid down. In an attempt to question the validity of some of the garudhammas, he asserts in FHNO and Saṅgīti that the monks at this council, as led by Ven. Mahā Kassapa, represented a faction of the Saṅgha whose views and practices were at odds with the Buddha’s.
However, even though it has no basis in the texts, Anālayo’s interpretation of this issue shows what kind of training is being offered to new bhikkhunīs: a training that calls the whole Dhamma and Vinaya into question, and opens the way for bhikkhus and bhikkhunīs to reject any rule in the Vinaya that doesn’t fit in with their untrained ideas of wisdom or compassion.