Dhammapada an EBT?

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
sphairos
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Re: Dhammapada an EBT?

Post by sphairos » Sat Nov 03, 2018 2:40 pm

All the credit to him for giving this at least (he said reference numbers not yet thoroughly verified):
Dhp 28 - Yogabhāṣya 1 40
Dhp 47 - Śhāntiparva. 9939. Mahābhārata
Dhp 48 - Śhāntiparva. 6540. Mahābhārata
Dhp 106 - Manusmṛti 5. 53
Dhp 109 - Manusmṛti 2. 121
Dhp 127 - Garudapurāṇa Adyāṣa 113‒20
Dhp 129 - Hitopadeśa 1. 2
Dhp 131 - Mahābhārata 13. 5565 & Manusmṛti 5. 45
Dhp 150 - Manusmṛti 6. 77
Dhp 161 - Garuda Purāna 119 Adyāya 19
Dhp 200 - Mahābhārata 12. 9917
Dhp 223 - Mahābhārata
Dhp 260 - Manusmṛti 2. 158
Dhp 287 - Mahābhārata 12. 175
Not much, huh ? ;)

Now, how are we supposed to check these "correspondences" , if the "reference numbers" aren't verified ? Shall we read all those texts ? And what on Earth does "Dhp 127 - Garudapurāṇa Adyāṣa 113‒20" mean? There is 8 paragraphs/lines that correspond to just 2 Dhammapada's lines ? Seems odd ...

And what are these "correspondences"? Let's check "Dhp 28 - Yogabhāṣya 1 40"

Dhammapada

127.
28.

Pamādaṃ appamādena, yadā nudati paṇḍito;

Paññāpāsādamāruyha, asoko sokiniṃ pajaṃ;

Pabbataṭṭhova bhūmaṭṭhe [bhummaṭṭhe (sī. syā.)], dhīro bāle avekkhati.

Buddharakkhita/Bodhi

28. Just as one upon the summit of a mountain beholds the groundlings, even so when the wise man casts away heedlessness by heedfulness and ascends the high tower of wisdom, this sorrowless sage beholds the sorrowing and foolish multitude.

Yogabhāṣya 1 40

paramāṇuparamamahattvānto 'sya vaśīkāraḥ || YS_1.40 ||
sūkṣme niviśamānasya paramāṇvantaṃ sthitipadaṃ labhata iti. sthūle niviśamānasya paramamahattvāntaṃ sthitipadaṃ cittasya. evaṃ tām ubhayīṃ koṭim anudhāvato yo 'syāpratīghātaḥ sa paro vaśīkāraḥ. tadvaśīkārāt paripūrṇaṃ yoginaś cittaṃ na punar abhyāsakṛtaṃ parikarmāpekṣata iti. 1.40

atha labdhasthitikasya cetasaḥ kiṃsvarūpā kiṃviṣayā vā samāpattir iti, tad ucyate ---

Here is the translation:

https://archive.org/stream/yogasystemof ... 6/mode/2up

So, no parallel at all.

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StormBorn
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Re: Dhammapada an EBT?

Post by StormBorn » Sat Nov 03, 2018 4:00 pm

sphairos wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 2:40 pm
Not much, huh ? ;)
Already mentioned ;)
StormBorn wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:15 am
Some Dhammapada stanzas are taken from Hindu texts such as Mahābhārata and Manusmṛti. I said taken from because they contradict with some suttas in four basic Nikayas.
sphairos wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 2:40 pm
Your "list" cannot be trusted...
Already mentioned a warning too :smile:
StormBorn wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 2:11 pm
All the credit to him for giving this at least (he said reference numbers not yet thoroughly verified):
However, as I mentioned here, having the stanza or the Dhamma/meaning of it somewhere else in the first four nikāyas would actually prove legitimacy. For example: Dhp 109 contradicts with MN 135 (see here).

Pāli Dhp 109: “Abhivādanasīlissa, niccaṃ vaddhāpacāyino; Cattāro dhammā vaḍḍhanti, āyu vaṇṇo sukhaṃ balaṃ.
Gāndhārī Dhp 172: “Ahivadaṇaśilisa nica vridhavayariṇo catvari tasa vardhadi ayo kirta suha bala
Manusmṛti 2.121: “Abhivādana.śīlasya nityaṃ vṛddha.upasevinaḥ catvāri tasya vardhante āyur dharmo yaśo balam.
“Greater in battle than the man who would conquer a thousand-thousand men, is he who would conquer just one—himself.”

sphairos
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Re: Dhammapada an EBT?

Post by sphairos » Sat Nov 03, 2018 5:24 pm

However, as I mentioned here, having the stanza or the Dhamma/meaning of it somewhere else in the first four nikāyas would actually prove legitimacy.
Well, this is obviously a hugely problematic judgement.

Because,
1) Many materials in other collections are older and more "authoritative" , than the four nikAyas . Sutta-nipAta, Thera/TherI-gAthAs, MahAvagga of the Vinaya, certain Abhidhamma materials etc. It is a bogus criterion -- measuring "legitimacy" (whatever it may mean) with an arbitrarily chosen set of texts.
2) In order to show, that something contradicts something in a theoretical system of thought, you must clearly lay out the norm, the reference point, something that is being contradicted. It is quite a feat when one is dealing with the Early Buddhist system of thought.

You came forth with a bold statement, that "Some Dhammapada stanzas are taken from Hindu texts such as Mahābhārata and Manusmṛti. I said taken from because they contradict with some suttas in four basic Nikayas", in the thread concerned with authenticity of the Dhammapada.

So far, you failed to show a single instance in support of that wild claim. The works you referred to , having messed up the names of scholars and the titles of their publications, that is, the Bollee's and Rau's , do not support your claims by any means. What you are referring to as supporting your statements is just wild speculations about how phrases from a Majjhima sutta supposedly "contradict" ancient poetical stanzas of the Dhammapada. That simply can not be demonstrated. At least, not in such superfluous fashion. And the list of hypothetical borrowings from Hindu texts is bogus. I checked the first instance in it, and it has nothing to do with the Dhammapada's text.

There has never been shown any temporal precedence of any Hindu text, except, probably, for the Rigveda, over Early Buddhist texts. There are many reasons to believe that it was the Buddhist texts from which the Hindu and other texts used to quote.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Dhammapada an EBT?

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Nov 04, 2018 2:21 am

The parallels are all very loose IMO, but are parallels nonetheless.

Which ones are substantially "contradictory"?

Udānavarga: (3.) Sukhakāmāni bhūtāni yodaṇḍena vihiṃsati131
Attano sukhamesāno pecca so na labhate sukhaṃ.
(4.) Sukhakāmāni bhūtāni yodaṇḍena na hiṃsati132
Attano sukhamesāno pecca so labhate sukhaṃ.
Hitopadeśa. 1. 2: Prāṇā yathātmano'bhīṣṭā bhūtānāmpi te tathā
Ātmaupamyena bhūteṣū dayāṃ kurvanti sādhava: .
Mahābhārata. 13. 5565: Ahiṃsakāni bhūtāni daṇḍena vinihanti ya:
Ātmana: sukhamicchan sa pretya naiva sukhī bhavet.
Manusmṛti. 5. 45: Yo'hiṃsakāni bhūtāni hinastyātmasukhecchayā
Sa jīvaṃśva mṛtaścaiva na kvacit sukhamedhate.

(parallels from Dhammapada Daṇaḍavaggo Sambahulakumārakavatthu (Dhp 129-145), Theravāda Udāna Daṇḍasutta (Ud 2.3), secular/non-religious Hitopadeśa, Sarvastivāda Udānavarga, Mahābhārata & Manusmṛtimānavadharmaśāstra (all 6 sources & above example found at page 56 here)
.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः

WorldTraveller
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Re: Dhammapada an EBT?

Post by WorldTraveller » Sun Nov 04, 2018 3:05 pm

sphairos wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 5:24 pm
The works you referred to , having messed up the names of scholars and the titles of their publications, that is, the Bollee's and Rau's , do not support your claims by any means.
Introduction of the Anandajoti Bhikkhu’s “A Comparative Edition of the Dhammapada” mentions the names of scholars and the titles of their publications in the same way. If they are messed up, can you give the correct ones as I'm interested in finding those publications. Thanks.
Moreover, there are parallels in the Jaina and Brahmanical traditions. Jaina Parallels have been enumerated by W.B. Bollée, in his Reverse Index of the Dhammapada, Suttanipāta, Thera- and Therīgāthā Pādas with Parallels from the Āyāraṅga, Sūyagaḍa, Uttarajjhāyā, Dasaveyāliya and Isibhāsiyāiṁ (Reinbek, 1983).
The Brahmanical parallels have been collected by W. Rau in his essay: "Bermerkungen und nicht-buddhistische Sanskrit-Parallelen zum Pāli-Dhammapada", which was published in Jñānamuktāvalī. Commemoration Volume in Honour of Johannes Nobel... edited by Claus Vogel (New Delhi, 1959).
“Do not go by oral tradition, by lineage of teaching, by hearsay, by a canonical tradition, by logical reasoning, by inferential reasoning, by reasoned cogitation, by the acceptance of a view after pondering it, by the seeming competence of a speaker, or because you think: ‘The ascetic is our guru.’”
- Kālāma-sutta

WorldTraveller
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Re: Dhammapada an EBT?

Post by WorldTraveller » Sun Nov 04, 2018 3:26 pm

sphairos wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 5:24 pm
1) Many materials in other collections are older and more "authoritative" , than the four nikAyas . Sutta-nipAta, Thera/TherI-gAthAs, MahAvagga of the Vinaya, certain Abhidhamma materials etc. It is a bogus criterion -- measuring "legitimacy" (whatever it may mean) with an arbitrarily chosen set of texts.
Chronology of the Pali Canon by Bimala Churn Law makes your claim a bogus too. More on chronology.
sphairos wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 5:24 pm
So far, you failed to show a single instance in support of that wild claim. The works you referred to , having messed up the names of scholars and the titles of their publications, that is, the Bollee's and Rau's , do not support your claims by any means. What you are referring to as supporting your statements is just wild speculations about how phrases from a Majjhima sutta supposedly "contradict" ancient poetical stanzas of the Dhammapada. That simply can not be demonstrated.
Dhammapada 109 speaks of long life, beauty, happiness, and strength as outcomes of performing service and paying respect to elders/superiors.
According to MN 135, refraining from the destruction of life will result long life. And, refraining from anger will result beauty. The strength can be taken as an attribute of being healthy which is a result of being refrain from harming beings. The happiness is an universal outcome due to one or many wholesome results.

The service and respect may have become wanting at a later time in India as they were able to take two separate places in the above mentioned list of 10 meritorious actions. According to MN 135, performing service and paying respect might lead to a noble birth.

Based on this post.
“Do not go by oral tradition, by lineage of teaching, by hearsay, by a canonical tradition, by logical reasoning, by inferential reasoning, by reasoned cogitation, by the acceptance of a view after pondering it, by the seeming competence of a speaker, or because you think: ‘The ascetic is our guru.’”
- Kālāma-sutta

sphairos
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Re: Dhammapada an EBT?

Post by sphairos » Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:42 am

Hello , Worldtraveller.

I am of the impression that you didn't quite read my postings.
Introduction of the Anandajoti Bhikkhu’s “A Comparative Edition of the Dhammapada” mentions the names of scholars and the titles of their publications in the same way. If they are messed up, can you give the correct ones as I'm interested in finding those publications. Thanks.
Here, the first line:

viewtopic.php?p=491321#p491321

If you expect to find a rich list of parallels to every line of the Dhammapada in those works, I have bad news for you. Check the third line of my posting.
Chronology of the Pali Canon by Bimala Churn Law makes your claim a bogus too. More on chronology.
Again, bad news for you.
In sum, although we cannot date the texts translated in this volume
with any final certainty, we can say that they are likely to date in something
close to their present form to the third or second century bce.
We cannot claim that the Pali version of the suttas translated here
represent the oldest version or are closer than other surviving versions
to some ideal original. Yet this is equally true of these other surviving
versions. Certainly there have been some attempts to compare versions
and date them relatively, and also attempts to distinguish earlier from
later strata within the collections of Pali suttas themselves, yet the
exercise is fraught with uncertainties, and the results of such attempts
have proved inconclusive and not been universally accepted by
scholars.26
26 As an example of a sustained attempt to distinguish between early and late in the Pali
Nikāyas, see G. C. Pande, Studies in the Origins of Buddhism, 2nd edn. (Delhi, 1974).

Rupert Gethin. Sayings of the Buddha. 2008. p. XXV
As for the date of, say, the Sutta-nipAta, I may quote the newest work (2017) on it by ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi :
The most thorough attempt at such a reconstruction was made by N.A. Jayawickrama in his "Critical Analysis of the Sutta-nipAta"... Jayawicrama ascribes the composition of the bulk of the poems roughly to the period 400-300 B. C. E.

The SuttanipAta. 2017. pp. 31-32 (transl. ven Bhikkhu Bodhi)
This
Dhammapada 109 speaks of long life, beauty, happiness, and strength as outcomes of performing service and paying respect to elders/superiors.
According to MN 135, refraining from the destruction of life will result long life. And, refraining from anger will result beauty. The strength can be taken as an attribute of being healthy which is a result of being refrain from harming beings. The happiness is an universal outcome due to one or many wholesome results.

The service and respect may have become wanting at a later time in India as they were able to take two separate places in the above mentioned list of 10 meritorious actions. According to MN 135, performing service and paying respect might lead to a noble birth.

Based on this post.
is pure nonsense. Exactly what I'm talking about here:

viewtopic.php?p=491338#p491338
2) In order to show, that something contradicts something in a theoretical system of thought, you must clearly lay out the norm, the reference point, something that is being contradicted. It is quite a feat when one is dealing with the Early Buddhist system of thought.
...
What you are referring to as supporting your statements is just wild speculations about how phrases from a Majjhima sutta supposedly "contradict" ancient poetical stanzas of the Dhammapada. That simply can not be demonstrated. At least, not in such superfluous fashion.
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WorldTraveller
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Re: Dhammapada an EBT?

Post by WorldTraveller » Sun Nov 11, 2018 10:10 am

Hello, sphairos.
sphairos wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:42 am
If you expect to find a rich list of parallels to every line of the Dhammapada in those works, I have bad news for you.
Well, I have bad news for you too. It’s your own vipallāsa to say that I expect to find a rich list of parallels to every line of the Dhammapada in those works.
sphairos wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:42 am
Jayawicrama ascribes the composition of the bulk of the poems roughly to the period 400-300 B. C. E.
Is it your turn to mess up the names of scholars now?
sphairos wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:42 am
As for the date of, say, the Sutta-nipAta, I may quote the newest work (2017) on it by ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi :
The most thorough attempt at such a reconstruction was made by N.A. Jayawickrama in his "Critical Analysis of the Sutta-nipAta"... Jayawicrama ascribes the composition of the bulk of the poems roughly to the period 400-300 B. C. E.

The SuttanipAta. 2017. pp. 31-32 (transl. ven Bhikkhu Bodhi)
Again, bad news for you. You quoted a reference from VBB's 2017 work as for the lateness of the date, but the Jayawickrama's work dated as 1947.
And, VBB says this too.
...but Norman brought to the task his consummate knowledge of Middle Indo-Aryan languages. Jayawickrama, in contrast, leans heavily on the commentary and thus follows more closely traditional Theravādin exegesis.

In my translation I have tried to steer a middle course between the two.
sphairos wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:42 am
pure nonsense. Exactly what I'm talking about here:
Likewise.
“Do not go by oral tradition, by lineage of teaching, by hearsay, by a canonical tradition, by logical reasoning, by inferential reasoning, by reasoned cogitation, by the acceptance of a view after pondering it, by the seeming competence of a speaker, or because you think: ‘The ascetic is our guru.’”
- Kālāma-sutta

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StormBorn
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Re: Dhammapada an EBT?

Post by StormBorn » Sun Nov 11, 2018 2:12 pm

Manopubbangama wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 10:00 pm
Kindly let me know the criterion upon which you deduced your opinion. Thanks
If you can find, A Textual and Historical Analysis of Khuddaka Nikāya by Prof. Oliver Abeynayake is a very detailed work on the whole KN including the Dhammapada. It's not available online in a digital format.
Dhp 28 - Yogabhāṣya 1 40
...
...
Dhp 287 - Mahābhārata 12. 175
I was told that these were originally mentioned in the footnotes of the Buddha Jayanti Tipitaka (BJT) series Sinhala Dhammapada. That's for SarathW :smile:

Also, see the parallel passages from the Sanskrit texts (Maitreya, Bṛhadāranyaka, Mahāvastu, Divyāvadāna, Uttaradyāyana, Mahābhārata, Manusmṛti, and Jātakamālā) at the footnotes of each page of the PTS Dhammapada collected by Rhys Davids.
“Greater in battle than the man who would conquer a thousand-thousand men, is he who would conquer just one—himself.”

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