Dhammapada an EBT?

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
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Manopubbangama
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Dhammapada an EBT?

Post by Manopubbangama » Sat Oct 27, 2018 10:00 pm

Kindly let me know the criterion upon which you deduced your opinion. Thanks
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DooDoot
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Re: Dhammapada an EBT?

Post by DooDoot » Sun Oct 28, 2018 3:59 am

I at least think the Dhammapada is "heartwood". It is a very serious book; obviously compiled for serious practitioners. However, it seems unlikely spoken by the Buddha in its current form but seems to be a collection and tapestry of what seem to be old & new phrases. Just quickly browsing chapters 1 and 2, some of the key phrases appear not found elsewhere in the Nikayas (but other phrases are). This said, I find the Dhammapada very pure & authentic.

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Pseudobabble
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Re: Dhammapada an EBT?

Post by Pseudobabble » Sun Oct 28, 2018 7:52 am

Manopubbangama wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 10:00 pm
Kindly let me know the criterion upon which you deduced your opinion. Thanks
Is the subtext that only EBT is valid?
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

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Manopubbangama
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Re: Dhammapada an EBT?

Post by Manopubbangama » Sun Oct 28, 2018 7:56 am

Pseudobabble wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 7:52 am
Manopubbangama wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 10:00 pm
Kindly let me know the criterion upon which you deduced your opinion. Thanks
Is the subtext that only EBT is valid?
No. :anjali:
Sabbe Sankhara Anicca - Sabbe Sankhara Dukkha - Sabbe Dhamma Anatta

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salayatananirodha
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Re: Dhammapada an EBT?

Post by salayatananirodha » Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:36 am

16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


links:
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
http://thaiforestwisdom.org/canonical-texts/
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html

sphairos
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Re: Dhammapada an EBT?

Post by sphairos » Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:44 pm

There is a monograph by John Brough, called "The Gandhari Dharmapada". It clearly shows, that the text was fundamental for the Early Buddhist tradition.
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Re: Dhammapada an EBT?

Post by thomaslaw » Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:43 am

sphairos wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:44 pm
There is a monograph by John Brough, called "The Gandhari Dharmapada". It clearly shows, that the text was fundamental for the Early Buddhist tradition.
Acceding to Yin Shun, the text was not fundamental for early Buddhist tradition. It is not part of the four basic Agamas/Nikayas.

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StormBorn
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Re: Dhammapada an EBT?

Post by StormBorn » Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:15 am

thomaslaw wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:43 am
sphairos wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:44 pm
There is a monograph by John Brough, called "The Gandhari Dharmapada". It clearly shows, that the text was fundamental for the Early Buddhist tradition.
Acceding to Yin Shun, the text was not fundamental for early Buddhist tradition. It is not part of the four basic Agamas/Nikayas.
Some Dhammapada stanzas are taken from Hindu texts such as Mahābhārata and Manusmṛti. I said taken from because they contradict with some suttas in four basic Nikayas.
“Greater in battle than the man who would conquer a thousand-thousand men, is he who would conquer just one—himself.”

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Manopubbangama
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Re: Dhammapada an EBT?

Post by Manopubbangama » Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:21 am

StormBorn wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:15 am
thomaslaw wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:43 am
sphairos wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:44 pm
There is a monograph by John Brough, called "The Gandhari Dharmapada". It clearly shows, that the text was fundamental for the Early Buddhist tradition.
Acceding to Yin Shun, the text was not fundamental for early Buddhist tradition. It is not part of the four basic Agamas/Nikayas.
Some Dhammapada stanzas are taken from Hindu texts such as Mahābhārata and Manusmṛti. I said taken from because they contradict with some suttas in four basic Nikayas.
Can you source this claim to the corresponding stanza from each side of the text?

Can you establish linguistic precedence in the Hindu texts?

It was my assumption that the Dhammapada preceded the Mahābhārata and Manusmṛti by hundreds of years?
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DooDoot
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Re: Dhammapada an EBT?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:45 am

StormBorn wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:15 am
Some Dhammapada stanzas are taken from Hindu texts such as Mahābhārata and Manusmṛti.
Which stanzas? Which Hindu texts? Evidence thanks . :popcorn:

sphairos
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Re: Dhammapada an EBT?

Post by sphairos » Fri Nov 02, 2018 6:44 pm

What the Brough's monograph has shown, actually, is that there existed a very early written tradition of the Dharmapada, the tradition dating back to 2-3 centuries BC... So the text is likely one of the first written Buddhist text in history, that was likely commited to writing just 100 years after the Buddha, if we assume "a late chronology" of the Buddha, suggested by recent scholarship.
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StormBorn
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Re: Dhammapada an EBT?

Post by StormBorn » Sat Nov 03, 2018 12:52 am

Manopubbangama wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:21 am
Can you source this claim to the corresponding stanza from each side of the text?
Can you establish linguistic precedence in the Hindu texts?
It was my assumption that the Dhammapada preceded the Mahābhārata and Manusmṛti by hundreds of years?
DooDoot wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:45 am
Which stanzas? Which Hindu texts? Evidence thanks . :popcorn:
If you can find, Reserse Index of the Dhammapada, Suttanipata, Thera-and Therigatha Padas by Williem B. Bollee and Bermerkungen und nicht-buddhistische Sanskrit-Parallelen zum Pāli-Dhamma­pada by Wilhelm Rau are good sources in this regard.

Also, this post has some interesting detail about the Dhp 109.
“Greater in battle than the man who would conquer a thousand-thousand men, is he who would conquer just one—himself.”

sphairos
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Re: Dhammapada an EBT?

Post by sphairos » Sat Nov 03, 2018 12:21 pm

StormBorn wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 12:52 am
Manopubbangama wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:21 am
Can you source this claim to the corresponding stanza from each side of the text?
Can you establish linguistic precedence in the Hindu texts?
It was my assumption that the Dhammapada preceded the Mahābhārata and Manusmṛti by hundreds of years?
DooDoot wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:45 am
Which stanzas? Which Hindu texts? Evidence thanks . :popcorn:
If you can find, Reserse Index of the Dhammapada, Suttanipata, Thera-and Therigatha Padas by Williem B. Bollee and Bermerkungen und nicht-buddhistische Sanskrit-Parallelen zum Pāli-Dhamma­pada by Wilhelm Rau are good sources in this regard.

Also, this post has some interesting detail about the Dhp 109.
"Reverse", "Willem", "Bollée", "Bemerkungen".

These old works are very well known to the scholarship.

By far the biggest find of Bollée is a single instance where 4 lines in the ATThaka-vagga of the Sutta-nipata are similar to 4 lines of the Sūyagaḍa. That's it. There is occasionally a word or a couple of words that are similar to the Dhammapada's ones. It's just because they are collocations, common stock expressions in Indian languages.

Now, what do those very rare parallels and vague similarities actually show?

That phraseology of some Ancient Jaina and Hindu poetry occasionally bears some similarity to the Buddhist one ? But did the former influence the latter, or it was it the other way round? You have no answer.

In the meantime, it's a well-attested feature of all classical literatures of the world : borrowing, adoption and refurbishment of verses, narratives, ideas. The Bible presents literally as its own ancient Sumerian and Babylonian texts and myths. The description and types of divination in the DIgha-nikAya are taken from Assyrian-Babylonian texts. It is just nothing more than a feature of the classical literature and its methods of composition.
Last edited by sphairos on Sat Nov 03, 2018 2:03 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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DooDoot
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Re: Dhammapada an EBT?

Post by DooDoot » Sat Nov 03, 2018 12:28 pm

StormBorn wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 12:52 am
If you can find, Reserse Index of the Dhammapada, Suttanipata, Thera-and Therigatha Padas by Williem B. Bollee and Bermerkungen und nicht-buddhistische Sanskrit-Parallelen zum Pāli-Dhamma­pada by Wilhelm Rau are good sources in this regard.
Thanks. I am generally a big fan of your posts here :heart: but I think it would be courteous if you posted some relevant quotes. This is a discussion forum (rather than a university for hours of study). :thanks: Bed time here. :hello: :zzz: :meditate:

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StormBorn
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Re: Dhammapada an EBT?

Post by StormBorn » Sat Nov 03, 2018 2:11 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 12:28 pm
Thanks. I am generally a big fan of your posts here :heart:
:heart:
DooDoot wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 12:28 pm
but I think it would be courteous if you posted some relevant quotes.
Yes, I know, but the venerable who provided me the below list has some serious issues to dealt with rather than making a final work of his parallel list. He said there are some others that not included in the below list (just here and there in his notes) :smile:

All the credit to him for giving this at least (he said reference numbers not yet thoroughly verified):
Dhp 28 - Yogabhāṣya 1 40
Dhp 47 - Śhāntiparva. 9939. Mahābhārata
Dhp 48 - Śhāntiparva. 6540. Mahābhārata
Dhp 106 - Manusmṛti 5. 53
Dhp 109 - Manusmṛti 2. 121
Dhp 127 - Garudapurāṇa Adyāṣa 113‒20
Dhp 129 - Hitopadeśa 1. 2
Dhp 131 - Mahābhārata 13. 5565 & Manusmṛti 5. 45
Dhp 150 - Manusmṛti 6. 77
Dhp 161 - Garuda Purāna 119 Adyāya 19
Dhp 200 - Mahābhārata 12. 9917
Dhp 223 - Mahābhārata
Dhp 260 - Manusmṛti 2. 158
Dhp 287 - Mahābhārata 12. 175
“Greater in battle than the man who would conquer a thousand-thousand men, is he who would conquer just one—himself.”

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