Is SN 36.6 really about two "feelings"??

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
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DooDoot
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Is SN 36.6 really about two "feelings"??

Post by DooDoot » Sun Oct 14, 2018 12:13 pm

Dear forum

SN 36.6 is a popular sutta and it does say there two two feelings. But are there really two feelings? It says:
When an uneducated ordinary person experiences painful physical feelings they sorrow and pine and lament, beating their breast and falling into confusion.

assutavā, bhikkhave, puthujjano dukkhāya vedanāya phuṭṭho samāno socati kilamati paridevati urattāḷiṃ kandati sammohaṃ āpajjati.

They experience two feelings:

So dve vedanā vedayati—

physical and mental.

kāyikañca, cetasikañca.

https://suttacentral.net/sn36.6/en/sujato
Is "sorrow and pine and lament, beating their breast and falling into confusion" really a "feeling"? Or is it a sankhara (pananca)? :shrug:

For example, Dependent Origination has sorrow, lamentation, etc, at the very end of the 12 conditions rather than at the 7th condition of "feeling", as follows:
And what is dependent co-arising? From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging. From clinging as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Please discuss. :smile:

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Zom
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Re: Is SN 36.6 really about two "feelings"??

Post by Zom » Sun Oct 14, 2018 3:07 pm

Yes, vedana is twofold: mental and bodily.

As for paticcasamuppada - yes, feelings are there in several links.

paul
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Re: Is SN 36.6 really about two "feelings"??

Post by paul » Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:56 pm

"When an untaught worldling is touched by a painful (bodily) feeling, he worries and grieves, he laments, beats his breast, weeps and is distraught. He thus experiences two kinds of feelings, a bodily and a mental feeling. It is as if a man were pierced by a dart and, following the first piercing, he is hit by a second dart.”—-SN 36.6

This illustrates why the order of the foundations of mindfulness and the five groups of existence is body, feelings, mind. Feelings are a transition between body and mind. It also illustrates why the body is an essential focus of contemplation.

"In whomever mindfulness immersed in the body is not developed, not pursued, Mara gains entry, Mara gains a foothold."---MN 119

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