What is the difference between "themeless" vs "emptiness" liberation?

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
auto
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Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: What is the difference between "themeless" vs "emptiness" liberation?

Post by auto » Mon Oct 08, 2018 11:41 am

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"Monks, these are the four developments of concentration. Which four?

There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now.
There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision.
There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness.
There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents.
https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn ... .than.html
The eye of discernment

"Friend, what can be known with the purified intellect-consciousness divorced from the five [sense] faculties?"

"Friend, with the purified intellect-consciousness divorced from the five faculties the dimension of the infinitude of space can be known [as] 'infinite space.' The dimension of the infinitude of consciousness can be known [as] 'infinite consciousness.' The dimension of nothingness can be known [as] 'There is nothing.'
"With what does one know a quality that can be known?"
"One knows a quality that can be known with the eye of discernment."

"And what is the purpose of discernment?"
"The purpose of discernment is direct knowledge, its purpose is full comprehension, its purpose is abandoning."
..notice the abandonment and endowed, it refers imo going from gross to subtle and that is beyond attainment of knowledge and vision, so its 3rd development of concentration, of getting into 1st jhana(also i think it is namarupa and attainment of streamentry)
"Five factors are abandoned in the first jhana, and with five is it endowed. There is the case where, in a monk who has attained the first jhana, sensual desire is abandoned, ill will is abandoned, sloth & torpor is abandoned, restlessness & anxiety is abandoned, uncertainty is abandoned. And there occur directed thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, & singleness of mind. It's in this way that five factors are abandoned in the first jhana, and with five it is endowed."
..
"Friend, how many conditions are there for the attainment of the neither-pleasant-nor-painful awareness-release?"

"Friend, there are four conditions for the attainment of the neither-pleasant-nor-painful awareness-release. There is the case where a monk, with the abandoning of pleasure & stress — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain. These are the four conditions for the attainment of the neither-pleasant-nor-painful awareness-release.
i think awareness release is one of the thing what happen when attaining arupa jhanas.

techgindia
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Re: What is the difference between "themeless" vs "emptiness" liberation?

Post by techgindia » Fri Oct 26, 2018 5:41 am

Emptiness as a meditative dwelling. Essentially, it boils down to the ability to center the mind in a particular mode of perception, to maintain it there, and then to notice the absence and presence of disturbance within that mode. The process starts with perceptions of one’s external surroundings—village, wilderness, the earth property—and then moves internally to the four formless states, the “themeless concentration of awareness,” and finally to release from all effluents.









techgindia

paul
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Re: What is the difference between "themeless" vs "emptiness" liberation?

Post by paul » Fri Oct 26, 2018 7:03 am

techgindia wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 5:41 am
the ability to center the mind in a particular mode of perception, to maintain it there, and then to notice the absence and presence of disturbance within that mode. The process starts with perceptions of one’s external surroundings—village, wilderness, the earth property—and then moves internally to the four formless states, the “themeless concentration of awareness,” and finally to release from all effluents.
Reference: MN 121
1) The first subject of meditation is ‘wilderness’, perception of village does not constitute a subject. 2) The perception of, and following the dimension of ‘space’ include the external. In fact seen as a whole, the sutta is an exercise in progressively expanding space. It also develops knowledge of impermanence, which negates the idea that the sutta is primarily about samatha:
"He discerns that 'This themeless concentration of awareness is fabricated & mentally fashioned.' And he discerns that 'Whatever is fabricated & mentally fashioned is inconstant & subject to cessation."

auto
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Re: What is the difference between "themeless" vs "emptiness" liberation?

Post by auto » Fri Oct 26, 2018 2:41 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 6:36 am
Dear DW forum

MN 43 says:
And what is the heart’s release through emptiness? It’s when a mendicant has gone to a wilderness, or to the root of a tree, or to an empty hut, and reflects like this: ‘This is empty of a self or what belongs to a self.’ This is called the heart’s release through emptiness.

And what is the signless (themeless) heart’s release? It’s when a mendicant, not focusing on any signs, enters and remains in the signless immersion of the heart. This is called the signless heart’s release.

Greed, hate and delusion are makers of limits. A mendicant who has ended the defilements has given these up, cut them off at the root, made them like a palm stump, and exterminated them, so they are unable to arise in the future.... That unshakable heart’s release is empty of greed, hate, and delusion. Greed, hate, and delusion are makers of signs. A mendicant who has ended the defilements has given these up, cut them off at the root, made them like a palm stump, and exterminated them, so they are unable to arise in the future. The unshakable heart’s release is said to be the best kind of signless heart’s release. That unshakable heart’s release is empty of greed, hate, and delusion. This is the way in which they mean the same thing, and differ only in the phrasing.”

https://suttacentral.net/mn43/en/sujato
How exactly are the themeless/signless liberation and emptiness liberation different? How are they the same?

Thank you :smile:
in the way where they are same there isn't 'heart's release through emptiness' mentioned.
“The limitless heart’s release, and the heart’s release through nothingness, and the heart’s release through emptiness, and the signless heart’s release: do these things differ in both meaning and phrasing? Or do they mean the same thing, and differ only in the phrasing?”
but
And what’s the way in which they mean the same thing, and differ only in the phrasing?
in the explanation there is only 3 and emptiness is missing
Greed, hate, and delusion are makers of limits. A mendicant who has ended the defilements has given these up, cut them off at the root, made them like a palm stump, and obliterated them, so they are unable to arise in the future. The unshakable heart’s release is said to be the best kind of limitless heart’s release. That unshakable heart’s release is empty of greed, hate, and delusion.

Greed is something, hate is something, and delusion is something. A mendicant who has ended the defilements has given these up, cut them off at the root, made them like a palm stump, and obliterated them, so they are unable to arise in the future. The unshakable heart’s release is said to be the best kind of heart’s release through nothingness. That unshakable heart’s release is empty of greed, hate, and delusion.

Greed, hate, and delusion are makers of signs. A mendicant who has ended the defilements has given these up, cut them off at the root, made them like a palm stump, and obliterated them, so they are unable to arise in the future. The unshakable heart’s release is said to be the best kind of signless heart’s release. That unshakable heart’s release is empty of greed, hate, and delusion. This is the way in which they mean the same thing, and differ only in the phrasing.”

auto
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Re: What is the difference between "themeless" vs "emptiness" liberation?

Post by auto » Fri Oct 26, 2018 3:01 pm

https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/MN/MN106.html
“Being sustained, Ānanda, he is sustained by the supreme sustenance; for this—the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception—is the supreme sustenance. There is (however) the case where a monk, having practiced in this way—‘It should not be, it should not occur to me; it will not be, it will not occur to me. What is, what has come to be, that I abandon’—obtains equanimity. He does not relish that equanimity, does not welcome it, does not remain fastened to it. As does not relish that equanimity, does not welcome it, does not remain fastened to it, his consciousness is not dependent on it, is not sustained by it [does not cling to it]. Without clinging/sustenance, Ānanda, a monk is totally unbound.”
“It’s amazing, lord. It’s astounding. For truly, the Blessed One has declared to us the way to cross over the flood by going from one support to the next. But what is the noble liberation?”

“There is the case, Ānanda, where a disciple of the noble ones considers this: ‘Sensuality here & now; sensuality in lives to come; sensual perceptions here & now; sensual perceptions in lives to come; forms here & now; forms in lives to come; form-perceptions here & now; form-perceptions in lives to come; perceptions of the imperturbable; perceptions of the dimension of nothingness; perceptions of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception: That is an identity, to the extent that there is an identity. This is deathless: the liberation of the mind through lack of clinging/sustenance.’
Could deathless be emptiness? it would make sense then why emptiness isn't included to the way which they mean same thing.

at dimension of neither perception nor non...: that is an identity.., hmm interesting.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"Now, when the monk is percipient of himself here,
then from there to there, step by step, he touches the peak of perception. As he remains at the peak of perception, the thought occurs to him, 'Thinking is bad for me. Not thinking is better for me. If I were to think and will, this perception of mine would cease, and a grosser perception would appear. What if I were neither to think nor to will?' [3] So he neither thinks nor wills, and as he is neither thinking nor willing, that perception ceases [4] and another, grosser perception does not appear. He touches cessation. This, Potthapada, is how there is the alert [5] step-by step attainment of the ultimate cessation of perception.
at 8 jhana monk is percipient of himself.

https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/MN/MN106.html
“Now, Ānanda, I have taught the practice conducive to the imperturbable. I have taught the practice conducive to the dimension of nothingness. I have taught the practice conducive to the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. I have taught the way to cross over the flood by going from one support to the next, the noble liberation. Whatever a teacher should do—seeking the welfare of his disciples, out of sympathy for them—that have I done for you. Over there are the roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings.

Practice jhāna, Ānanda. Don’t be heedless. Don’t later fall into remorse. That is our message to you all.”
our message?

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