What is the difference between "themeless" vs "emptiness" liberation?

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
auto
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Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: What is the difference between "themeless" vs "emptiness" liberation?

Post by auto » Mon Oct 08, 2018 11:41 am

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"Monks, these are the four developments of concentration. Which four?

There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now.
There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision.
There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness.
There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents.
https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn ... .than.html
The eye of discernment

"Friend, what can be known with the purified intellect-consciousness divorced from the five [sense] faculties?"

"Friend, with the purified intellect-consciousness divorced from the five faculties the dimension of the infinitude of space can be known [as] 'infinite space.' The dimension of the infinitude of consciousness can be known [as] 'infinite consciousness.' The dimension of nothingness can be known [as] 'There is nothing.'
"With what does one know a quality that can be known?"
"One knows a quality that can be known with the eye of discernment."

"And what is the purpose of discernment?"
"The purpose of discernment is direct knowledge, its purpose is full comprehension, its purpose is abandoning."
..notice the abandonment and endowed, it refers imo going from gross to subtle and that is beyond attainment of knowledge and vision, so its 3rd development of concentration, of getting into 1st jhana(also i think it is namarupa and attainment of streamentry)
"Five factors are abandoned in the first jhana, and with five is it endowed. There is the case where, in a monk who has attained the first jhana, sensual desire is abandoned, ill will is abandoned, sloth & torpor is abandoned, restlessness & anxiety is abandoned, uncertainty is abandoned. And there occur directed thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, & singleness of mind. It's in this way that five factors are abandoned in the first jhana, and with five it is endowed."
..
"Friend, how many conditions are there for the attainment of the neither-pleasant-nor-painful awareness-release?"

"Friend, there are four conditions for the attainment of the neither-pleasant-nor-painful awareness-release. There is the case where a monk, with the abandoning of pleasure & stress — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain. These are the four conditions for the attainment of the neither-pleasant-nor-painful awareness-release.
i think awareness release is one of the thing what happen when attaining arupa jhanas.

techgindia
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Re: What is the difference between "themeless" vs "emptiness" liberation?

Post by techgindia » Fri Oct 26, 2018 5:41 am

Emptiness as a meditative dwelling. Essentially, it boils down to the ability to center the mind in a particular mode of perception, to maintain it there, and then to notice the absence and presence of disturbance within that mode. The process starts with perceptions of one’s external surroundings—village, wilderness, the earth property—and then moves internally to the four formless states, the “themeless concentration of awareness,” and finally to release from all effluents.









techgindia

paul
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Re: What is the difference between "themeless" vs "emptiness" liberation?

Post by paul » Fri Oct 26, 2018 7:03 am

techgindia wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 5:41 am
the ability to center the mind in a particular mode of perception, to maintain it there, and then to notice the absence and presence of disturbance within that mode. The process starts with perceptions of one’s external surroundings—village, wilderness, the earth property—and then moves internally to the four formless states, the “themeless concentration of awareness,” and finally to release from all effluents.
Reference: MN 121
1) The first subject of meditation is ‘wilderness’, perception of village does not constitute a subject. 2) The perception of, and following the dimension of ‘space’ include the external. In fact seen as a whole, the sutta is an exercise in progressively expanding space. It also develops knowledge of impermanence, which negates the idea that the sutta is primarily about samatha:
"He discerns that 'This themeless concentration of awareness is fabricated & mentally fashioned.' And he discerns that 'Whatever is fabricated & mentally fashioned is inconstant & subject to cessation."

auto
Posts: 507
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: What is the difference between "themeless" vs "emptiness" liberation?

Post by auto » Fri Oct 26, 2018 2:41 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 6:36 am
Dear DW forum

MN 43 says:
And what is the heart’s release through emptiness? It’s when a mendicant has gone to a wilderness, or to the root of a tree, or to an empty hut, and reflects like this: ‘This is empty of a self or what belongs to a self.’ This is called the heart’s release through emptiness.

And what is the signless (themeless) heart’s release? It’s when a mendicant, not focusing on any signs, enters and remains in the signless immersion of the heart. This is called the signless heart’s release.

Greed, hate and delusion are makers of limits. A mendicant who has ended the defilements has given these up, cut them off at the root, made them like a palm stump, and exterminated them, so they are unable to arise in the future.... That unshakable heart’s release is empty of greed, hate, and delusion. Greed, hate, and delusion are makers of signs. A mendicant who has ended the defilements has given these up, cut them off at the root, made them like a palm stump, and exterminated them, so they are unable to arise in the future. The unshakable heart’s release is said to be the best kind of signless heart’s release. That unshakable heart’s release is empty of greed, hate, and delusion. This is the way in which they mean the same thing, and differ only in the phrasing.”

https://suttacentral.net/mn43/en/sujato
How exactly are the themeless/signless liberation and emptiness liberation different? How are they the same?

Thank you :smile:
in the way where they are same there isn't 'heart's release through emptiness' mentioned.
“The limitless heart’s release, and the heart’s release through nothingness, and the heart’s release through emptiness, and the signless heart’s release: do these things differ in both meaning and phrasing? Or do they mean the same thing, and differ only in the phrasing?”
but
And what’s the way in which they mean the same thing, and differ only in the phrasing?
in the explanation there is only 3 and emptiness is missing
Greed, hate, and delusion are makers of limits. A mendicant who has ended the defilements has given these up, cut them off at the root, made them like a palm stump, and obliterated them, so they are unable to arise in the future. The unshakable heart’s release is said to be the best kind of limitless heart’s release. That unshakable heart’s release is empty of greed, hate, and delusion.

Greed is something, hate is something, and delusion is something. A mendicant who has ended the defilements has given these up, cut them off at the root, made them like a palm stump, and obliterated them, so they are unable to arise in the future. The unshakable heart’s release is said to be the best kind of heart’s release through nothingness. That unshakable heart’s release is empty of greed, hate, and delusion.

Greed, hate, and delusion are makers of signs. A mendicant who has ended the defilements has given these up, cut them off at the root, made them like a palm stump, and obliterated them, so they are unable to arise in the future. The unshakable heart’s release is said to be the best kind of signless heart’s release. That unshakable heart’s release is empty of greed, hate, and delusion. This is the way in which they mean the same thing, and differ only in the phrasing.”

auto
Posts: 507
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Re: What is the difference between "themeless" vs "emptiness" liberation?

Post by auto » Fri Oct 26, 2018 3:01 pm

https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/MN/MN106.html
“Being sustained, Ānanda, he is sustained by the supreme sustenance; for this—the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception—is the supreme sustenance. There is (however) the case where a monk, having practiced in this way—‘It should not be, it should not occur to me; it will not be, it will not occur to me. What is, what has come to be, that I abandon’—obtains equanimity. He does not relish that equanimity, does not welcome it, does not remain fastened to it. As does not relish that equanimity, does not welcome it, does not remain fastened to it, his consciousness is not dependent on it, is not sustained by it [does not cling to it]. Without clinging/sustenance, Ānanda, a monk is totally unbound.”
“It’s amazing, lord. It’s astounding. For truly, the Blessed One has declared to us the way to cross over the flood by going from one support to the next. But what is the noble liberation?”

“There is the case, Ānanda, where a disciple of the noble ones considers this: ‘Sensuality here & now; sensuality in lives to come; sensual perceptions here & now; sensual perceptions in lives to come; forms here & now; forms in lives to come; form-perceptions here & now; form-perceptions in lives to come; perceptions of the imperturbable; perceptions of the dimension of nothingness; perceptions of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception: That is an identity, to the extent that there is an identity. This is deathless: the liberation of the mind through lack of clinging/sustenance.’
Could deathless be emptiness? it would make sense then why emptiness isn't included to the way which they mean same thing.

at dimension of neither perception nor non...: that is an identity.., hmm interesting.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"Now, when the monk is percipient of himself here,
then from there to there, step by step, he touches the peak of perception. As he remains at the peak of perception, the thought occurs to him, 'Thinking is bad for me. Not thinking is better for me. If I were to think and will, this perception of mine would cease, and a grosser perception would appear. What if I were neither to think nor to will?' [3] So he neither thinks nor wills, and as he is neither thinking nor willing, that perception ceases [4] and another, grosser perception does not appear. He touches cessation. This, Potthapada, is how there is the alert [5] step-by step attainment of the ultimate cessation of perception.
at 8 jhana monk is percipient of himself.

https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/MN/MN106.html
“Now, Ānanda, I have taught the practice conducive to the imperturbable. I have taught the practice conducive to the dimension of nothingness. I have taught the practice conducive to the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. I have taught the way to cross over the flood by going from one support to the next, the noble liberation. Whatever a teacher should do—seeking the welfare of his disciples, out of sympathy for them—that have I done for you. Over there are the roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings.

Practice jhāna, Ānanda. Don’t be heedless. Don’t later fall into remorse. That is our message to you all.”
our message?

tinhtan
Posts: 26
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 1:32 pm

Re: What is the difference between "themeless" vs "emptiness" liberation?

Post by tinhtan » Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:27 am

Hi

When one observes the anicca characteristics of phenomena, suddenly realises Nibbana then it is said that he sees Nibbana through the signless door (animitta).

When one observes the dukkha characteristics of phenomena, suddenly realises Nibbana then it is said that he sees Nibbana through the desireless door (appanihita).

When one observes the anatta characteristics of phenomena, suddenly realises Nibbana then it is said that he sees Nibbana through the emptiness door (sunnata).

Have a nice day!

auto
Posts: 507
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: What is the difference between "themeless" vs "emptiness" liberation?

Post by auto » Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:27 am

tinhtan wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:27 am
Hi

When one observes the anicca characteristics of phenomena, suddenly realises Nibbana then it is said that he sees Nibbana through the signless door (animitta).

When one observes the dukkha characteristics of phenomena, suddenly realises Nibbana then it is said that he sees Nibbana through the desireless door (appanihita).

When one observes the anatta characteristics of phenomena, suddenly realises Nibbana then it is said that he sees Nibbana through the emptiness door (sunnata).

Have a nice day!
Nice

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"'All phenomena are rooted in desire.[1]
"'All phenomena come into play through attention.
"'All phenomena have contact as their origination.
"'All phenomena have feeling as their meeting place.
"'All phenomena have concentration as their presiding state.
"'All phenomena have mindfulness as their governing principle.
"'All phenomena have discernment as their surpassing state.
"'All phenomena have release as their heartwood.
"'All phenomena gain their footing in the deathless.
"'All phenomena have Unbinding as their final end.'
unbinding is sankhara? any ideas??

https://www.tipitaka.net/tipitaka/dhp/v ... ?verse=383

Dhammapada: Verses and Stories
Dhammapada Verse 383
Pasadabahulabrahmana Vatthu
Chinda sotam parakkamma
kame panuda brahmana
sankharanam khayam natva
akatannusi brahmana.

Verse 383: O Brahmana, cut off the stream of craving with diligence, and abandon sense desires. O Brahmana, perceiving the cessation of the conditioned, be an arahat who realizes Nibbana, the Unconditioned.
this site translates

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
383

Having striven, brahman,
cut the stream.
Expel sensual passions.
Knowing the ending of fabrications,
brahman,
you know the Unmade.
https://suttacentral.net/an10.58/pli/ms
chandamūlakā, āvuso, sabbe dhammā,
manasikārasambhavā sabbe dhammā,
phassasamudayā sabbe dhammā,
vedanāsamosaraṇā sabbe dhammā,
samādhippamukhā sabbe dhammā,
satādhipateyyā sabbe dhammā,
paññuttarā sabbe dhammā,
vimuttisārā sabbe dhammā,
amatogadhā sabbe dhammā,
nibbānapariyosānā sabbe dhammā’ti.

tinhtan
Posts: 26
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 1:32 pm

Re: What is the difference between "themeless" vs "emptiness" liberation?

Post by tinhtan » Thu Nov 22, 2018 9:08 am

auto wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:27 am
"'All phenomena are rooted in desire.[1]
"'All phenomena come into play through attention.
"'All phenomena have contact as their origination.
"'All phenomena have feeling as their meeting place.
"'All phenomena have concentration as their presiding state.
"'All phenomena have mindfulness as their governing principle.
"'All phenomena have discernment as their surpassing state.
"'All phenomena have release as their heartwood.
"'All phenomena gain their footing in the deathless.
"'All phenomena have Unbinding as their final end.'
unbinding is sankhara? any ideas??

https://suttacentral.net/an10.58/pli/ms
chandamūlakā, āvuso, sabbe dhammā,
manasikārasambhavā sabbe dhammā,
phassasamudayā sabbe dhammā,
vedanāsamosaraṇā sabbe dhammā,
samādhippamukhā sabbe dhammā,
satādhipateyyā sabbe dhammā,
paññuttarā sabbe dhammā,
vimuttisārā sabbe dhammā,
amatogadhā sabbe dhammā,
nibbānapariyosānā sabbe dhammā’ti.
Hi auto

unbinding is Nibbana as you can see in your pali quote.

sankhara concerns desire (chanda), attention (manasikara), contact (phassa), concentration (samadhi or ekaggata), mindfullness (sati), discernment (panna).

This show what one might practice till the final end Nibbana (Unbinding).

So all phenomena (or this 5 aggregates) are rooted in chanda and come into play through manasikara.
The worldly one will root in kama chanda (the 5 sensuality desire) and grasp these sensuality by ayoniso manasikara (inappropriate attention). So by phassa (contact) he will search the pleasure sensation (vedana) because of the 5 strings of sensuality.

Now if one would like to escape dukkha (suffering), he must have a desire to escape it (that is called dhamma chanda) and have an appropriate attention (yoniso manasikara) to the goals (release, unbinding).

So through contact+vedana , one need to be concentrated, mindfull of what happens to him. Then he will discern things as they are (they happens due to condition, suffering or not depends on greed or not, etc.... )

And by deepening the practice, the observation, panna will show the reality of life, and one will be liberated step by step.... Finally one attains the deathless and realises Unbinding.

Just my 2 cents ... :popcorn:
Have a nice day.

auto
Posts: 507
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: What is the difference between "themeless" vs "emptiness" liberation?

Post by auto » Thu Nov 22, 2018 3:44 pm

tinhtan wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 9:08 am
auto wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:27 am
"'All phenomena are rooted in desire.[1]
"'All phenomena come into play through attention.
"'All phenomena have contact as their origination.
"'All phenomena have feeling as their meeting place.
"'All phenomena have concentration as their presiding state.
"'All phenomena have mindfulness as their governing principle.
"'All phenomena have discernment as their surpassing state.
"'All phenomena have release as their heartwood.
"'All phenomena gain their footing in the deathless.
"'All phenomena have Unbinding as their final end.'
unbinding is sankhara? any ideas??

https://suttacentral.net/an10.58/pli/ms
chandamūlakā, āvuso, sabbe dhammā,
manasikārasambhavā sabbe dhammā,
phassasamudayā sabbe dhammā,
vedanāsamosaraṇā sabbe dhammā,
samādhippamukhā sabbe dhammā,
satādhipateyyā sabbe dhammā,
paññuttarā sabbe dhammā,
vimuttisārā sabbe dhammā,
amatogadhā sabbe dhammā,
nibbānapariyosānā sabbe dhammā’ti.
Hi auto

unbinding is Nibbana as you can see in your pali quote.

sankhara concerns desire (chanda), attention (manasikara), contact (phassa), concentration (samadhi or ekaggata), mindfullness (sati), discernment (panna).

This show what one might practice till the final end Nibbana (Unbinding).

So all phenomena (or this 5 aggregates) are rooted in chanda and come into play through manasikara.
The worldly one will root in kama chanda (the 5 sensuality desire) and grasp these sensuality by ayoniso manasikara (inappropriate attention). So by phassa (contact) he will search the pleasure sensation (vedana) because of the 5 strings of sensuality.

Now if one would like to escape dukkha (suffering), he must have a desire to escape it (that is called dhamma chanda) and have an appropriate attention (yoniso manasikara) to the goals (release, unbinding).

So through contact+vedana , one need to be concentrated, mindfull of what happens to him. Then he will discern things as they are (they happens due to condition, suffering or not depends on greed or not, etc.... )

And by deepening the practice, the observation, panna will show the reality of life, and one will be liberated step by step.... Finally one attains the deathless and realises Unbinding.

Just my 2 cents ... :popcorn:
Have a nice day.
Thanks for the input.

ordinary person perceives nibbana as nibbana. But conceives things about nibbana. Can read it in MN 1

https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/MN/MN1.html
The Blessed One said: "There is the case, monks, where an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person...
..He perceives Unbinding as Unbinding.[7] Perceiving Unbinding as Unbinding, he conceives things about Unbinding, he conceives things in Unbinding, he conceives things coming out of Unbinding, he conceives Unbinding as 'mine,' he delights in Unbinding. Why is that? Because he has not comprehended it, I tell you.
what do you think about those who practice modern step by step methods and as a result see nibbana, are they 1st path because of seeing nibbana?

tinhtan
Posts: 26
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 1:32 pm

Re: What is the difference between "themeless" vs "emptiness" liberation?

Post by tinhtan » Thu Nov 22, 2018 5:00 pm

auto wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 3:44 pm
ordinary person perceives nibbana as nibbana. But conceives things about nibbana. Can read it in MN 1

https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/MN/MN1.html
The Blessed One said: "There is the case, monks, where an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person...
..He perceives Unbinding as Unbinding.[7] Perceiving Unbinding as Unbinding, he conceives things about Unbinding, he conceives things in Unbinding, he conceives things coming out of Unbinding, he conceives Unbinding as 'mine,' he delights in Unbinding. Why is that? Because he has not comprehended it, I tell you.
what do you think about those who practice modern step by step methods and as a result see nibbana, are they 1st path because of seeing nibbana?
hum what do you mean "modern step by step methods" and "1st path" ? please enumerate.

But according to your quotes , if you replace "perceives" by "imagines" and "conceives" by "supposes or believes or guesses" , maybe the meaning is clear ?

auto
Posts: 507
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: What is the difference between "themeless" vs "emptiness" liberation?

Post by auto » Fri Nov 23, 2018 12:20 pm

tinhtan wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 5:00 pm
auto wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 3:44 pm
ordinary person perceives nibbana as nibbana. But conceives things about nibbana. Can read it in MN 1

https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/MN/MN1.html
The Blessed One said: "There is the case, monks, where an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person...
..He perceives Unbinding as Unbinding.[7] Perceiving Unbinding as Unbinding, he conceives things about Unbinding, he conceives things in Unbinding, he conceives things coming out of Unbinding, he conceives Unbinding as 'mine,' he delights in Unbinding. Why is that? Because he has not comprehended it, I tell you.
what do you think about those who practice modern step by step methods and as a result see nibbana, are they 1st path because of seeing nibbana?
hum what do you mean "modern step by step methods" and "1st path" ? please enumerate.

But according to your quotes , if you replace "perceives" by "imagines" and "conceives" by "supposes or believes or guesses" , maybe the meaning is clear ?
what i wrote was based on the notion of an ordinary person is able to see nibbana while not being a sekkha(learner)

So if you go to a retreat and follow instructions are you a learner now or you become a learner after seeing nibbana?

tinhtan
Posts: 26
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 1:32 pm

Re: What is the difference between "themeless" vs "emptiness" liberation?

Post by tinhtan » Fri Nov 23, 2018 4:05 pm

Hi auto
It seems that you have a misreading of MN1. :juggling:
You writes
"ordinary person perceives nibbana as nibbana. But conceives things about nibbana. Can read it in MN 1"
And you concludes a
"notion of an ordinary person is able to see nibbana while not being a sekkha(learner)" !
I don't know what is your intention while quoting a missing part of MN1, because it concerns an "uninstructed run-of-the-mill person" or an "uninstructed ordinary person" (and the missing part is) who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for people of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma.
This worldling one imagines what is Nibbana, he speculates about Nibbana, and so he thinks about Nibbana through mental conceptions and proliferations.
So if you go to a retreat and follow instructions are you a learner now or you become a learner after seeing nibbana?
Now the one who hears, learns the Buddha teachings, then practices according to the Buddha Dhamma, he is an "instructed ordinary person", he is a hearer (Sāvaka).

With practice, he sees for the first time Nibbana by direct knowledge. and he becomes a Stream winner Sotāpana (magga, phala). The next stages are the Once-returner Sakadāgāmi (magga,phala); the Non-returner Sakadāgāmi (magga,phala), the Holy One Arahatta-magga.
A noble one who is at the one of these 7 stages is called a Sekha (a learner - because he well assimilates what is learned from the Buddha teachings).

And finally the one possessed of the 4th fruition, or Arahatta-phala, is called "Asekha" (no more learner because he has finished the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, destroyed the fetters of becoming, and is released through right knowledge....)

that's my 2 cents....

auto
Posts: 507
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: What is the difference between "themeless" vs "emptiness" liberation?

Post by auto » Sat Nov 24, 2018 12:13 am

tinhtan wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 4:05 pm
Hi auto
It seems that you have a misreading of MN1. :juggling:
You writes
"ordinary person perceives nibbana as nibbana. But conceives things about nibbana. Can read it in MN 1"
And you concludes a
"notion of an ordinary person is able to see nibbana while not being a sekkha(learner)" !
I don't know what is your intention while quoting a missing part of MN1, because it concerns an "uninstructed run-of-the-mill person" or an "uninstructed ordinary person" (and the missing part is) who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for people of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma.
This worldling one imagines what is Nibbana, he speculates about Nibbana, and so he thinks about Nibbana through mental conceptions and proliferations.
(i left the blue parts out to save space, assumed ordinary person is uninstructed anyway..)
he perceives nibbana as nibbana then imagines things about nibbana. So therefore he sees or perceives nibbana, but does he see it with the right wisdom as it is? nope.
So if you go to a retreat and follow instructions are you a learner now or you become a learner after seeing nibbana?
tinhtan wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 4:05 pm
Now the one who hears, learns the Buddha teachings, then practices according to the Buddha Dhamma, he is an "instructed ordinary person", he is a hearer (Sāvaka).
I see how one could be enlightened already, just need discover that nature.
tinhtan wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 4:05 pm

With practice, he sees for the first time Nibbana by direct knowledge. and he becomes a Stream winner Sotāpana (magga, phala). The next stages are the Once-returner Sakadāgāmi (magga,phala); the Non-returner Sakadāgāmi (magga,phala), the Holy One Arahatta-magga.
A noble one who is at the one of these 7 stages is called a Sekha (a learner - because he well assimilates what is learned from the Buddha teachings).

And finally the one possessed of the 4th fruition, or Arahatta-phala, is called "Asekha" (no more learner because he has finished the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, destroyed the fetters of becoming, and is released through right knowledge....)

that's my 2 cents....
whatever phenomena in 1st jhana what are connected with form..he turns away from those phenomena and having done that then inclines his mind to the property of deathless:

https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an ... .than.html
"'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana.' Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk, secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation.

He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self.

He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'
So is one 1st jhana araham? but waht about 2nd jhana is he there still ordinary?

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