Suttas where bhikkhuni teach rebirth ?

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DooDoot
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Suttas where bhikkhuni teach rebirth ?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:40 pm

Dear forum

There are not many suttas in the Nikaya where bhikkhuni provide teachings. Every sutta teaching I have read where a bhikkhuni teaches, the bhikkhuni teaches Higher Dhamma or Lokuttara Dhamma (eg. MN 44; SN 5.2; SN 5.10; etc).

I ask for the posting of any suttas where bhikkhuni teach mundane dhamma, such as "kamma and rebirth"; "past & future lives", etc.

Thank you :smile:

James Tan
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Re: Suttas where bhikkhuni teach rebirth ?

Post by James Tan » Sat Sep 22, 2018 3:36 pm

Sālamālikā

https://suttacentral.net/thi-ap16/en/walters


On Candabhāgā River’s bank,
I was a kinnarī back then.
I saw the Stainless One, Buddha,
the Self-Become, Unconquered One.

Happy, with pleasure in my heart,
awe-struck, with hands pressed together,
taking a sal-flower garland,
I worshipped the Self-Become One.


Due to that karma done very well,
with intention and firm resolve,
discarding my human body,
I went to Tāvatiṃsa then
.

I was fixed in the chief queen’s place
of thirty-six kings of the gods.
Whatever my mind wishes for,
comes into being as desired.

I was fixed in the chief queen’s place
of ten kings who were wheel-turners.
Being a good-minded woman,
I transmigrated through lifetimes.

My wholesomeness is apparent;
I went forth into homelessness.
Today I’m worthy of pūjā
in the Buddha’s dispensation.

Today, with my mind purified,
the evil-minded one is gone.
All my defilements are destroyed;
now there will be no more rebirth.

My defilements are now burnt up;
all new existence is destroyed.
Like elephants with broken chains,
I am living without constraint.



Being in Best Buddha's presence
was a very good thing for me.
The three knowledges are attained;
I have done what the Buddha taught!

The four analytical modes,
and these eight deliverances,
six special knowledges mastered,
I have done what the Buddha taught!

In the ninety-four aeons since
I worshipped the Buddha back then,
I’ve come to know no bad rebirth:
that’s the fruit of a sal-garland.

My defilements are now burnt up;
all new existence is destroyed.
All my defilements are destroyed;
now there will be no more rebirth.

Thus indeed Bhikkhunī Sālamālikā spoke these verses.

The legend of Sālamālikā Therī
:reading:

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DooDoot
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Re: Suttas where bhikkhuni teach rebirth ?

Post by DooDoot » Sat Sep 22, 2018 11:23 pm

James Tan wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 3:36 pm
Sālamālikā

https://suttacentral.net/thi-ap16/en/walters
Thanks James but it appearse the Apadana Therīpadāna is a later addition, similar to Jataka, Buddhavamsa & Milindapanha.
13 Apadāna Pāḷi
This is a biographical work containing the life stories (past and present) of the Buddha and his arahat disciples. It is divided into two divisions: the Therāpadāna, giving the life stories of the Buddha, of forty-one paccekabuddhas and of five hundred and fifty-nine arahats from the Venerable Sāriputta to the Venerable Raṭṭhapāla; and Therīpadāna, with the life stories of forty therī arahats from Sumedhā Therī to Pesalā Therī.

Apadāna here means a biography or a life story of a particularly accomplished person who has made a firm resolution to strive for the goal he desires and who has ultimately achieved his goal, namely: Buddhahood for an enlightened one, arahatship for his disciples. Whereas the Thera Gāthā and the Therī Gāthā generally reveal the triumphant moment of achievements of the theras and the therīs, the Apadāna describes the up-hill work they have to undertake to reach the summit of their ambition. The Gāthās and the Apadānas supplement one another to unfold the inspiring tales of hard struggles and final conquests.

https://www.tipitaka.org/eot.shtml
13. Apadana — Stories
Biographies, in verse, of the Buddha, 41 Paccekabuddhas ("silent" Buddhas), 549 arahant bhikkhus and 40 arahant bhikkhunis. Many of these stories are characterized by flowery paeans celebrating the glory, wonder, magnificence, etc. of the Buddha. The Apadana is believed to be a late addition to the Canon, added at the Second and Third Buddhist Councils.

https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/index.html

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salayatananirodha
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Re: Suttas where bhikkhuni teach rebirth ?

Post by salayatananirodha » Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:42 am

Yeah, there's another nun in therigatha who recounts her past few births as various animals who were castrated, due to taking others' wives as a man. I don't make a habit of reading commentary, I'm pretty sure that is from suttanta
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


links:
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
http://thaiforestwisdom.org/canonical-texts/
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html

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Re: Suttas where bhikkhuni teach rebirth ?

Post by DNS » Sun Sep 23, 2018 1:30 am

salayatananirodha wrote:
Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:42 am
Yeah, there's another nun in therigatha who recounts her past few births as various animals who were castrated, due to taking others' wives as a man. I don't make a habit of reading commentary, I'm pretty sure that is from suttanta
Correct, if it's in the Therigatha, then it's still considered part of the Sutta Pitaka-->Khuddaka Nikaya. Same with Apadana. (Although, still considered a later edition, by some.)

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Re: Suttas where bhikkhuni teach rebirth ?

Post by DooDoot » Sun Sep 23, 2018 2:40 am

salayatananirodha wrote:
Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:42 am
Yeah, there's another nun in therigatha who recounts her past few births as various animals who were castrated, due to taking others' wives as a man. I don't make a habit of reading commentary, I'm pretty sure that is from suttanta
Thig 15.1. Thanks for that SN however I am looking for suttas where bhikkhunis teach/instruct others. Also, I can't accept Thig 15.1 as authentic because this genre of sutta is rarely found in the suttas. Similar to a certain mere handful of suttas (such as AN 3.15), this sutta appears to be a genre of Apadāna placed into the suttas. Why I view this rare genre of sutta as questionable is because they seem to contradict SN 22.79. Also, this sutta must be one of the origins of the idea that a person is reincarnated as a women because of sexual misconduct.

https://suttacentral.net/thig15.1/en/caf_rhysdavids

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Re: Suttas where bhikkhuni teach rebirth ?

Post by Dhammanando » Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:17 am

If the query’s scope is limited to the first four Nikāyas, then the teachings given by bhikkhunīs in these collections are virtually all concerned with high-level paññā topics. The doctrines comprised within mundane right view are alluded to only twice, in the discourses of Cālā and Upacālā.

.
Cālā Sutta

At Sāvatthī. Then, in the morning, the bhikkhunī Cālā dressed … she sat down at the foot of a tree for the day’s abiding.

Then Māra the Malign approached the bhikkhunī Cālā and said to her: “What don’t you approve of, bhikkhunī?”

“I don’t approve of birth, friend.”

“Why don’t you approve of birth?
Once born, one enjoys sensual pleasures.
Who now has persuaded you of this:
‘Bhikkhunī, don’t approve of birth’?”

The bhikkhunī Cālā:

“For one who is born there is death;
Once born, one encounters sufferings—
Bondage, murder, affliction—
Hence one shouldn’t approve of birth.

“The Buddha has taught the Dhamma,
The transcendence of birth;
For the abandoning of all suffering
He has settled me in the truth.

“As to those beings who fare amidst form,
And those who abide in the formless—
Not having understood cessation,
They come again to renewed existence.”

Then Māra the Malign, realizing, “The bhikkhunī Cālā knows me,” sad and disappointed, disappeared right there.


Upacālā Sutta

At Sāvatthī. Then, in the morning, the bhikkhunī Upacālā dressed … she sat down at the foot of a tree for the day’s abiding.

Then Māra the Malign approached the bhikkhunī Upacālā and said to her: “Where do you wish to be reborn, bhikkhunī?”

“I do not wish to be reborn anywhere, friend.”

“There are Tāvātiṃsa and Yāma devas,
And devatās of the Tusita realm,
Devas who take delight in creating,
And devas who exercise control.
Direct your mind there to those realms
And you’ll experience delight.”

The bhikkhunī Upacālā:

“There are Tāvatiṃsa and Yāma devas,
And devatās of the Tusita realm,
Devas who take delight in creating,
And devas who exercise control.
They are still bound by sensual bondage,
They come again under Māra’s control.

“All the world is on fire,
All the world is burning,
All the world is ablaze,
All the world is quaking.

“That which does not quake or blaze,
That to which worldlings do not resort,
Where there is no place for Māra:
That is where my mind delights.”

Then Māra the Malign, realizing, “The bhikkhunī Upacālā knows me, sad and disappointed, disappeared right there.

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Re: Suttas where bhikkhuni teach rebirth ?

Post by DooDoot » Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:35 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:17 am
If the query’s scope is limited to the first four Nikāyas, then the teachings given by bhikkhunīs in these collections are virtually all concerned with high-level paññā topics. The doctrines comprised within mundane right view are alluded to only twice, in the discourses of Cālā and Upacālā.
Thank you for your reply Venerable Dhammanando; although naturally I personally question a mundane categorization of the Cālā Sutta because it depends on the interpretation of "jati".

This being said, my question for you (which is part of the intention of this thread) is: "Does the Vinaya say anything about this matter?"

My reason for asking these questions is I have always had the speculative impression the Buddha's bhikkhunis were only allowed to teach high-level paññā topics (possibly to avoid reproach or criticism from non-Buddhists; given women are often more susceptible to censure, culturally).

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Re: Suttas where bhikkhuni teach rebirth ?

Post by Dhammanando » Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:46 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:35 am
naturally I personally question a mundane categorization of the Cālā Sutta because it depends on the interpretation of "jati".
Naturally. :lol:
DooDoot wrote:
Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:35 am
This being said, my question for you (which is part of the intention of this thread) is: "Does the Vinaya say anything about this matter?"
I don't think the Vinaya Piṭaka records the talks of bhikkhunīs on any subject at all. Even in the talks of bhikkhus there's very little connected with mundane right view – e.g., in the whole Piṭaka the word vipāka only occurs four times, all in connection with Moggallāna's encounters with hungry ghosts.

https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/pi-tv-bu-vb-pj4

Naturally this is no surprise in a text whose principal concern is with history and law.
DooDoot wrote:
Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:35 am
My reason for asking these questions is I have always had the speculative impression the Buddha's bhikkhunis were only allowed to teach high-level paññā topics (possibly to avoid reproach or criticism from non-Buddhists; given women are often more susceptible to censure, culturally).
I suppose one can't rule it out, but I think that if it were so, it would be quite remarkable for there to be no Vinaya rule to that effect.

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Re: Suttas where bhikkhuni teach rebirth ?

Post by DooDoot » Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:51 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:46 am
I suppose one can't rule it out, but I think that if it were so, it would be quite remarkable for there to be no Vinaya rule to that effect.
Sounds reasonable. Thank you again Venerable Dhammanando. Also, thank you everyone who contributed answers to my question. :thanks:

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Re: Suttas where bhikkhuni teach rebirth ?

Post by thomaslaw » Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:14 am

The suttas below are in the collection SN 5. Bhikkhuni Samyutta. The collection about bhikkhuni in most cases that Mara tries to interrupt and disturb Bhikkhuni's concentration; this is followed by the bhikkhuni and Mara challenging each other in 'verse'; and finally Mara, after being identified, departs defeated and disappointed. They talked to each other in verse! This feature is also similar to SN 4. Mara Samyutta. :thinking:
Dhammanando wrote:
Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:17 am
If the query’s scope is limited to the first four Nikāyas, then the teachings given by bhikkhunīs in these collections are virtually all concerned with high-level paññā topics. The doctrines comprised within mundane right view are alluded to only twice, in the discourses of Cālā and Upacālā.

.
Cālā Sutta

At Sāvatthī. Then, in the morning, the bhikkhunī Cālā dressed … she sat down at the foot of a tree for the day’s abiding.

Then Māra the Malign approached the bhikkhunī Cālā and said to her: “What don’t you approve of, bhikkhunī?”

“I don’t approve of birth, friend.”

“Why don’t you approve of birth?
Once born, one enjoys sensual pleasures.
Who now has persuaded you of this:
‘Bhikkhunī, don’t approve of birth’?”

The bhikkhunī Cālā:

“For one who is born there is death;
Once born, one encounters sufferings—
Bondage, murder, affliction—
Hence one shouldn’t approve of birth.

“The Buddha has taught the Dhamma,
The transcendence of birth;
For the abandoning of all suffering
He has settled me in the truth.

“As to those beings who fare amidst form,
And those who abide in the formless—
Not having understood cessation,
They come again to renewed existence.”

Then Māra the Malign, realizing, “The bhikkhunī Cālā knows me,” sad and disappointed, disappeared right there.


Upacālā Sutta

At Sāvatthī. Then, in the morning, the bhikkhunī Upacālā dressed … she sat down at the foot of a tree for the day’s abiding.

Then Māra the Malign approached the bhikkhunī Upacālā and said to her: “Where do you wish to be reborn, bhikkhunī?”

“I do not wish to be reborn anywhere, friend.”

“There are Tāvātiṃsa and Yāma devas,
And devatās of the Tusita realm,
Devas who take delight in creating,
And devas who exercise control.
Direct your mind there to those realms
And you’ll experience delight.”

The bhikkhunī Upacālā:

“There are Tāvatiṃsa and Yāma devas,
And devatās of the Tusita realm,
Devas who take delight in creating,
And devas who exercise control.
They are still bound by sensual bondage,
They come again under Māra’s control.

“All the world is on fire,
All the world is burning,
All the world is ablaze,
All the world is quaking.

“That which does not quake or blaze,
That to which worldlings do not resort,
Where there is no place for Māra:
That is where my mind delights.”

Then Māra the Malign, realizing, “The bhikkhunī Upacālā knows me, sad and disappointed, disappeared right there.

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Re: Suttas where bhikkhuni teach rebirth ?

Post by Dhammanando » Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:30 am

thomaslaw wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:14 am
The suttas below are in the collection SN 5. Bhikkhuni Samyutta. The collection about bhikkhuni in most cases that Mara tries to interrupt and disturb Bhikkhuni's concentration; this is followed by the bhikkhuni and Mara challenging each other in 'verse'; and finally Mara, after being identified, departs defeated and disappointed. They talked to each other in verse! This feature is also similar to SN 4. Mara Samyutta. :thinking:
And is there any particular conclusion that you think can be drawn from these observations?

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Re: Suttas where bhikkhuni teach rebirth ?

Post by thomaslaw » Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:19 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:30 am
thomaslaw wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:14 am
The suttas below are in the collection SN 5. Bhikkhuni Samyutta. The collection about bhikkhuni in most cases that Mara tries to interrupt and disturb Bhikkhuni's concentration; this is followed by the bhikkhuni and Mara challenging each other in 'verse'; and finally Mara, after being identified, departs defeated and disappointed. They talked to each other in verse! This feature is also similar to SN 4. Mara Samyutta. :thinking:
And is there any particular conclusion that you think can be drawn from these observations?
One thought: SN 5. Bhikkhuni Samyutta is more about the notion of Mara rather than Bhikkhuni. It is the early Buddhist adaptation of general Indian religious beliefs about divine beings (devas), and one of them is Mara. The adaptation style is presented in verse in early Buddhist texts.

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