How did the realisation of Kondañña & other stream-enterers occur?

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
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DooDoot
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How did the realisation of Kondañña & other stream-enterers occur?

Post by DooDoot » Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:57 am

Dear Dhamma forum

In SN 56.11 and other suttas (such as MN 56), the stream-enterers such as Kondañña arose due to the following realisation:
“yaṃ kiñci samudayadhammaṃ sabbaṃ taṃ nirodhadhamman”ti

Everything that has a beginning has an end (Sujato).

Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation. (Bodhi)

Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation. (Thanissaro)

Whatever is subject to arising is all subject to cessation. (Ñanamoli)

Whatever has the nature of arising, has the nature of ceasing. (Piyadassi)

https://suttacentral.net/sn56.11/en/sujato
In SN 56.11, prior to the realisation, it was taught:
Now this, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of the origin of suffering: it is this craving which leads to renewed becoming, accompanied by delight and lust, seeking delight here and there; that is, craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming..

Now this, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of the cessation of suffering: it is the remainderless fading away and cessation of that same craving, the giving up and relinquishing of it, freedom from it, nonreliance on it..
My question for discussion is how did the teaching about the arising & cesssation of craving & suffering result in the realisation of "whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation"?

Thanks

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Re: How did the realisation of Kondañña & other stream-enterers occur?

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:00 pm

Greetings DooDoot,

You may find some clues to help answer your question at these previous topics...

The arising of the Dhamma-eye
The Dhamma eye: "whatever arising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"


Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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DooDoot
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Re: How did the realisation of Kondañña & other stream-enterers occur?

Post by DooDoot » Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:05 pm

retrofuturist wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:00 pm
You may find some clues to help answer your question at these previous topics...

The arising of the Dhamma-eye
The Dhamma eye: "whatever arising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"
Thank you Paul

Possibly you could post what you regard as the most compelling answers, similar to a "Best Of" or "Greatest Hits" album.

Thanks :smile:

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Re: How did the realisation of Kondañña & other stream-enterers occur?

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:10 pm

Greetings DooDoot,

I think it lies in the reality that "sabbe sankhara anicca".

Sabbe means everything... thus it relates to EVERY-THING!

However, at some level many people refuse to open up to and investigate that reality. All sankharas (things) are mind-made in that their shaping, establishment etc. is a mental construction.
Dhp 1 wrote:Mind precedes all things.
Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought.
If with an impure mind a person speaks or acts
Suffering follows him like the wheel that follows the foot of the ox.
If the mind ceased fabrication, there would be no "things" and no "thing" capable of giving rise to suffering. This can be seen in the first few steps of paticcasamuppada in its "forward" and "cessation" modes.

This is how the stream-entrant can experientially know that non-fabrication leads to non-dukkha (i.e. sukha, ease) as there can be no craving for what is not conceived. A sutta teaching that can assist with that realisation is...
SN 47.42 wrote:With the arising of attentiveness there is the arising of dhammas. With the cessation of attentiveness there is the cessation of dhammas
The stream-entrant isn't capable of always doing this, because of asavas etc., but they have the vision to see where dukkha ends, and the path by which this could be achieved.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: How did the realisation of Kondañña & other stream-enterers occur?

Post by arunam » Wed Sep 12, 2018 4:56 am

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:57 am

My question for discussion is how did the teaching about the arising & cesssation of craving & suffering result in the realisation of "whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation"?

Thanks
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā- is a statement of dependant origination

“yaṃ kiñci samudayadhammaṃ sabbaṃ taṃ nirodhadhamman”ti- is a statement of dependant origination

Four noble truths- is a statement of dependant origination
First & Second truth: Craving---->Dukkha
Third & Fourth truth: Magga---->Nirodha
A path is made by walking on it

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Re: How did the realisation of Kondañña & other stream-enterers occur?

Post by salayatananirodha » Wed Sep 12, 2018 6:29 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:10 pm
Greetings DooDoot,

I think it lies in the reality that "sabbe sankhara anicca".

Sabbe means everything... thus it relates to EVERY-THING!

However, at some level many people refuse to open up to and investigate that reality. All sankharas (things) are mind-made in that their shaping, establishment etc. is a mental construction.
Dhp 1 wrote:Mind precedes all things.
Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought.
If with an impure mind a person speaks or acts
Suffering follows him like the wheel that follows the foot of the ox.
If the mind ceased fabrication, there would be no "things" and no "thing" capable of giving rise to suffering. This can be seen in the first few steps of paticcasamuppada in its "forward" and "cessation" modes.

This is how the stream-entrant can experientially know that non-fabrication leads to non-dukkha (i.e. sukha, ease) as there can be no craving for what is not conceived. A sutta teaching that can assist with that realisation is...
SN 47.42 wrote:With the arising of attentiveness there is the arising of dhammas. With the cessation of attentiveness there is the cessation of dhammas
The stream-entrant isn't capable of always doing this, because of asavas etc., but they have the vision to see where dukkha ends, and the path by which this could be achieved.

Metta,
Paul. :)
Dhammā are things, conditioned or unconditioned; saṅkhārā are fabrications, preparations, or formations, conditioned, inconstant and suffering.
Dhp 1 refers to dhammā rather than saṅkhārā.
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


links:
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
http://thaiforestwisdom.org/canonical-texts/
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html

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Re: How did the realisation of Kondañña & other stream-enterers occur?

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:28 am

Greetings,
salayatananirodha wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 6:29 am
Dhp 1 refers to dhammā rather than saṅkhārā.
And all dhammas with the exception of nibbana are sankhata, so your objection is moot.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: How did the realisation of Kondañña & other stream-enterers occur?

Post by auto » Wed Sep 12, 2018 10:54 am

it could be what dhamma eye has. Like regular eye has vision, then dhamma eye has "Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation".

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DooDoot
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Re: How did the realisation of Kondañña & other stream-enterers occur?

Post by DooDoot » Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:41 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:10 pm
I think it lies in the reality that "sabbe sankhara anicca".

Sabbe means everything... thus it relates to EVERY-THING!
Maybe. However, "sabbe sankhara anicca" was not taught to Kondañña in the 1st sermon. Therefore, my question is how did Kondañña make the leap from the arising & ceasing of craving & dukkha to "sabbe sankhara anicca"? :shrug:
retrofuturist wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:10 pm
If the mind ceased fabrication, there would be no "things" and no "thing" capable of giving rise to suffering. This can be seen in the first few steps of paticcasamuppada in its "forward" and "cessation" modes.
Maybe. But the 12 links of paticcasamuppada was not taught to Kondañña in the 1st sermon. The 2nd link of fabrication was not mentioned.
retrofuturist wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:10 pm
This is how the stream-entrant can experientially know that non-fabrication leads to non-dukkha (i.e. sukha, ease) as there can be no craving for what is not conceived.
Yes, but again, I do not recall the 1st sermon mentioning the "not conceived". It only appears to refer to the abandoning of craving.
retrofuturist wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:10 pm
A sutta teaching that can assist with that realisation is...
SN 47.42 wrote:With the arising of attentiveness there is the arising of dhammas. With the cessation of attentiveness there is the cessation of dhammas
The stream-entrant isn't capable of always doing this, because of asavas etc., but they have the vision to see where dukkha ends, and the path by which this could be achieved.
I recall you posting SN 47.42 before however for me SN 47.42 refers to giving attention to the Teachings and thus the arising of the Path. Regardless, I have my doubts about the relevance of SN 47.42 to the question; which includes your interpretation of it. I think your interpretation of it is too advanced or lofty for what was taught in the 1st sermon.

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Re: How did the realisation of Kondañña & other stream-enterers occur?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Sep 13, 2018 1:59 am

Thank you all posters for your contributions. :bow:

I must confess after I wrote this many times previously pondered question and then went to bed, a satisfactory answer to my sincere question immediately arose in my mind as I laid down in bed.

In my opinion, Kondañña realised the teachings about "birth, aging, illness. death", "separation from the loved" and "the arising & ceasing of the different types of craving & becoming". This resulted in the realization of the impermanence of all conditioned things.

I previously overlooked how the 1st noble truth teaching might have contributed to the realisation.

Kind regards :smile:

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Re: How did the realisation of Kondañña & other stream-enterers occur?

Post by Volovsky » Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:40 am

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:57 am
My question for discussion is how did the teaching about the arising & cesssation of craving & suffering result in the realisation of "whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation"?
I would explain it like this: "whatever is subject to origination" = dukkha (since all, which is subject to origination is dukkha) = 1st noble truth. "subject to cessation" = Nibbāna = 3rd noble truth.

But the Dhamnacakkappavattana sutta also has a very condense explanation of dependent origination (taņhā paccaya => dukkha or 2nd truth => 1st truth; taņhā nirodha => dukkha nirodha or the 3rd truth), since insight into dependent origination is often associated with the fruit of sotāpanna. So, the formula "whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation" also has an aspect of dependent origination.

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Re: How did the realisation of Kondañña & other stream-enterers occur?

Post by pegembara » Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:27 am

My question for discussion is how did the teaching about the arising & cesssation of craving & suffering result in the realisation of "whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation"?
I believe craving leads one to only notice the arising aspect and ignore the ceasing. Eg when anger arises, craving/clinging leads to other things - more thoughts, verbal or physical actions. When there is no craving/clinging, the anger is observed to arise and pass away. Ditto all conditioned objects(sankharas). Another example is when eating. Craving leads one to take another mouthful without allowing the sensations from the previous one to cease.
Now this, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of the cessation of suffering: it is the remainderless fading away and cessation of that same craving, the giving up and relinquishing of it, freedom from it, nonreliance on it..
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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Re: How did the realisation of Kondañña & other stream-enterers occur?

Post by cappuccino » Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:50 am

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:57 am
My question for discussion is how did the teaching about the arising & cesssation of craving & suffering result in the realisation of "whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation"?
Craving and suffering?

Rather everything in this world, is arising and ceasing.

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Re: How did the realisation of Kondañña & other stream-enterers occur?

Post by James Tan » Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:51 am

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 1:59 am
Thank you all posters for your contributions. :bow:

I must confess after I wrote this many times previously pondered question and then went to bed, a satisfactory answer to my sincere question immediately arose in my mind as I laid down in bed.

In my opinion, Kondañña realised the teachings about "birth, aging, illness. death", "separation from the loved" and "the arising & ceasing of the different types of craving & becoming". This resulted in the realization of the impermanence of all conditioned things.

I previously overlooked how the 1st noble truth teaching might have contributed to the realisation.

Kind regards :smile:
Hello DooDoot ,

You seems to have a similar incident like ananda , he attained arahant stage before his head hit the pillow . But you realised something else .
However ,
Sorry to say that your realisation explanation is not accurate .

I would say , Kondanna actually realised everything that arises has no permanency therefore saw everything has an ending .
Thus , the penetration of the processes gain insight into the not self nature of everything .
Further , in this realisation of the arising and passing away of all things , he realised that the cause of suffering is craving to whatever phenomena that is not permanent .

As such he saw the Noble Eight Right Path !

This is the First Turning of the wheel !



Thanks .
:reading:

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Re: How did the realisation of Kondañña & other stream-enterers occur?

Post by SarathW » Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:19 am

DD wrote:
Maybe. But the 12 links of paticcasamuppada was not taught to Kondañña in the 1st sermon. The 2nd link of fabrication was not mentioned.
Noble Eightfold Path is the antidote for the Dependent Origination.
First Noble truth is the Dependent Origination.
A person can not have right view without knowing the Dependent Origination.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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