petavatthu

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
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salayatananirodha
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petavatthu

Post by salayatananirodha » Sat Sep 01, 2018 5:49 am

authentic, not authentic, partly authentic? https://www.amazon.com/Stories-Ghosts-P ... 9556870539
I was kind of interested in buying this for someone, but I would like to know what inconsistencies one may point out between this and the early buddhist texts. My co-worker said she likes thrillers and monsters or suspense, so I ordered this to give to her https://www.amazon.com/Before-Buddha-Wa ... 1614293546; obviously it's not an authentic text, but given that I gave her the dhammapada (pocket version), I thought I'd already sufficiently exposed her to the dharma.
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


links:
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
http://thaiforestwisdom.org/canonical-texts/
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html

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salayatananirodha
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Re: petavatthu

Post by salayatananirodha » Sat Sep 01, 2018 5:56 am

16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


links:
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
http://thaiforestwisdom.org/canonical-texts/
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html

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Dhammanando
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Re: petavatthu

Post by Dhammanando » Sat Sep 01, 2018 12:52 pm

There is a pioneering translation of both texts, Petavatthu and Vimānavatthu, available here:

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.282259

BKh
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Re: petavatthu

Post by BKh » Sun Sep 02, 2018 2:12 am

You can read quite a few selections from that translation on Sutta Central here: https://suttacentral.net/pv

There are no contradictions between anything found in the Petavatthu or Vimanavatthu and what people call the early Buddhist texts. People may have theories why they are later texts, but there are no contradictions.
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salayatananirodha
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Re: petavatthu

Post by salayatananirodha » Sun Sep 02, 2018 6:13 am

thanks venerables or venerable and honorable
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


links:
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
http://thaiforestwisdom.org/canonical-texts/
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html

TRobinson465
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Re: petavatthu

Post by TRobinson465 » Fri Sep 07, 2018 3:53 am

BKh wrote:
Sun Sep 02, 2018 2:12 am
You can read quite a few selections from that translation on Sutta Central here: https://suttacentral.net/pv

There are no contradictions between anything found in the Petavatthu or Vimanavatthu and what people call the early Buddhist texts. People may have theories why they are later texts, but there are no contradictions.
This is interesting. Do you know if SC has a similar collection for the Vimanavatthu?
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

TRobinson465
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Re: petavatthu

Post by TRobinson465 » Fri Sep 07, 2018 3:57 am

TRobinson465 wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 3:53 am
BKh wrote:
Sun Sep 02, 2018 2:12 am
You can read quite a few selections from that translation on Sutta Central here: https://suttacentral.net/pv

There are no contradictions between anything found in the Petavatthu or Vimanavatthu and what people call the early Buddhist texts. People may have theories why they are later texts, but there are no contradictions.
This is interesting. Do you know if SC has a similar collection for the Vimanavatthu?
Nevermind. I actually found it just by altering the url and guessing

https://suttacentral.net/vv
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

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StormBorn
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Re: petavatthu

Post by StormBorn » Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:29 am

salayatananirodha wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 5:49 am
authentic, not authentic, partly authentic?
Hungry ghosts or ghosts are a major way of livelihood for priests in primitive cultures. :rolleye: But according to this, Beyond Primitivism: Indigenous Religious Traditions and Modernity eminent Sri Lankan scholar Professor Gananath Obesekara believes Peta Vattu to be a later canonical text in Buddhism. He’s not alone in this knowledge.

As Gehman observes in The Minor Anthologies of the Pali Canon IV,
It is true, then, beyond a doubt that Petavatthu literature is relatively late in composition, and only through popular use found entrance into the Pali canon. We are very apparently dealing with a low type of Buddhism; popular ghost stories in most cases were, in this work, given a Buddhist veneer … The base type of Buddhism found in this work evidently directed the Siamese theologians in not admitting the book into printed edition of the canon.
“Greater in battle than the man who would conquer a thousand-thousand men, is he who would conquer just one—himself.”

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Dhammanando
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Re: petavatthu

Post by Dhammanando » Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:27 pm

Gehman wrote: The base type of Buddhism found in this work evidently directed the Siamese theologians in not admitting the book into printed edition of the canon.
The "Siamese theologians" (!) never excluded the Petavatthu from printed editions of the Canon.

I suspect what Gehman meant is that the said theologians did with the Petavatthu exactly what they did with the Dhammapada and the Jātaka: printed the verses (which are canonical) in the Tipiṭaka but the background stories (which are commentarial) separately.

thomaslaw
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Re: petavatthu

Post by thomaslaw » Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:03 am

Dear Dhamma friends,

About peta 'tormented ghost', it is also mentioned in the suttas SN 19 Lakkhana Samyutta. See also pp. 78-81 in Mun-keat Choong's article "A comparison of the Chinese and Pāli Saṃyukta/Saṃyuttas on the Venerable Mahā-Maudgalyāyana (Mahā-Moggallāna)", in Buddhist Studies Review, v. 34.1 (2017), pp. 67-84.

Kind regards,

Thomas

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StormBorn
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Re: petavatthu

Post by StormBorn » Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:56 pm

thomaslaw wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:03 am
Dear Dhamma friends,

About peta 'tormented ghost', it is also mentioned in the suttas SN 19 Lakkhana Samyutta. See also pp. 78-81 in Mun-keat Choong's article "A comparison of the Chinese and Pāli Saṃyukta/Saṃyuttas on the Venerable Mahā-Maudgalyāyana (Mahā-Moggallāna)", in Buddhist Studies Review, v. 34.1 (2017), pp. 67-84.

Kind regards,

Thomas
The Chinese version of SN 19 dated to 435–443 CE.--almost closer to the Buddhaghosa's time. Therefore, having a Chinese parallel doesn't mean it was said by the Buddha.

Note: This and my earlier post are parts of answers to my questions that I posted here (except the emoji :rolleye: ). Sorry, didn't mention that earlier.
“Greater in battle than the man who would conquer a thousand-thousand men, is he who would conquer just one—himself.”

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Coëmgenu
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Re: petavatthu

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Sep 09, 2018 7:45 pm

StormBorn wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:56 pm
thomaslaw wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:03 am
Dear Dhamma friends,

About peta 'tormented ghost', it is also mentioned in the suttas SN 19 Lakkhana Samyutta. See also pp. 78-81 in Mun-keat Choong's article "A comparison of the Chinese and Pāli Saṃyukta/Saṃyuttas on the Venerable Mahā-Maudgalyāyana (Mahā-Moggallāna)", in Buddhist Studies Review, v. 34.1 (2017), pp. 67-84.

Kind regards,

Thomas
The Chinese version of SN 19 dated to 435–443 CE.--almost closer to the Buddhaghosa's time. Therefore, having a Chinese parallel doesn't mean it was said by the Buddha.

Note: This and my earlier post are parts of answers to my questions that I posted here (except the emoji :rolleye: ). Sorry, didn't mention that earlier.
The translation is from the 400s. The scripture is considerably older.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः

thomaslaw
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Re: petavatthu

Post by thomaslaw » Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:48 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 7:45 pm
StormBorn wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:56 pm
thomaslaw wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:03 am
Dear Dhamma friends,

About peta 'tormented ghost', it is also mentioned in the suttas SN 19 Lakkhana Samyutta. See also pp. 78-81 in Mun-keat Choong's article "A comparison of the Chinese and Pāli Saṃyukta/Saṃyuttas on the Venerable Mahā-Maudgalyāyana (Mahā-Moggallāna)", in Buddhist Studies Review, v. 34.1 (2017), pp. 67-84.

Kind regards,

Thomas
The Chinese version of SN 19 dated to 435–443 CE.--almost closer to the Buddhaghosa's time. Therefore, having a Chinese parallel doesn't mean it was said by the Buddha.
...
The translation is from the 400s. The scripture is considerably older.
But, note that the texts pertain to the vyakarana-anga (P. veyyakarana-anga) portion of SA/SN, according to Yinshun (see pp. 68-9 in the Choong's article). That means, these discourses were a later collection subordinated to the relevant Sutra-anga sections.

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StormBorn
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Re: petavatthu

Post by StormBorn » Mon Sep 10, 2018 2:59 am

thomaslaw wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:48 am
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 7:45 pm
StormBorn wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:56 pm


The Chinese version of SN 19 dated to 435–443 CE.--almost closer to the Buddhaghosa's time. Therefore, having a Chinese parallel doesn't mean it was said by the Buddha.
...
The translation is from the 400s. The scripture is considerably older.
But, note that the texts pertain to the vyakarana-anga (P. veyyakarana-anga) portion of SA/SN, according to Yinshun (see pp. 68-9 in the Choong's article). That means, these discourses were a later collection subordinated to the relevant Sutra-anga sections.
Thanks. Similarly one might say that the The Moon is considerably older too as it has two Saṃyuktāgama parallels (oldest being 352–431 CE) and a Sanskrit parallel. From the content of the sutta we can clearly conclude that the sutta is a later fabrication and perhaps an attempt to make the Buddha so powerful to primitive eyes, but at modern times we know this is just a lunar eclipse.

Then you find The Sun also, but no Chinese parallels.

Credit: Ven. Kusalagavesi
“Greater in battle than the man who would conquer a thousand-thousand men, is he who would conquer just one—himself.”

thomaslaw
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Re: petavatthu

Post by thomaslaw » Mon Sep 10, 2018 4:11 am

StormBorn wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 2:59 am
thomaslaw wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:48 am
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 7:45 pm


The translation is from the 400s. The scripture is considerably older.
But, note that the texts pertain to the vyakarana-anga (P. veyyakarana-anga) portion of SA/SN, according to Yinshun (see pp. 68-9 in the Choong's article). That means, these discourses were a later collection subordinated to the relevant Sutra-anga sections.
Thanks. Similarly one might say that the The Moon is considerably older too as it has two Saṃyuktāgama parallels (oldest being 352–431 CE) and a Sanskrit parallel. From the content of the sutta we can clearly conclude that the sutta is a later fabrication and perhaps an attempt to make the Buddha so powerful to primitive eyes, but at modern times we know this is just a lunar eclipse.

Then you find The Sun also, but no Chinese parallels.

Credit: Ven. Kusalagavesi
How do you make up the date: oldest being 352–431 CE?

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