This chinese agama version of Anapanasati matches my experiences

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
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budo
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This chinese agama version of Anapanasati matches my experiences

Post by budo » Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:02 am

EA 17.1 aligns with my experience up to the portion of the jhanas but not after. I like how it connects to jhanas as I haven't seen a sutta connect any practice to jhanas yet in the nikayas. I will give my interpretation in red and source is at the bottom:


A bhikṣu intent on a quiet, secluded and really lonely place [goes there], sits down cross-
legged and straightens body and mind. Concentrating on the tip of his nose without letting
mental proliferation (nānātva) arise, he breathes out[6] a long [breath] and is fully aware of
it; breathing in a long [breath], he is fully aware of it; breathing out a short [breath], he is
fully aware of it; breathing in a short [breath], he is fully aware of it; breathing out a cool
[breath] ... breathing in a cool [breath] ..., breathing out a warm [breath] ... breathing in a
warm [breath], he is fully aware of it. He contemplates the whole bodily [process of]
inhaling and exhaling[7] and is fully aware of everything. When there is breathing he
is fully aware of its presence, and when there is no breathing, he is fully aware of its absence


Focusing on the breath until it disappears

In the event of breathing out conditioned by the mind, he is fully aware of it; and in the event
of breathing in conditioned by the mind, he is fully aware of it.


How breathing is conditioned by the mind, an anxious mind will affect breathing, and so will a calm mind will affect breathing as well, therefore the characteristics of the breath are a reflection of the mind. When the breath has stilled on its own, so has the mind.

In this way, Rāhula, one can practise [mindfulness of] breathing and thereby abandon all thoughts of aversion and
confusion (vikṣiptasaṁjñā), overcome all sorrow and thus obtain the taste of deathlessness as sublime result.

The five hindrances are suppressed and jhana follows

Then Rāhula wisely (manasi-kṛ) thus: A mind full of attachment subsequently set free from [all passions] is cleansed (nirmukta) of all that is karmically unwholesome (akuśala). He [entered and] remained in the first absorption (dhyāna) in which there is thinking, deliberation (savitarka, savicāra)[10] and mindfully experiencing joy (prīti) and happiness (sukha).

After the four jhanas he attains supernatural powers which leads to destruction of asavas as follows

Moreover, he directed his mind to effect the destruction (kṣaya) of the mind’s malign influences (āsrava). He realised and knew in accordance with fact: This is unsatisfactoriness (duḥkha); he realised and knew in accordance with fact the origin (samudaya)[16] of unsatisfactoriness, its final cessation (duḥkhanirodha) and what has necessarily to be done (avaśyakārya) in order to overcome unsatisfactoriness[17].

and thus true vipassana as follows

By dint of such penetrating insight (vipaśyanā), his mind was freed from the malign influences of desire (kāmāsrava), of becoming (bhava) and of ignorance (avidyā). Having realised [ultimate] freedom (vimukti), he gained the [insight-]knowledge of this freedom and knew in accordance with fact: Birth and death have come to an end, the holy life (brahmacarya) has been lived, what had to be done has been done, and there will be no more coming into existence.

At that time Venerable Rāhula became an Arhat[18] and, after his realisation of arhatship, he rose from his seat, adjusted his robes and went to the Exalted One’s whereabouts. [There] he bowed down his head at [the Exalted One’s] feet, stood to one side and said to the Exalted One: [My] aspirations have come true: the eradication of all malign influences.

source: https://sites.google.com/site/ekottara/eaxv

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Re: This chinese agama version of Anapanasati matches my experiences

Post by DooDoot » Sat Aug 18, 2018 3:28 am

budo wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:02 am
A bhikṣu intent on a quiet, secluded and really lonely place [goes there], sits down cross-legged and straightens body and mind. Concentrating on the tip of his nose without letting mental proliferation (nānātva) arise
I imagine to concentrate on one point is too rigid (suppressive) and won't let stored sankharas rise up, dissolve & purify. I think concentrating on voidness or "letting go" ("vossagga") as the Buddha taught at the end of MN 118 and also in SN 48.10 is better because it is more pure & flexible.
budo wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:02 am
he breathes out[6] a long [breath] and is fully aware of it; breathing in a long [breath], he is fully aware of it; breathing out a short [breath], he is fully aware of it; breathing in a short [breath], he is fully aware of it; breathing out a cool
[breath] ... breathing in a cool [breath] ..., breathing out a warm [breath] ... breathing in a warm [breath], he is fully aware of it.
Useful description above of steps 1 & 2 of MN 118; to encourage the practitioner towards familiarity with the subtle nuances of breathing.
budo wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:02 am
He contemplates the whole bodily [process of] inhaling and exhaling[7] and is fully aware of everything. When there is breathing he is fully aware of its presence, and when there is no breathing, he is fully aware of its absence
The above sounds like a loss of clarity; which I think should never occur (until jhana is reached). When jhana occurs, I imagine the five factors (including mental image) will replace the breathing as meditation object. Thus, no loss of awareness actually occurs.
budo wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:02 am
In the event of breathing out conditioned by the mind, he is fully aware of it; and in the event of breathing in conditioned by the mind, he is fully aware of it.

How breathing is conditioned by the mind, an anxious mind will affect breathing, and so will a calm mind will affect breathing as well, therefore the characteristics of the breath are a reflection of the mind. When the breath has stilled on its own, so has the mind.
The above sounds very important but not mentioned in MN 118 or anywhere in the Pali if step 3 is translated as "contemplates the whole bodily [process of] inhaling and exhaling". Since "contemplating the whole bodily [process of] inhaling and exhaling" has no relevance to wisdom & insight, step 3 of MN 118 should probably be translated as "all kaya", namely, experiencing how mind, breath & body affect & interrelate with each other.
budo wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:02 am
Then Rāhula wisely (manasi-kṛ) thus: A mind full of attachment subsequently set free from [all passions] is cleansed (nirmukta) of all that is karmically unwholesome (akuśala). He [entered and] remained in the first absorption (dhyāna) in which there is thinking, deliberation (savitarka, savicāra)[10] and mindfully experiencing joy (prīti) and happiness (sukha).

After the four jhanas he attains supernatural powers which leads to destruction of asavas as follows
The above is not Anapanasati. It is jhana. Anapanasati has sixteen stages in every sutta.
budo wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:02 am
At that time Venerable Rāhula became an Arhat and, after his realisation of arhatship, he rose from his seat, adjusted his robes and went to the Exalted One’s whereabouts. [There] he bowed down his head at [the Exalted One’s] feet, stood to one side and said to the Exalted One: [My] aspirations have come true: the eradication of all malign influences.
The above shows how inauthentic the Agama are; given history records (be it true or false) Rahula was not an arahant when the Buddha was alive.

In summary, the above Agama mentions a very important principle, namely, "breathing conditioned by the mind". Step 7 & 8 of MN 118 refers to "citta sankhara", which appears to mean: "how the citta is conditioned by feelings of rapture & happiness". Similar to step 8, step 4 refers to "calming kaya sankhara", which means "calming the breathing, which is the conditioner of the physical body". Step 3 should imitate step 7, namely, be called "experiencing kaya-sankhara". However, the Buddha did not describe step 3 as "experiencing kaya-sankhara" because he appeared to wish to also emphasise how breathing is conditioned by the mind. Thus Buddha called step 3 in MN 118: "experiencing all kaya"; which means experiencing mind, breath & body together; in their three-fold mutual causal relationship of "conditioning" ("sankhara") eachother simultaneously.
budo wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:02 am
EA 17.1 aligns with my experience up to the portion of the jhanas but not after. I like how it connects to jhanas as I haven't seen a sutta connect any practice to jhanas yet in the nikayas.
This might be because the rapture & happiness in steps 5 & 6 in MN 118 might not be on the level of jhana but only neighborhood concentration. It seems not all meditation rapture (piti) is jhana. :)

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Re: This chinese agama version of Anapanasati matches my experiences

Post by James Tan » Sat Aug 18, 2018 1:37 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 3:28 am
budo wrote: ↑At that time Venerable Rāhula became an Arhat and, after his realisation of arhatship, he rose from his seat, adjusted his robes and went to the Exalted One’s whereabouts. [There] he bowed down his head at [the Exalted One’s] feet, stood to one side and said to the Exalted One: [My] aspirations have come true: the eradication of all malign influences.
The above shows how inauthentic the Agama are; given history records (be it true or false) Rahula was not an arahant when the Buddha was alive.


https://suttacentral.net/mn147/en/sujato

That is what the Buddha said. Satisfied, Venerable Rāhula was happy with what the Buddha said. And while this discourse was being spoken, Rāhula’s mind was freed from defilements by not grasping.And the stainless, immaculate vision of the Dhamma arose in those thousands of deities: “Everything that has a beginning has an end.”



https://suttacentral.net/mn147/en/bodhi

That is what the Blessed One said. The venerable Rāhula was satisfied and delighted in the Blessed One’s words. Now while this discourse was being spoken, through not clinging the venerable Rāhula’s mind was liberated from the taints. And in those many thousands of deities there arose the spotless immaculate vision of the Dhamma: “All that is subject to arising is subject to cessation.”



https://suttacentral.net/sn35.121/en/bodhi

This is what the Blessed One said. Elated, the Venerable Rahula delighted in the Blessed One’s statement. And while this discourse was being spoken, the Venerable Rahula’s mind was liberated from the taints by nonclinging, and in those many thousands of devatās there arose the dust-free, stainless vision of the Dhamma: “Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation.”


What does this mean ?
:reading:

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Re: This chinese agama version of Anapanasati matches my experiences

Post by santa100 » Sat Aug 18, 2018 6:52 pm

DooDoot wrote:The above shows how inauthentic the Agama are; given history records (be it true or false) Rahula was not an arahant when the Buddha was alive.
Rahula actually did attain arahantship in MN 147. And according to DN and SN Comys, Rahula pre-deceased the Buddha and even Sariputta.
Dictionary of Pali Names wrote:Later, the Buddha, knowing that Rāhula's mind was ripe for final attainment, went with him alone to Andhavana, and preached to him the Cūla Rāhulovāda Sutta. At the end of the discourse, Rāhula became an arahant, together with one hundred thousand crores of listening devas. SA.iii.26 says these devas were among those who, in the time of Padumuttara Buddha, had heard Rāhula's wish to be born as the son of a future Buddha. They were subsequently born in various deva worlds, but on this day they all assembled at Andhavana in order to be present at the fulfilment of Rāhula’s wish. This scene was one of the incidents sculptured in the Relic Chamber of the Mahā Thūpa, as was also the ordination of Rāhula. Mhv.xxxi.81, 83.

...According to the Dīgha and Samyutta Commentaries (DA.ii.549; SA.iii.172), Rāhula predeceased the Buddha and even Sāriputta, and the place of his death is given as Tāvatimsa. For twelve years he never lay on a bed. (DA.iii.736).

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Re: This chinese agama version of Anapanasati matches my experiences

Post by DooDoot » Sun Aug 19, 2018 1:48 am

Woops... my bad.... thought it was Ananda... :embarassed:

:thanks: :focus:

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Re: This chinese agama version of Anapanasati matches my experiences

Post by thomaslaw » Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:45 am

I think for the Chinese agama version of Anapanasati, it will be better to read and follow SA 803 (= SN 54.1) (cf. pp. 225-227 in the book Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, Choong Mun-keat). This Chinese SA version has a very similar content of the Pali SN version. From the practice of mindfully knowing the bodily breathing in seated meditation, through calming of bodily and mental activities, to observing impermanence 'anicca' and cessation, is shared in common by the two versions. :buddha1:

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Re: This chinese agama version of Anapanasati matches my experiences

Post by budo » Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:08 pm

thomaslaw wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:45 am
I think for the Chinese agama version of Anapanasati, it will be better to read and follow SA 803 (= SN 54.1) (cf. pp. 225-227 in the book Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, Choong Mun-keat). This Chinese SA version has a very similar content of the Pali SN version. From the practice of mindfully knowing the bodily breathing in seated meditation, through calming of bodily and mental activities, to observing impermanence 'anicca' and cessation, is shared in common by the two versions. :buddha1:

Thanks, found it online https://lapislazulitexts.com/tripitaka/ ... -knowledge

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Re: This chinese agama version of Anapanasati matches my experiences

Post by thomaslaw » Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:23 am

budo wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:08 pm
thomaslaw wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:45 am
I think for the Chinese agama version of Anapanasati, it will be better to read and follow SA 803 (= SN 54.1) (cf. pp. 225-227 in the book Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, Choong Mun-keat). This Chinese SA version has a very similar content of the Pali SN version. From the practice of mindfully knowing the bodily breathing in seated meditation, through calming of bodily and mental activities, to observing impermanence 'anicca' and cessation, is shared in common by the two versions. :buddha1:

Thanks, found it online https://lapislazulitexts.com/tripitaka/ ... -knowledge
Thanks for the website, which also provides information about the important of SA:
https://lapislazulitexts.com/tripitaka/samyukta-agama
https://lapislazulitexts.com/articles/a ... the-agamas :buddha1:

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Re: This chinese agama version of Anapanasati matches my experiences

Post by budo » Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:08 am

thomaslaw wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:23 am
budo wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:08 pm
thomaslaw wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:45 am
I think for the Chinese agama version of Anapanasati, it will be better to read and follow SA 803 (= SN 54.1) (cf. pp. 225-227 in the book Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, Choong Mun-keat). This Chinese SA version has a very similar content of the Pali SN version. From the practice of mindfully knowing the bodily breathing in seated meditation, through calming of bodily and mental activities, to observing impermanence 'anicca' and cessation, is shared in common by the two versions. :buddha1:

Thanks, found it online https://lapislazulitexts.com/tripitaka/ ... -knowledge
Thanks for the website, which also provides information about the important of SA:
https://lapislazulitexts.com/tripitaka/samyukta-agama
https://lapislazulitexts.com/articles/a ... the-agamas :buddha1:
Good posts, they discuss jhana within anapanasati as well.

"In SA 814, further spiritual benefits are enumerated at great length. It seems that whatever lofty goals the bhikṣu is seeking, ānāpānasmṛti can accomplish them. For example, ānāpānasmṛti is also said to lead to the second, third, and fourth dhyāna (第二第三第四禪), the Four Brahmavihārās (慈悲喜捨), and the Four Formless Samādhis (空入處、識入處、無所有入處、非想非非想入處). A bhikṣu who wishes to fully cultivate any of these states is told to cultivate ānāpānasmṛti (是比丘當修安那般那念).

These benefits extend also to spiritual powers. SA 814 states that if a bhikṣu wishes to obtain innumerable types of spiritual powers (得無量種神通力), or ṛddhi, then he should cultivate ānāpānasmṛti (是比丘當修安那般那念). Added to this are the divine ear (天耳智), knowledge of others’ minds (他心智), knowledge of former lives (宿命智), knowledge of birth and death (生死智), and knowledge of the destruction of outflows (漏盡智). Altogether these form the six types of superknowledge.

As for the spiritual goals available to the aspiring practitioner, SA 814 gives three: srotaāpanna fruit (須陀洹果), the sakṛdāgāmin fruit (斯陀含果), and the anāgāmin fruit (阿那含果). Notably, the fourth fruit is not found anywhere in SA 814. However, SA 804 specifies that one who cultivates ānāpānasmṛti assiduously (安那般那念修習多修習者) becomes immovable (不動搖), and obtains the ultimate nectar of immortality (得甘露究竟甘露), and may obtain the two fruits (得二果), the four fruits (四果), and the seven fruits (七果). SA 810 more explicitly states that cultivating ānāpānasmṛti assiduously (安那般那念多修習已) causes the Four Bases of Mindfulness to be fulfilled (能令四念處滿足). When the Four Bases of Mindfulness are fulfilled (四念處滿足已), the Seven Factors of Bodhi are fulfilled (七覺分滿足). With the fulfillment of the Seven Factors of Bodhi, there is illumination and liberation (明解脫滿足). Thus, it would seem that from the point of view of the authors of the Ānāpānasmṛti Saṃyukta, ānāpānasmṛti can indeed lead to arhatship and fulfillment of the Seven Factors of Bodhi."

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Re: This chinese agama version of Anapanasati matches my experiences

Post by auto » Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:51 am

Yes. Worth.

It also answer questions whenever noting-vehicle needs jhana or not. It seem noting practice isn't vipassana what produce insights, insights need 4 jhana beforehand. On the other hand, there is momentary concentration before full access and have to notice it otherwise can't enter. Ah dunno..(i didn't realize that the red text were what you wrote :D)

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Re: This chinese agama version of Anapanasati matches my experiences

Post by DooDoot » Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:28 pm

budo wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:08 am
"In SA 814, further spiritual benefits are enumerated at great length. It seems that whatever lofty goals the bhikṣu is seeking, ānāpānasmṛti can accomplish them. For example, ānāpānasmṛti is also said to lead to the second, third, and fourth dhyāna (第二第三第四禪), the Four Brahmavihārās (慈悲喜捨), and the Four Formless Samādhis (空入處、識入處、無所有入處、非想非非想入處). A bhikṣu who wishes to fully cultivate any of these states is told to cultivate ānāpānasmṛti (是比丘當修安那般那念).
Possibly. However, what is written above does not necessary say the jhanas are included within anapanasati.

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Re: This chinese agama version of Anapanasati matches my experiences

Post by auto » Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:29 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:28 pm
budo wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:08 am
"In SA 814, further spiritual benefits are enumerated at great length. It seems that whatever lofty goals the bhikṣu is seeking, ānāpānasmṛti can accomplish them. For example, ānāpānasmṛti is also said to lead to the second, third, and fourth dhyāna (第二第三第四禪), the Four Brahmavihārās (慈悲喜捨), and the Four Formless Samādhis (空入處、識入處、無所有入處、非想非非想入處). A bhikṣu who wishes to fully cultivate any of these states is told to cultivate ānāpānasmṛti (是比丘當修安那般那念).
Possibly. However, what is written above does not necessary say the jhanas are included within anapanasati.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"But when a monk is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling, which things cease first: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, or mental fabrications?"
"When a monk is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visakha, verbal fabrications cease first, then bodily fabrications, then mental fabrications."[1]
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/AN/AN9_31.html
“When one has attained the first jhāna, the perception of sensuality has ceased. When one has attained the second jhāna, directed thoughts & evaluations [verbal fabrications] have ceased. When one has attained the third jhāna, rapture has ceased. When one has attained the fourth jhāna, in-and-out breaths [bodily fabrications] have ceased.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"But when a monk is emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling, which things arise first: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, or mental fabrications?"
"When a monk is emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visakha, mental fabrications arise first, then bodily fabrications, then verbal fabrications."
if to be mindful of breathing we forget it at somepoint, it is 4th jhana, thing is the jhana factors are not developed and discerned. So i guess also we don't see any possibilty to direct our minds to see and discern past lives, former abodes etc. Insight we get to impermanence, no-self and suffer are insights but weak.
So yes cultivating anapanasati we should get all powers and liberations eventually.

---
Over all, the cessation and arising seem go round and round, perhaps need certain amount to circle to get relevant upgrade. I know here is the deathless element to be noticed too and other things meanwhile, so its just not simple circling.

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Re: This chinese agama version of Anapanasati matches my experiences

Post by budo » Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:31 pm

auto wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:29 pm
DooDoot wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:28 pm
budo wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:08 am
"In SA 814, further spiritual benefits are enumerated at great length. It seems that whatever lofty goals the bhikṣu is seeking, ānāpānasmṛti can accomplish them. For example, ānāpānasmṛti is also said to lead to the second, third, and fourth dhyāna (第二第三第四禪), the Four Brahmavihārās (慈悲喜捨), and the Four Formless Samādhis (空入處、識入處、無所有入處、非想非非想入處). A bhikṣu who wishes to fully cultivate any of these states is told to cultivate ānāpānasmṛti (是比丘當修安那般那念).
Possibly. However, what is written above does not necessary say the jhanas are included within anapanasati.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"But when a monk is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling, which things cease first: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, or mental fabrications?"
"When a monk is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visakha, verbal fabrications cease first, then bodily fabrications, then mental fabrications."[1]
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/AN/AN9_31.html
“When one has attained the first jhāna, the perception of sensuality has ceased. When one has attained the second jhāna, directed thoughts & evaluations [verbal fabrications] have ceased. When one has attained the third jhāna, rapture has ceased. When one has attained the fourth jhāna, in-and-out breaths [bodily fabrications] have ceased.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"But when a monk is emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling, which things arise first: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, or mental fabrications?"
"When a monk is emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visakha, mental fabrications arise first, then bodily fabrications, then verbal fabrications."
if to be mindful of breathing we forget it at somepoint, it is 4th jhana, thing is the jhana factors are not developed and discerned. So i guess also we don't see any possibilty to direct our minds to see and discern past lives, former abodes etc. Insight we get to impermanence, no-self and suffer are insights but weak.
So yes cultivating anapanasati we should get all powers and liberations eventually.

---
Over all, the cessation and arising seem go round and round, perhaps need certain amount to circle to get relevant upgrade. I know here is the deathless element to be noticed too and other things meanwhile, so its just not simple circling.
Nice post! In the notes section of Culavedalla sutta it says

"Verbal fabrication grows still on attaining the second jhana; bodily fabrication grows still on attaining the fourth jhana; mental fabrication grows still on attaining the cessation of perception & feeling."

Therefore the end of the first tetrad of anapanasati:

" He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming bodily fabrication.'[3] He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming bodily fabrication.'"

Is the beginning of the form jhanas, which starts in 2nd tetrad.

The end of second tetrad:

" [8] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming mental fabrication.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming mental fabrication.'"

Is the beginning of the formless jhanas

The end of third tetrad:

"He trains himself, 'I will breathe in releasing the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out releasing the mind.'[5]"

Is the beginning of contemplation

The end of fourth tetrad, is attaining fruition

"[16] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on relinquishment.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on relinquishment.'"

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Re: This chinese agama version of Anapanasati matches my experiences

Post by DooDoot » Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:44 pm

What is the relevance of these quotes? The cessation of perception & feeling appears not mentioned in Anapanasati.
auto wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:29 pm
if to be mindful of breathing we forget it at somepoint, it is 4th jhana...
In the 16 stages of Anapanasati, per the suttas, knowing of breathing occurs in every stage.
budo wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:31 pm
Nice post! In the notes section of Culavedalla sutta it says

"Verbal fabrication grows still on attaining the second jhana; bodily fabrication grows still on attaining the fourth jhana; mental fabrication grows still on attaining the cessation of perception & feeling."

Therefore the end of the first tetrad of anapanasati:

" He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming bodily fabrication.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming bodily fabrication.'"

Is the beginning of the form jhanas, which starts in 2nd tetrad.
"Calming" bodily fabrication does not appear to be the same as "stilling" bodily fabrication. If "stilling" was the same as "calming" then the 4th step of Anapanasati would be the 4th jhana. If the 4th step of Anapanasati was the 4th jhana; now could rapture arise after the 4th jhana (when the suttas say rapture has ceased in the 3rd jhana)?
budo wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:31 pm
... mental fabrication grows still on attaining the cessation of perception & feeling."

The end of second tetrad:

" [8] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming mental fabrication.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming mental fabrication.'"

Is the beginning of the formless jhanas
In the suttas, "cessation of perception & feeling" is not the beginning of the formless jhanas. In fact, according to the suttas, "cessation of perception & feeling" appears to not even be a "jhana" at all (because it appears to be cessation of conscious experience). In the suttas, "cessation of perception & feeling" happens after the formless jhanas.

auto
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Re: This chinese agama version of Anapanasati matches my experiences

Post by auto » Wed Aug 22, 2018 1:51 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:44 pm
What is the relevance of these quotes? The cessation of perception & feeling appears not mentioned in Anapanasati.
auto wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:29 pm
if to be mindful of breathing we forget it at somepoint, it is 4th jhana...
In the 16 stages of Anapanasati, per the suttas, knowing of breathing occurs in every stage.
breathing is a sankhara.
Saṅkhāra (Pali; Sanskrit saṃskāra) is a term figuring prominently in Buddhism. The word means 'that which has been put together' and 'that which puts together'.
If i ignore breath manually i come aware of 3 jhana, pain. Pain is pleasant if it is impermanent; i can start breath whenever i please.
Ignorance is requisite condition for sankaras. We breath because it tries to show something, it brings together.

So there is a logic what results: Calming breath is equal to cessation. There is discernment to be made, when you calm breath there will surface or get stronger jhana factors.

at point 8 its calming of mental fabrication. And at 9 we discern mind by sensing it. Perhaps you can sense it and can train points 11 and 12.

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