About paññatti 'concept'

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
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DooDoot
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Re: About paññatti 'concept'

Post by DooDoot » Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:31 am

thomaslaw wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:33 pm
Seeing and knowing 'anicca, dukkha, anatta' in the SN suttas, for e.g., is indicated as yathaabhuuta.m 'things as they really are' (dhammas), not as paramattha 'ultimate reality' (dhammas).
When the Anapanasati Sutta refers to seeing Dhamma (steps 13 to 16), it refers to:

13. Impermanence (unsatisfactoriness & not-self)

14. Viraga (dispassion)

15. Nirodha (extinguishment of defilements - Nibbana)

16. Relinquishing (all selfing)

These are not mere "things". These are Higher Truth.
thomaslaw wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:44 am
khandhas, ... rittaka 'without reality' (dhammas).
The above does not appear to be the meaning of "ritta" and "rittaka". The idea of "reality" appears too vague above. "Ritta" generically means "devoid", such as in:
Rid of sensual pleasures, expecting nothing,

Kāmehi ritto apurakkharāno,

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.3/en/sujato
In the Phena Sutta, "ritta" is used to describe how the five aggregates are devoid of any substance, meaning & intrinsic worth. That the five aggregates are devoid of substance is their "reality" therefore I think using the term "without reality" is too vague and confusing.
thomaslaw wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:05 am
It is empty (void) of both, existence and non-existence, which are based on self-attachment.
The above, which sounds like "sunnata", appears to be another generalisation. I would suggest to try to be more accurate or specific with these Pali terms. I doubt "rittaka" is the exactly the same as "sunnata".

thomaslaw
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Location: Australia

Re: About paññatti 'concept'

Post by thomaslaw » Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:25 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:31 am
thomaslaw wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:33 pm
Seeing and knowing 'anicca, dukkha, anatta' in the SN suttas, for e.g., is indicated as yathaabhuuta.m 'things as they really are' (dhammas), not as paramattha 'ultimate reality' (dhammas).
When the Anapanasati Sutta refers to seeing Dhamma (steps 13 to 16), it refers to:

13. Impermanence (unsatisfactoriness & not-self)

14. Viraga (dispassion)

15. Nirodha (extinguishment of defilements - Nibbana)

16. Relinquishing (all selfing)

These are not mere "things". These are Higher Truth.
thomaslaw wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:44 am
khandhas, ... rittaka 'without reality' (dhammas).
The above does not appear to be the meaning of "ritta" and "rittaka". The idea of "reality" appears too vague above. "Ritta" generically means "devoid", such as in:
Rid of sensual pleasures, expecting nothing,

Kāmehi ritto apurakkharāno,

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.3/en/sujato
In the Phena Sutta, "ritta" is used to describe how the five aggregates are devoid of any substance, meaning & intrinsic worth. That the five aggregates are devoid of substance is their "reality" therefore I think using the term "without reality" is too vague and confusing.
thomaslaw wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:05 am
It is empty (void) of both, existence and non-existence, which are based on self-attachment.
The above, which sounds like "sunnata", appears to be another generalisation. I would suggest to try to be more accurate or specific with these Pali terms. I doubt "rittaka" is the exactly the same as "sunnata".
The terms, rittaka and sunnata, are an adjective, indicated in SN 22.95, and SN 35.197. That simply means 'empty'. So, it is empty (void) of both, existence and non-existence, which are based on self-attachment, following the middle way teachings indicated in SN 12.15.

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DooDoot
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Re: About paññatti 'concept'

Post by DooDoot » Wed Nov 14, 2018 5:20 am

thomaslaw wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:25 am
The terms, rittaka and sunnata, are an adjective, indicated in SN 22.95, and SN 35.197. That simply means 'empty'. So, it is empty (void) of both, existence and non-existence, which are based on self-attachment, following the middle way teachings indicated in SN 12.15.
"Sunnata" appears used in a specific way in the suttas (and not related to the Mahayana obsession with SN 12.15):
"And what is the emptiness awareness-release? There is the case where a monk, having gone into the wilderness, to the root of a tree, or into an empty dwelling, considers this: 'This is empty of self or of anything pertaining to self.' This is called the emptiness awareness-release.

MN 43
Insofar as it is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self: Thus it is said, Ananda, that the world is empty.

SN 35.85
"Rittaka" appears not used in the special way above; even though both "ritta" and "sunna" have a generic & similar meaning.

thomaslaw
Posts: 203
Joined: Fri Apr 19, 2013 12:55 am
Location: Australia

Re: About paññatti 'concept'

Post by thomaslaw » Wed Nov 14, 2018 5:56 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 5:20 am
thomaslaw wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:25 am
The terms, rittaka and sunnata, are an adjective, indicated in SN 22.95, and SN 35.197. That simply means 'empty'. So, it is empty (void) of both, existence and non-existence, which are based on self-attachment, following the middle way teachings indicated in SN 12.15.
"Sunnata" appears used in a specific way in the suttas (and not related to the Mahayana obsession with SN 12.15):
"And what is the emptiness awareness-release? There is the case where a monk, having gone into the wilderness, to the root of a tree, or into an empty dwelling, considers this: 'This is empty of self or of anything pertaining to self.' This is called the emptiness awareness-release.

MN 43
Insofar as it is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self: Thus it is said, Ananda, that the world is empty.

SN 35.85
"Rittaka" appears not used in the special way above; even though both "ritta" and "sunna" have a generic & similar meaning.
It does not suggest the world is (or the sense spheres are) paramattha "ultimate reality". The world is empty, without reality, of a self.

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