Translating saññāmanasikārā

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
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DooDoot
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Re: Translating saññāmanasikārā

Post by DooDoot » Sun Jul 22, 2018 3:51 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 2:59 am
while i can't comment on the pali and even less the grammar
dvanda compound = two or more members instead of being connected with the participle 'ca' getting joined together and function as copulative compound. Examples nāmarūpaṃ (mentality-materiality); samaṇabrāhmaṇā (ascetics & brahmins)

tappurisa compound = cases where the first member depends on the second (dependent compounds). Example sīlasampanno (perfection of morality); bhikkusaṅgho (community of monks); dukkhasamudayo (arising of suffering); kālaṃkato (end of time)
rightviewftw wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 2:37 am
the statement suggested for translation also makes sense and would seem very reasonable and supported by Sutta thus;
What one perceives, one thinks about. What one thinks about, one objectifies. Based on what a person objectifies, the perceptions & categories of objectification assail him/her with regard to past, present, & future forms cognizable via the eye.
MN 18 is a very good example but this might be against the view of a dvanda compound and might support my considering of a tappurisa compound. Below translations of the compound papañcasaññāsaṅkhā:
Yatonidānaṃ, bhikkhu, purisaṃ papañcasaññāsaṅkhā samudācaranti

Mendicant, a person is beset by concepts of identity that emerge from the proliferation of perceptions. - Sujato

the origin of the number (saṅkhā) of perceptions and obsessions which assail a man - Horner

the source, perceptions and notions [born of] mental proliferation beset a man - Bodhi

the perceptions & categories of objectification assail him/her - Thanissaro

yaṃ vedeti taṃ sañjānāti, yaṃ sañjānāti taṃ vitakketi, yaṃ vitakketi taṃ papañceti

What you feel, you perceive. What you perceive, you think about. What you think about, you proliferate.

yaṃ papañceti tatonidānaṃ purisaṃ papañcasaññāsaṅkhā samudācaranti

What you proliferate about is the source from which a person is beset by concepts of identity that emerge from the proliferation of perceptions. (Sujato)

Based on what a person objectifies, the perceptions & categories of objectification assail him/her (Thanissaro)

what obsesses one is the origin of the number of perceptions and obsessions which assail a man (Horner)

With pananca as source, perceptions and notions [born of] mental proliferation beset a man - Bodhi
:shock:

Bhikkhu Bodhi's footnote says he questionably decided to treat "saññāsaṅkhā" as a dvanda compound thus perceptions and notions.

But Bhikkhu Sujato, has appeared to treat papañcasaññā as a tappurisa compound (although in the reverse order as usually treated) thus proliferation of perceptions; even though in SN 40.1 Sujato treated saññāmanasikārā as a dvanda compound.

I prefer Horner's literal translation. :smile:

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DooDoot
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Re: Translating saññāmanasikārā

Post by DooDoot » Sun Jul 22, 2018 4:51 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 3:51 am
I prefer Horner's literal translation.....
I prefer Horner's literal translation of MN 18; which treats papañca-saññā-saṅkhā as a tappurisa compound, namely, "number (saṅkhā) of perceptions (saññā) and obsessions (papañca)" [or "numerous perceptions and obsessions"] but treats the papañca-saññā part as a dvanda compound. :smile:'

I might translate:
yaṃ papañceti tatonidānaṃ purisaṃ papañcasaññāsaṅkhā samudācaranti

Papanca is the source of a man being assailed by numerous proliferations of perceptions...

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pitakele
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Re: Translating saññāmanasikārā

Post by pitakele » Sun Jul 22, 2018 5:42 am

Sorry, fellow DW members, I can't contribute too much at present as I am 'beset by diarrhea and weakness associated with Asian street food' (not too bad - should be okay later today).

Some points

Samudācaranti is a verb which may be translated 'such and such assails' or 'assailed by such and such'.

Before my first post, I looked into the possibility of saññamanasikārā being a tappurisa compound, but this did not make sense grammtically to me. Thus, I accept Ven. Sujato & Bodhi's translations of it as a dvanda compound. Of course, their translations differ according to use of plural or singular nouns.

Papañcasaññāsankhā is an example of a missaka or complex compound - mental proliferations and perceptions, many/numerous - copulative + adjectival

Personally, I don't think 'attention' is the most suitable translation of manasikāra, 'making in the mind', so am not stuck on it needing to relate to perception/s. For me, more useful translations would be words like 'consideration-deliberation-cogitation'. Thus 'perceptions and considerations accompanied by sensual pleasures beset me' works okay.

Whichever way this compound is translated, it needs to be meaningful throughout AN 9.41 where there are various qualifiers: vitakkasahagatā, upekkhāsahagatā, rūpasahagatā, ākāsānañcāyatanasahagatā, viññāṇañcāyatanasahagatā, ākiñcaññāyatanasahagatā, (nevasaññānāsaññāyatanasahagatā not mentioned)

Note: I am using a smartphone, which is slow going. By the time I have finished writing, new posts may have appeared in the thread. Also, resources such as various translations are not as easily accessible as when using a computer.
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DooDoot
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Re: Translating saññāmanasikārā

Post by DooDoot » Sun Jul 22, 2018 10:26 am

pitakele wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 5:42 am
Sorry, fellow DW members, I can't contribute too much at present ...
Thank you for your efforts and teachings Pitakele. :)

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pitakele
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Re: Translating saññāmanasikārā

Post by pitakele » Sun Jul 22, 2018 11:52 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 10:26 am
Thank you for your efforts and teachings Pitakele. :)
Thank you DooDoot - much appreciated 😊
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Kumara
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Re: Translating saññāmanasikārā

Post by Kumara » Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:53 am

pitakele wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 1:57 am
As I mentioned, I prefer to understand manasikāra literally as 'making in the mind'. I don't know what the best English translation is, maybe 'consideration'? I think the most common translation is 'attention', but this doesn't convey the meaning of manasikāra for me.
That's what I think too. "Attention" just seems to far away from the literal meaning of "manasikāra", while not having any strong contextual support in the Suttas. I think it would be better to lay down the various possible meanings of this word before we figure out the compound.

Anyway, for now I'm thinking "cognition". What do you think?
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rightviewftw
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Re: Translating saññāmanasikārā

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:36 pm

i think cognition is too close to consciousness as it also cognizes.
So manasikara effectively becomes vinnana if one translates it as cognition because both cognize.

I personally like consideration.

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Kumara
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Re: Translating saññāmanasikārā

Post by Kumara » Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:26 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:36 pm
i think cognition is too close to consciousness as it also cognizes.
So manasikara effectively becomes vinnana if one translates it as cognition because both cognize.

I personally like consideration.
I really get you. I actually tried "cognition" for "viññāṇa" earlier, as in eye-cognition, etc. Pretty good, I think. Much better than "consciousness" (which led to a silly confusion between the Dalai Lama and western scientists about how many consciousness humans have).

But now I'm trying these
vijānāti cognize
viññāṇa cognizance

As for "consideration", I'm thinking maybe it's too narrow in meaning for "manasikārā". I have it for "vicāra".

Take a look at the meanings of "cognition" in a modern dictionary. I think it's wide enough to include all sorts of "doing in the mind".

Btw, thanks to you all for the wonderful discussion.
I'm not just a monk. I'm a human being. — Sayadaw U Jotika

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rightviewftw
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Re: Translating saññāmanasikārā

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:45 pm

How about using a verb?
"attending to wisely/unwisely"
"handling appropriately/inappropriately"
"dealing with wisely/unwisely"
"reacting to wisely/unwisely"

cognition also overlaps with thinking as a sense impression because it thinks, so we get confusing passages ;
"Then, Bāhiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized.
(Viññāte viññātamattaṃ bhavissati...)
if one does not look up Pali it can go either way here ie

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Kumara
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ālokasaññaṃ manasikareyyāsi (Re: Translating saññāmanasikārā)

Post by Kumara » Thu Jul 26, 2018 6:32 am

This might help us along:
ālokasaññaṃ manasikareyyāsi (AN7.61)

Literally, it's "You should make in the mind the perception of light."

In any case, it suggests that saññāmanasikārā isn't a dvanda.
I'm not just a monk. I'm a human being. — Sayadaw U Jotika

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pitakele
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Re: ālokasaññaṃ manasikareyyāsi (Re: Translating saññāmanasikārā)

Post by pitakele » Thu Jul 26, 2018 7:13 am

Kumara wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 6:32 am
This might help us along:
ālokasaññaṃ manasikareyyāsi (AN7.61)

Whatever it means, it suggests that saññāmanasikārā isn't a dvanda.
You should attend/deliberate etc. on the perception of light.

Here, ālokasaññaṃ is a genitive determinant compound.
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Kumara
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Re: ālokasaññaṃ manasikareyyāsi (Re: Translating saññāmanasikārā)

Post by Kumara » Thu Jul 26, 2018 8:46 am

Kumara wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 6:32 am
This might help us along:
ālokasaññaṃ manasikareyyāsi (AN7.61)

Literally, it's "You should make in the mind the perception of light."

In any case, it suggests that saññāmanasikārā isn't a dvanda.
Meaning-wise, perhaps "You should conceptualise the perception of light."
I'm not just a monk. I'm a human being. — Sayadaw U Jotika

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rightviewftw
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Re: Translating saññāmanasikārā

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Jul 26, 2018 1:09 pm

perpahsa
Kumara wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 6:32 am
This might help us along:
ālokasaññaṃ manasikareyyāsi (AN7.61)

Literally, it's "You should make in the mind the perception of light."

In any case, it suggests that saññāmanasikārā isn't a dvanda.
which is closer in the meaning of the two;
"one should attend to the perception of light in the mind"
or
"the perception of light is ought to be fabricated in the mind"
?

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Kumara
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Re: Translating saññāmanasikārā

Post by Kumara » Fri Jul 27, 2018 3:00 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 1:09 pm
perpahsa
Kumara wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 6:32 am
This might help us along:
ālokasaññaṃ manasikareyyāsi (AN7.61)

Literally, it's "You should make in the mind the perception of light."

In any case, it suggests that saññāmanasikārā isn't a dvanda.
which is closer in the meaning of the two;
"one should attend to the perception of light in the mind"
or
"the perception of light is ought to be fabricated in the mind"
?
I would think the second.

The first don't make sense in English. We can attend to (i.e, "pay attention to" since we're thinking of "attention" here) something that's already there. In the context of the story, the perception isn't there yet, and the Buddha is asking Ven Moggallana to create it. Thus the second is closer to the meaning.
I'm not just a monk. I'm a human being. — Sayadaw U Jotika

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Kumara
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Re: Translating saññāmanasikārā

Post by Kumara » Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:06 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:45 pm
How about using a verb?
"attending to wisely/unwisely"
"handling appropriately/inappropriately"
"dealing with wisely/unwisely"
"reacting to wisely/unwisely"
It would be suitable when the Pali is the verb form: manasikaroti, to which VRI's dictionary provides "To mind, to attend, to pay attention to, to bear in mind, to think about, to ponder, to fix the mind on, to take to heart".
cognition also overlaps with thinking as a sense impression because it thinks
And that fits just nicely. It seems manasikārā is indeed a wide term.
I'm not just a monk. I'm a human being. — Sayadaw U Jotika

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