Are there two types of satipaṭṭhāna; where one type has jhana?

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
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rightviewftw
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Re: Are there two types of satipaṭṭhāna; where one type has jhana?

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:05 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:54 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:52 pm
i think they just overlap, what is felt is perceived.
No, it is unlikely they overlap, which is why there are 4 separate tetrads. The word "sankhara" is probably translated wrongly. The term "citta sankhara" refers to "feeling & perception" therefore each of the four stages in the 2nd tetrad are obviously about experiencing feelings (vedana).

"In-&-out breaths are bodily sankhara. Directed thought & evaluation are verbal sankhara. Perceptions & feelings are mind sankhara."

The word "citta" means "mind" rather than "mental".
You must keep in mind that mano/citta is the forerunner of all phenomena so the feelings are naturally going to be Mind made but they are a satipatthana of their own nevertheless.
<Ya.m ca kho eta.m bhikkhave vuccati citta.m iti pi mano iti pi
vi~n~na.m iti pi...

"But that which is called Citta and Mano and Vinnana arises as one thing
and ceases as another by day and night."
Samyutta 12:61
1. Manopubbaṅgamā dhammā manoseṭṭhā manomayā
Manasā ce paduṭṭhena bhāsati vā karoti vā
Tato naṃ dukkhamanveti cakkaṃ'va vahato padaṃ.
2. Manopubbaṅgamā dhammā manoseṭṭhā manomayā
Manasā ce pasannena bhāsati vā karoti vā
Tato naṃ sukhamanveti chāyā'va anapāyinī.
Image
Therefore "mind sankhara" are the last to cease in a one-by-one model
Last edited by rightviewftw on Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
He goes to Niraya, the one who asserts what didn't take place, as does the one who, having done, says, 'I didn't.' Both — low-acting people — there become equal: after death, in the world beyond.
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
How to Meditate: Mindfulness of Breathing
Factors of Enlightenment & Perceptions
How to Meditate: Basic Satipatthana
Parallel Dhammapada Reading

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rightviewftw
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Re: Are there two types of satipaṭṭhāna; where one type has jhana?

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:15 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:54 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:05 am
"[1] On whatever occasion a monk breathing in long discerns, 'I am breathing in long'; or breathing out long, discerns, 'I am breathing out long'; or breathing in short, discerns, 'I am breathing in short'; or breathing out short, discerns, 'I am breathing out short'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&... out sensitive to the entire body'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out calming bodily fabrication': On that occasion the monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. I tell you, monks, that this — the in-&-out breath — is classed as a body among bodies, which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.

Here it is explained that work in the first tetrad develops Kayanupassana
What is meant by the words highlighted in red? :shrug:
i can only guess, it is not clear to me.
DooDoot wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:03 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:05 am
Work in the second tetrad is associated with development of Vedananupassana. Fwiw the commentary associates this tetrad with full absorbtion in jhāna, but the experience of rapture, joy, and calm is also associated with the access to jhāna (upacāra-jhāna).
OK... so you appear to be saying there are two types of concentration that can give rise to two levels of feelings. But does this result in two types of satipaṭṭhāna? :shrug:
that is a quote of the commentary. I don't think think there are two types of Satipatthana, i am not sure why anybody would think that. Concentration is a faculty and there is also just one type of this faculty but it has levels of development.

Fwiw my preferred translation of Foundations of Mindfulness is something like "Main areas for the Establishment of Sati"
He goes to Niraya, the one who asserts what didn't take place, as does the one who, having done, says, 'I didn't.' Both — low-acting people — there become equal: after death, in the world beyond.
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
How to Meditate: Mindfulness of Breathing
Factors of Enlightenment & Perceptions
How to Meditate: Basic Satipatthana
Parallel Dhammapada Reading

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DooDoot
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Re: Are there two types of satipaṭṭhāna; where one type has jhana?

Post by DooDoot » Sun Jul 15, 2018 12:56 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:15 pm
I tell you, monks, that this — the in-&-out breath — is classed as a body among bodies.... i can only guess, it is not clear to me.
This verse appears to unambiguously say there is more than one 'kaya'. In Pali, stage 3 is ‘sabbakāyapaṭisaṃvedī assasissāmī’ti sikkhati'. "Sabba" generally means "all". "Sabbakaya" therefore might mean "all (the different) kaya" instead of the "entire (singular) body". Since the in-&-out breath is classed as a kaya among kaya, in my meditation experience, sabbakāyapaṭisaṃvedī means experiencing how the quality of the breathing effects the other kaya (mental and physical kaya).
rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:05 am
I don't think think there are two types of Satipatthana, i am not sure why anybody would think that... Fwiw my preferred translation of Foundations of Mindfulness is something like "Main areas for the Establishment of Sati"
We agree, above. :woohoo: Since the suttas appear to say Satipatthana is being mindfulness, clear-comprehending & ardent to abandon covetousness & distress when experiencing/observing the four main areas, I imagine the practise of Satipatthana does not change regardless of the level concentration and jhana.

:twothumbsup:

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Re: Are there two types of satipaṭṭhāna; where one type has jhana?

Post by rightviewftw » Sun Jul 15, 2018 5:35 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 12:56 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:15 pm
I tell you, monks, that this — the in-&-out breath — is classed as a body among bodies.... i can only guess, it is not clear to me.
This verse appears to unambiguously say there is more than one 'kaya'. In Pali, stage 3 is ‘sabbakāyapaṭisaṃvedī assasissāmī’ti sikkhati'. "Sabba" generally means "all". "Sabbakaya" therefore might mean "all (the different) kaya" instead of the "entire (singular) body".
i guess that that the body of breath is a body in the body and is of the body. I think you are probably right here, i wonder how sensitive to the entirety of a body would be said in pali.
He goes to Niraya, the one who asserts what didn't take place, as does the one who, having done, says, 'I didn't.' Both — low-acting people — there become equal: after death, in the world beyond.
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
How to Meditate: Mindfulness of Breathing
Factors of Enlightenment & Perceptions
How to Meditate: Basic Satipatthana
Parallel Dhammapada Reading

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DooDoot
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Re: Are there two types of satipaṭṭhāna; where one type has jhana?

Post by DooDoot » Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:13 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 5:35 am
i guess that that the body of breath is a body in the body and is of the body. I think you are probably right here, i wonder how sensitive to the entirety of a body would be said in pali.
I am no expert in Pali but i heard it suggested once the term for "entire" or "whole" is "kevala" rather than "sabba" (although I am personally yet to do an examination of the suttas). "Kevala" is found in the following Dependent Origination phrase:
That is how this entire mass of suffering originates.
Evametassa kevalassa dukkhakkhandhassa samudayo hoti.

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Re: Are there two types of satipaṭṭhāna; where one type has jhana?

Post by _anicca_ » Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:14 am

All meditation incorporates satipatthana, but it depends on how you respond to the influx of phenomena that determines if you are developing insight or samadhi.

In traditional concentration meditation, you place the mind on one object and use effort to keep it there regardless of what feelings come it. This sole object is the focus of your meditation. The object is always the same

In the other type of satipatthana meditation (the New Burmese Method, in particular), you have a primary object (the breath for instance) and you stay with this until a secondary object comes up (a feeling, like restlessness or pain). You then switch your attention to that object and watch it with non-reactivity... Realizing anicca, dukkha, and anatta...

The former leads to jhana, and the second leads to upacara-samadhi (essentially, a lighter absorption).

The Satipatthana sutta says, "He knows when a painful feeling has arisen and passed away... he knows when a mind with passion has arisen and passed away... when there is desire..."

The way you react to these influxes in what leads to developing jhana or not. When one notices and then redirects their attention to the object, this will cause jhana. When you watch phenomena arise and pass away, this does not.
"A virtuous monk, Kotthita my friend, should attend in an appropriate way to the five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self."

:buddha1:

http://vipassanameditation.asia

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Re: Are there two types of satipaṭṭhāna; where one type has jhana?

Post by budo » Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:49 am

_anicca_ wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:14 am
All meditation incorporates satipatthana, but it depends on how you respond to the influx of phenomena that determines if you are developing insight or samadhi.

In traditional concentration meditation, you place the mind on one object and use effort to keep it there regardless of what feelings come it. This sole object is the focus of your meditation. The object is always the same

In the other type of satipatthana meditation (the New Burmese Method, in particular), you have a primary object (the breath for instance) and you stay with this until a secondary object comes up (a feeling, like restlessness or pain). You then switch your attention to that object and watch it with non-reactivity... Realizing anicca, dukkha, and anatta...

The former leads to jhana, and the second leads to upacara-samadhi (essentially, a lighter absorption).

The Satipatthana sutta says, "He knows when a painful feeling has arisen and passed away... he knows when a mind with passion has arisen and passed away... when there is desire..."

The way you react to these influxes in what leads to developing jhana or not. When one notices and then redirects their attention to the object, this will cause jhana. When you watch phenomena arise and pass away, this does not.
The object one tries to focus on is irrelevant, the whole point of the exercise is to see the 5 hinderances which are an extension of the fetters. The hinderances prevent you from focusing on an object, whether that object is a carrot on a stick or your breath.

The whole point is to show you how aversion and craving manipulate your body, feelings and mind. How when you stop letting the 5 hinderances control you then you can attain anything, like jhanas and nibbana.

There is no vipassana/samadhi dichotomy. The jhanas as the buddha taught it is based on mindfulness, you cannot have jhanas if you don't have mindfulness, the main quality of the third jhana is sampajanna which means clear knowing, especially of impermanence.

You cannot attain the deeper jhanas if you lack wisdom, discernment and insight. Just like a person who knows a city like the back of his hand can navigate it easily more than someone who has never been there, that person can discern the roads and has insight and wisdom.

The jhanas as the buddha taught it are about the 5 hinderances, 5 aggregates, and dependent origination. Specifically suppressing the 5 hindrances to have a better view of the 5 aggregates, and then using the aggregate of perception to undo the aggregate of intention, thus breaking the link of sankhara in dependent origination.

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Re: Are there two types of satipaṭṭhāna; where one type has jhana?

Post by LuisR » Sun Aug 05, 2018 4:41 pm

If the Satipatthana is a forgery why does any of this matter? :weep:

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Re: Are there two types of satipaṭṭhāna; where one type has jhana?

Post by Coëmgenu » Mon Aug 06, 2018 4:41 pm

LuisR wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 4:41 pm
If the Satipatthana is a forgery why does any of this matter? :weep:
It's not a forgery. That's stupid, and people shouldn't be saying that, because it is a boldfaced lie.

If it is a "forgery", than almost ALL of your Buddhavacana is fake.

Someone took bits of X and Y suttāni and inserted them into the Satipaṭṭhānasutta. It's not "fake".

Imagine if I took bits of SN 22.83 and put them into SN 22.84.

Oh no! This is a fake sutta. Better never read either text ever again.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः

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Re: Are there two types of satipaṭṭhāna; where one type has jhana?

Post by LuisR » Mon Aug 06, 2018 5:41 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 4:41 pm
LuisR wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 4:41 pm
If the Satipatthana is a forgery why does any of this matter? :weep:
It's not a forgery. That's stupid, and people shouldn't be saying that, because it is a boldfaced lie.

If it is a "forgery", than almost ALL of your Buddhavacana is fake.

Someone took bits of X and Y suttāni and inserted them into the Satipaṭṭhānasutta. It's not "fake".

Imagine if I took bits of SN 22.83 and put them into SN 22.84.

Oh no! This is a fake sutta. Better never read either text ever again.
Considering it is considered the most important sutta by many, it is rather disappointing it is not authentic.Specially considering so many traditions are based on this sutta. As far as Buddhavacana being fake, this whole thing does raise an important question. How much of this is real? If Buddhism prides itself on being a practical path that anyone can follow or be put to the test I think you should be more careful not to throw insults around.

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Re: Are there two types of satipaṭṭhāna; where one type has jhana?

Post by Coëmgenu » Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:05 pm

LuisR wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 5:41 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 4:41 pm
LuisR wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 4:41 pm
If the Satipatthana is a forgery why does any of this matter? :weep:
It's not a forgery. That's stupid, and people shouldn't be saying that, because it is a boldfaced lie.

If it is a "forgery", than almost ALL of your Buddhavacana is fake.

Someone took bits of X and Y suttāni and inserted them into the Satipaṭṭhānasutta. It's not "fake".

Imagine if I took bits of SN 22.83 and put them into SN 22.84.

Oh no! This is a fake sutta. Better never read either text ever again.
Considering it is considered the most important sutta by many, it is rather disappointing it is not authentic.Specially considering so many traditions are based on this sutta. As far as Buddhavacana being fake, this whole thing does raise an important question. How much of this is real? If Buddhism prides itself on being a practical path that anyone can follow or be put to the test I think you should be more careful not to throw insults around.
All of the material within it is Buddhavacana. It is neither inauthentic nor a forgery.

All of your Buddhavacana has been pieced together by Buddhist councils just as much as this piece. The Buddha himself didn't stitch together any of these documents.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः

LuisR
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Re: Are there two types of satipaṭṭhāna; where one type has jhana?

Post by LuisR » Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:08 pm

Sounds like Mahayana talk.

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Re: Are there two types of satipaṭṭhāna; where one type has jhana?

Post by Coëmgenu » Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:14 pm

Ooooh sounds like an ad hom

Why don't u actually address the argument?

The Platform Sutra is a forgery. This scripture is not.

If we called all composites "forgeries" most of your Buddhavacana is gone.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः

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Re: Are there two types of satipaṭṭhāna; where one type has jhana?

Post by mikenz66 » Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:37 pm

LuisR wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:08 pm
Sounds like Mahayana talk.
Not at all.

If we take a text-critical approach then comparisons between suttas and agamas from different schools indicated that there were variations in organisation of the nikayas, and within suttas. However, the meanings are quite consistent across the collections, so we can be reasonably confident that they reflect the understanding of the Dhamma reasonably soon after the passing away of the Buddha, and so, presumably, they are representative of the Dhamma that the Buddha taught. However, from this text-critical perspective, it would not be reasonable to say: "this is exactly what the Buddha spoke".

Of course there are other perspectives. One could take the view that the Theravada commentaries that indicate that the suttas are what was recited at the first council, that the Abhidhamma was taught to the Buddha's mother in Tavatimsa heaven and to Sariputta. And that the sutras and agamas of the other, schismatic, schools are unreliable. From that point of view the text-critical analysis is irrelevant.

Of course, some might argue that the latter view is similar to the view that the Mahayana sutras were spoken by the Buddha, and preserved by Nagas for centuries.

It is helpful to recognise that people with these different viewpoints are, in a sense, talking about "different Buddhas". See, for example: https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/bh ... ons/3466/5

For effective practice one needs confidence in the foundations of what one is practicing. How one gains this confidence depends on the individual, and I would be hesitant to recommend abandoning particular viewpoints just because they don't agree with some other type of analysis. For example, if one is a committed traditional Theravada practitioner, then worrying too much about text-critical analysis may not be helpful.

:heart:
Mike

LuisR
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Re: Are there two types of satipaṭṭhāna; where one type has jhana?

Post by LuisR » Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:49 pm

Are you not Mahayana? If not then sorry...

As for the suttas, ake it up with Ajahn Sujato.
Coëmgenu wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:14 pm
Ooooh sounds like an ad hom

Why don't u actually address the argument?

The Platform Sutra is a forgery. This scripture is not.

If we called all composites "forgeries" most of your Buddhavacana is gone.

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