How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
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cappuccino
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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by cappuccino » Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:30 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:29 pm
it is stated explicitly here

the arising and passing is impermanence

feelings arise, change, cease

perception arises, changes, ceases

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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by rightviewftw » Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:41 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:30 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:29 pm
it is stated explicitly here

the arising and passing is impermanence

feelings arise, change, cease

perception arises, changes, ceases
No man, there is a path leading to cessation of these things. Seeing that feelings change is normal, everybody knows and accepts this however experience of the non-arising of these phenomena is an entirely different and superhuman knowledge...
"Now, as long as I did not have direct knowledge of the fourfold round with regard to these five clinging-aggregates, I did not claim to have directly awakened to the unexcelled right self-awakening in this cosmos with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, in this generation with its brahmans & contemplatives, its royalty & common people. But when I did have direct knowledge of the fourfold round with regard to these five clinging-aggregates, then I did claim to have directly awakened to the unexcelled right self-awakening in this cosmos with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, in this generation with its brahmans & contemplatives, its royalty & common people.

"The fourfold round in what way? I had direct knowledge of form... of the origination of form... of the cessation of form... of the path of practice leading to the cessation of form.

"I had direct knowledge of feeling...

"I had direct knowledge of perception...

"I had direct knowledge of fabrications...

"I had direct knowledge of consciousness... of the origination of consciousness... of the cessation of consciousness... of the path of practice leading to the cessation of consciousness.
The Buddhas discover a Path to cessation of conditioned phenomena and attain the Highest Happiness, the unexcelled security. Relying on this attainment mind completely loses interest in the conditioned phenomena and becomes disenchanted with suffering. Without relying on this path destruction of cankers is impossible.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by cappuccino » Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:42 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:41 pm
Seeing that feelings change is normal, everybody knows and accepts this however

Seeing arising and passing is stream entry, not normal

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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by rightviewftw » Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:47 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:42 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:41 pm
Seeing that feelings change is normal, everybody knows and accepts this however

Seeing arising and passing is stream entry, not normal
well if you mean cessation of feeling by relying on the 8FNP, the attainment of highest happiness where there is no arising of feeling then you are correct.
And what, Ananda, is another pleasure more extreme & refined than that? There is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. This is another pleasure more extreme & refined than that. Now it's possible, Ananda, that some wanderers of other persuasions might say, 'Gotama the contemplative speaks of the cessation of perception & feeling and yet describes it as pleasure. What is this? How can this be?' When they say that, they are to be told, 'It's not the case, friends, that the Blessed One describes only pleasant feeling as included under pleasure. Wherever pleasure is found, in whatever terms, the Blessed One describes it as pleasure.'"
If you don't mean that by "arising and passing" then i am not sure what you mean.

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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by cappuccino » Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:53 pm

it's not necessary to drive a Ferrari

rather, the Ferrari is inconstant, this is the teaching

the Ferrari arises and ceases

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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by rightviewftw » Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:58 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:53 pm
it's not necessary to drive a Ferrari

rather, the Ferrari is inconstant, this is the teaching

the Ferrari arises and ceases
Well as i understand it you think that just by understanding that feelings are impermanent the mind can turn away from wanting feeling and lose interest in even celestial existence without ever knowing anything better than existence as in experiencing the non-arising of feeling?

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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by cappuccino » Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:00 pm

look at the Ferrari, very beautiful, very desirable

now turn around and the Ferrari has disappeared

how valuable is something that disappears so easily?

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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by rightviewftw » Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:10 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:00 pm
look at the Ferrari, very beautiful, very desirable

now turn around and the Ferrari has disappeared

go on with your life and never see the Ferrari again

how valuable is something that disappears so easily?

do you still desire something so impermanent
Yes i accept that we can intellectually understand that feeling is not all that desirable as is illustrated by your analogy.
However if you can not arrive at knowledge and vision of exactly what is feeling, what is form, what is consciousness, what is perception, what are the formations and how these things originate and cease, how they are the delineation of contact, there is simply no way for the mind to stop wanting these things because it neither understands them nor knows anything higher or can conceive of anything higher. The mind simply can't let go of wanting to experience conditioned existence before it sees it for what it is with correct wisdom, when that happens there comes about a cessation and mind comes to know the non-arising and discerns it as better than conditioned existence, relying on this knowledge the cankers are eventually destroyed.

Mind will keep wanting the lesser evil even if it knows that it is evil until it knows something higher and the escape from evil.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by cappuccino » Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:13 pm

feelings are inconstant, you feel good, very good, lasting only a moment

then you feel miserable, very miserable, lasting only a moment

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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by rightviewftw » Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:26 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:13 pm
feelings are inconstant, you feel good, very good, lasting only a moment

then you feel miserable, very miserable, lasting only a moment
It is so that i do not deny but this does not transcend feeling. Imagine this thought experiment;

A person dies and The King of Rounds of Rebirth asks you do you want more feelings?
The person wont be able to say No if feeling is all he knows, even if he knows that it is impermanent he has no choice but to say Yes simply because he knows nothing else, can't conceive of anything better.

To the question if he wants more existence, he could answer No only based on aversion to existence because existence is all he knows. However non-existence is impossible, so there will be further existence and based on that Aversion.

Only with clear knowledge and discernment of something better than feeling, better than existence is the mind able to say "Nah i've suffered enough" however this must be backed by knowledge and purified discernment of what is feeling and the beyond and based on reality, it must be something real and possible.

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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by cappuccino » Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:36 pm

you're thinking in terms of transcendence

Advaita & Zen, think in terms of transcendence

importantly, Buddha taught the facts of reality

what facts?

the three marks of existence

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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by rightviewftw » Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:41 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:36 pm
you're thinking in terms of transcendence

Advaita & Zen, think in terms of transcendence

importantly, Buddha taught the facts of reality

what facts? the three marks of existence
The Tathagata taught the facts of reality as you say but he also taught of a beyond

Sabbe saṅkhārā aniccā. - All formations are impermanent
Sabbe saṅkhārā dukkhā. - All formations are stress
‘Sabbe dhammā anattā’ - All Dhamma are not-self

Therefore All Sankharas are Dhamma but not All Dhammas are Sankhara. There is a Dhamma which is but does not share the characteristics of Dhukka & Anicca with the other Dhammas.

Dhammapada Chp 7;
The person who
Has gone beyond faith,
Knows the Unmade,
Has severed the link,
Destroyed the potential for rebirth,
And eliminated clinging
Is the ultimate person.
Nibbāna Sutta: Unbinding (3)

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Sāvatthī at Jeta's Grove, Anāthapiṇḍika's monastery. And on that occasion the Blessed One was instructing, urging, rousing, & encouraging the monks with Dhamma-talk concerned with unbinding. The monks — receptive, attentive, focusing their entire awareness, lending ear — listened to the Dhamma.

Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed:
There is, monks, an unborn[1] — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated. If there were not that unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, there would not be the case that escape from the born — become — made — fabricated would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, escape from the born — become — made — fabricated is discerned.[2]

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cappuccino
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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by cappuccino » Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:44 pm

“Bhikkhus, when the perception of impermanence is developed and cultivated, it eliminates all sensual lust, it eliminates all attachment to material form, it eliminates all ignorance, it uproots all conceit of ’I am’.

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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by rightviewftw » Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:48 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:44 pm
“Bhikkhus, when the perception of impermanence is developed and cultivated, it eliminates all sensual lust, it eliminates all attachment to material form, it eliminates all ignorance, it uproots all conceit of ’I am’.
62. Perceptions (2)

“Bhikkhus, these five perceptions, when developed and cultivated, are of great fruit and benefit, culminating in the deathless, having the deathless as their consummation. What five? The perception of impermanence, the perception of non-self, the perception of death, the perception of the repulsiveness of food, and the perception of non-delight in the entire world.
These five perceptions, when developed and cultivated, are of great fruit and benefit, culminating in the deathless, having the deathless as their consummation.”
When you develop it to the point of consumation you will know the Deathless which is Unbinding and will know the Unmade. Mere thinking about impermanence is not enough.
“The destruction of lust, the destruction of hatred, the destruction of delusion: this is called the Deathless. This Noble Eightfold Path is the path leading to the Deathless; that is, right view … right concentration.”
Attaining the Deathless is the goal not the development of the perception. You are confusing the means with the goal.
From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. And just this noble eightfold path is the path of practice leading to the cessation of feeling...
“The destruction of lust, the destruction of hatred, the destruction of delusion: this is called the Deathless. This Noble Eightfold Path is the path leading to the Deathless; that is, right view … right concentration.”

therefore attainment of the deathless is the attainment of cessation of contact and therefore the attainment of cessation of feeling and perception which marks the stream-entry;
Then Ven. Assaji gave this Dhamma exposition to Sariputta the Wanderer:

Whatever phenomena arise from cause:
their cause
& their cessation.
Such is the teaching of the Tathagata,
the Great Contemplative.

Then to Sariputta the wanderer, as he heard this Dhamma exposition, there arose the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye: "Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation."

Even if just this is the Dhamma,
you have penetrated
to the Sorrowless (asoka) State
unseen, overlooked (by us)
for many myriads of aeons.

Then Sariputta the wanderer went to Moggallana the wanderer. Moggallana the wanderer saw him coming from afar and, on seeing him, said, "Bright are your faculties, my friend; pure your complexion, and clear. Could it be that you have attained the Deathless?"

"Yes, my friend, I have attained the Deathless. "

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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by cappuccino » Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:28 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:48 pm
You are confusing the means with the goal.

you don't achieve the goal via achieving the goal

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