How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
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DooDoot
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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by DooDoot » Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:30 am

Pondera wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:28 am
Not happy with that? Try this on for size. See if it fits you.
I have not read it but I am not wrong but you were wrong before. How can what you post be right when you were wrong before? :shrug:
Pondera wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:28 am
Perceptions & feelings are mental; these are things tied up with the mind. That's why perceptions & feelings are mental fabrications."
The above is about perception & feeling rather than about the defilements (greed, hatred & delusion). The word "sankhara" above obviously has a different meaning than in "sankhara khandha".
Pondera wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:28 am
When a monk is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling, verbal fabrications cease first, then bodily fabrications, then mental fabrications."[1]
SN 41.6

Okay? Are you wrong yet?
So? How is this relevant? :thinking: Note: The translation appears to be wrong.

The Pali is "citta sankhara" ("mental fabricators"), which is "perception & feeling" (MN 44). :lol:

saññā ca vedanā ca cittasaṅkhāro

:focus:
"But what are bodily fabrications? What are verbal fabrications? What are mental fabrications?"

"In-&-out breaths are bodily fabrications. Directed thought & evaluation are verbal fabrications. Perceptions & feelings are mental fabricators (saññā ca vedanā ca cittasaṅkhāro).

MN 44
Why are perception & feeling called "mental fabricators" (instead of mental fabrications)? Below:
Bhikkhus, dependent on the eye and forms, eye-consciousness arises; the meeting of the three is contact; with contact as condition there arises a feeling felt as pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant. When one is touched by a pleasant feeling, if one delights in it, welcomes it, and remains holding to it, then the underlying tendency to lust lies within one. When one is touched by a painful feeling, if one sorrows, grieves and laments, weeps beating one’s breast and becomes distraught, then the underlying tendency to aversion lies within one. When one is touched by a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, if one does not understand as it actually is the origination, the disappearance, the gratification, the danger, and the escape in regard to that feeling, then the underlying tendency to ignorance lies within one. Bhikkhus, that one shall here and now make an end of suffering without abandoning the underlying tendency to lust for pleasant feeling, without abolishing the underlying tendency to aversion towards painful feeling, without extirpating the underlying tendency to ignorance in regard to neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, without abandoning ignorance and arousing true knowledge—this is impossible

MN 148
:focus:
Last edited by DooDoot on Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Pondera
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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by Pondera » Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:50 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:30 am
Pondera wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:28 am
Not happy with that? Try this on for size. See if it fits you.
I have not read it but I am not wrong but you were wrong before. How can what you post be right when you were wrong before? :shrug:
Aww. How kind of you. Ad hominem. I should report you but I won’t cause you’re just so cute!
Pondera wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:28 am
Perceptions & feelings are mental; these are things tied up with the mind. That's why perceptions & feelings are mental fabrications."
The above is about perception & feeling rather than about the defilements (greed, hatred & delusion). The word "sankhara" above obviously has a different meaning than in "sankhara khandha".


And you think the defilements are outside the range of perception and feeling? How convenient for you. But you’re wrong.
Pondera wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:28 am
When a monk is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling, verbal fabrications cease first, then bodily fabrications, then mental fabrications."[1]
SN 41.6

Okay? Are you wrong yet?
So? How is this relevant? :thinking: Note: The translation appears to be wrong.

The Pali is "citta sankhara" ("mental fabricators"), which is "perception & feeling" (MN 44). :lol:

saññā ca vedanā ca cittasaṅkhāro

:focus:
How is this relevant? Cessation of perception and feeling equals the end of mental fabrications - which include lust, hatred, and ignorance. Disenchantment is again the key word.
"But what are bodily fabrications? What are verbal fabrications? What are mental fabrications?"

"In-&-out breaths are bodily fabrications. Directed thought & evaluation are verbal fabrications. Perceptions & feelings are mental fabrications (saññā ca vedanā ca cittasaṅkhāro).

MN 44
[/quote]

It’s all leading to the same conclusion. Unbinding, Nibbana, the annihilation of the defilements - these are all the same as “cessation of perception and feeling”.

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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by DooDoot » Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:54 am

Pondera wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:50 am
And you think the defilements are outside the range of perception and feeling? How convenient for you. But you’re wrong.
Seems not relevant to the topic because a Buddha has perceptions & feelings (Iti 44) but does not have defilements.
Pondera wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:50 am
Cessation of perception and feeling equals the end of mental fabrications - which include lust, hatred, and ignorance.
No. Cessation of perception and feeling appears to be a state of unconsciousness and is not the Nibbana the Buddha found. The Buddha found a conscious Nibbana, as described in Iti 44.

Based on your views, sleep equals the end of mental fabrications. :mrgreen:
Pondera wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:50 am
It’s all leading to the same conclusion. Unbinding, Nibbana, the annihilation of the defilements - these are all the same as “cessation of perception and feeling”.
No; per above & below.
And what is the Unbinding property with fuel remaining? There is the case where a monk is an Arahant whose effluents have ended, who has reached fulfillment, finished the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, destroyed the fetter of becoming, and is released through right gnosis. His five sense faculties still remain and, owing to their being intact, he experiences the pleasing & the displeasing, and is sensitive to pleasure & pain. His ending of passion, aversion, & delusion is termed the Unbinding property with fuel remaining.

Iti 44

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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by Pondera » Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:13 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:54 am
Pondera wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:50 am
And you think the defilements are outside the range of perception and feeling? How convenient for you. But you’re wrong.
Seems not relevant to the topic because a Buddha has perceptions & feelings (Iti 44) but does not have defilements.
The Buddha is cooled with dispassion. And it is very relevant. Let me ask you straight up - if people do not lust after feelings and perceptions, then what do they lust over? The same question for hate and ignorance?
Pondera wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:50 am
Cessation of perception and feeling equals the end of mental fabrications - which include lust, hatred, and ignorance.
No. Cessation of perception and feeling appears to be a state of unconsciousness and is not the Nibbana the Buddha found. The Buddha found a conscious Nibbana, as described in Iti 44.
You are failing to understand what the definition of consciousness is. There is eye and there is form. Where the two meet there is consciousness. If the two don’t meet is that “unconsciounesss”? Obviously not.
Based on your views, sleep equals the end of mental fabrications. :mrgreen:
Incorrect. I believe Nibbana to be a mindful experience. There is no trace of consciousness - however because you are not a native English speaker, you find it easy to put “un” before the word and call it “sleep”. Can you put “un” in front of the Pali word and call it sleep?
Pondera wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:50 am
It’s all leading to the same conclusion. Unbinding, Nibbana, the annihilation of the defilements - these are all the same as “cessation of perception and feeling”.
No; per above & below.
Let’s see...
And what is the Unbinding property with fuel remaining? There is the case where a monk is an Arahant whose effluents have ended, who has reached fulfillment, finished the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, destroyed the fetter of becoming, and is released through right gnosis. His five sense faculties still remain and, owing to their being intact, he experiences the pleasing & the displeasing, and is sensitive to pleasure & pain. His ending of passion, aversion, & delusion is termed the Unbinding property with fuel remaining.

Iti 44
[/quote]

Yeah. Karmic life force remaining. So what? In a temporary state he can be completely free of the defilements. An arahant is not always in Nibbana. Again if not for perceptions and feelings - then what do people lust for? And when that lust is gone, how is it possible to destroy it? How do YOU annihilate lust, etc.

And your theory on consciousness is an error in understanding. You’re taking an English idiom and you are wrongly applying it to the Buddha’s definition of conscio. Ie. the interlocutor between sense faculties and sense media.

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DooDoot
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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by DooDoot » Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:41 am

Pondera wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:13 am
The Buddha is cooled with dispassion. And it is very relevant.
Yes. I mentioned dispassion in the OP. But a Buddha has perceptions & feelings (Iti 44).
Pondera wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:13 am
Let me ask you straight up - if people do not lust after feelings and perceptions, then what do they lust over? The same question for hate and ignorance?
Ordinary people certainly lust after feelings and perceptions. But a Buddha has perceptions & feelings (Iti 44) without any lust arising.
Pondera wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:13 am
You are failing to understand what the definition of consciousness is. There is eye and there is form. Where the two meet there is consciousness. If the two don’t meet is that “unconsciounesss”? Obviously not.
Mentally, there is mind (mano) and there is mind objects (dhamme; such as perception & feeling). Where the two meet there is mind consciousness (mano vinnana). If the two don’t meet is that “unconsciounesss”? Obviously so. :) I already posted from MN 38 & SN 22.53 to affirm this. Please read the sutta quotes in the thread rather than post your own ideas. This thread is a sutta discussion.
Pondera wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:13 am
Incorrect. I believe Nibbana to be a mindful experience. There is no trace of consciousness - however because you are not a native English speaker
This above in incomprehensible.
Pondera wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:13 am
Yeah. Karmic life force remaining. So what?
An arahant has destroyed kamma (AN 6.63). The fuel remaining appears to be perception & feeling (refer to metaphor of oil & wick in MN 140).
Pondera wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:13 am
In a temporary state he can be completely free of the defilements. An arahant is not always in Nibbana.
Sorry. An arahant appears always in Nibbana; per the suttas.

Note: Please do not infer Pondera is an Arahant With Defilements; similar to Stephen Batchelor who claims the Buddha did not permanently end the defilements.
Pondera wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:13 am
Again if not for perceptions and feelings - then what do people lust for? And when that lust is gone, how is it possible to destroy it? How do YOU annihilate lust, etc.
Sorry. But this is backwards or mixed up. Lust arises AFTER perception & feeling therefore the destruction of lust does not cause the destruction of perception & feeling. The cause of LUST is actually IGNORANCE. Feeling with ignorance causes lust but feeling without ignorance does not cause lust.
Pondera wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:13 am
And your theory on consciousness is an error in understanding.
No. This is about the 4th time I have been wrongly accused of error.
Pondera wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:13 am
You’re taking an English idiom and you are wrongly applying it to the Buddha’s definition of conscio. Ie. the interlocutor between sense faculties and sense media.
No. MN 38 seems to clearly explain when there is no sense organ & no sense object there can be no consciousness. I already quoted this. Please kindly read the suttas posted. :thanks:

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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by Pondera » Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:04 am

I will address your concerns tomorrow. You’re wrong on several fronts. You’re an irritating person to talk with also. So excuse me if I don’t have a lot invested in that his conversation.

You’re understanding of “unconscious” is flawed. But we’ll discuss this at another time :) An arahant is not always in Nibbana. I’ll give you sutta support for that at a later time :) Your understanding of the defilements needs work. I’ll give you a quote tomorrow - but you’re looking at a hefty bill :) You’re continually accused of misunderstanding consciousness and its relatiOn to cessation of perception and feeling because you’re wrong. f*** the world has demonstrated that with ample sutta support. :)

I will sleep now.

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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by DooDoot » Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:03 am

Pondera wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:04 am
I will address your concerns tomorrow. You’re wrong on several fronts.
I think I was not wrong once but it was shown your posts were wrong several times. There is no need to address anything.
Pondera wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:04 am
You’re an irritating person to talk with also. So excuse me if I don’t have a lot invested in that his conversation.
No. Your mind is irritated. :tantrum: Please speak the truth according to Buddhism. There is no "person". There are only sense objects and it is the mind that produces "personhood" and "irritation" from those sense objects.
Pondera wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:04 am
You’re understanding of “unconscious” is flawed. But we’ll discuss this at another time
There is no need to discuss anything. In DN 16, when the Buddha entered the cessation of perception & feeling, Ananda declared the Buddha has passed away. But Anurudha, with psychic powers, said no. Cessation of perception & feeling is compared to a corpse.
Pondera wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:04 am
An arahant is not always in Nibbana. I’ll give you sutta support for that at a later time
There is no sutta to support the above heretical view.
The Arahant

31. "And how, monks, is that monk one who has removed the cross-bar? Herein the monk has abandoned ignorance, has cut it off at the root, removed it from its soil like a palmyra tree, brought it to utter extinction, incapable of arising again. Thus has he removed the cross-bar.

32. "And how, monks, is that monk one who has filled the moat? Herein the monk has abandoned the round of [ego] births, leading to renewed becoming; he has cut it off at the root, removed it from its soil like a palmyra tree, brought it to utter extinction, incapable of arising again.

33. "And how has he broken the pillar? He has abandoned craving, has cut it off at the root, removed it from its soil like a palmyra tree, brought it to utter extinction, incapable of arising again.

34. "And how has he unbolted (his mind)? He has abandoned the five lower fetters, has cut them off at the root, removed them from their soil like a palmyra tree, brought them to utter extinction, incapable of arising again.

35. "And how is the monk a Noble One who has taken down the flag, put down the burden, become unfettered? He has abandoned the conceit of self, has cut it off at the root, removed it from is soil like a palmyra tree, brought it to utter extinction, incapable of arising again. Thus is the monk a Noble One who has taken down the flag, put down the burden, become unfettered.

MN 22 :bow:
:alien:
Pondera wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:04 am
Your understanding of the defilements needs work. I’ll give you a quote tomorrow - but you’re looking at a hefty bill
No need to quote anything.
Pondera wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:04 am
You’re continually accused of misunderstanding consciousness and its relatiOn to cessation of perception and feeling because you’re wrong. f*** the world has demonstrated that with ample sutta support.
No.
Pondera wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:04 am
I will sleep now.
I sense the posts made were the product of sleep.
29. Heedful among the heedless, wide-awake among the sleepy, the wise man advances like a swift horse leaving behind a weak jade.

Dhammapada
Best wishes. :smile:

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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by Dinsdale » Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:12 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:34 pm
3. Therefore, when non-Aryians read AN 9.34, because a non-Aryian has not tasted the freedom of Nibbana, they might believe Nibbana is the Cessation of Perception & Feeling (which is a state of unconsciousness; compared to a corpse in MN 43 ).
MN43 also describes a monk emerging from the attainment of the cessation of perception and feeling, which seems to support the view that this is a ( temporary ) meditative state, and not Nibbana.

"It's because vitality-fabrications are one thing and feeling-states another that the emergence of a monk from the attainment of the cessation of perception & feeling is discerned."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Furthermore the Khandha Sutta suggests that the clinging aggregates are a subset of aggregates generally, in other words it is just clinging aggregates which cease when craving ceases ( Nibbana ), not aggregates generally.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Though the Arrow Sutta seems to describe the cessation of mental feeling:

"In the same way, when touched with a feeling of pain, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. He feels one pain: physical, but not mental."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by rightviewftw » Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:27 am

It seem OP misunderstands that he has the burden of proof and it is his interpretation that is scrutinized here, he has ignored most of the evidence and has not proved that contrary to Commentary Vinnana Anidassanam does not refer to the Unmade nor has he explained how Cessation of Perception & Feeling is realized, has not explained the Supramundane absorbtion attainment nor answered what happens to the Tathagata after Death or how cessation Nama&Rupa occur.

It is more and more clear to me that there is a fundamental misunderstanding at work on part of OP;
DooDoot wrote: If the Buddha did not have five aggregates, how did the Buddha walk, talk, eat, shit, see, hear and think? :shrug:
Here he clearly postulates that The Buddha has the Aggregates, postulating an entity apart from Aggregates which is of course wrong view because existence of a being cannot be pinned down neither apart nor in the aggregates. Has the aggregates or doesn't have the aggregates does not apply.

Foolish man, where did you ever see the Aggregates to be taught in this way by the Tathagata?

Doot regards The Tathagata as that which is with form, with feeling, with perception, with fabrications, with consciousness and something apart from form, apart from feeling, apart from perception, apart from fabrications, apart from consciousness. If not then i would surely like to question him on the matter.
Refuted here;
"What do you think, Anuradha: Do you regard form as the Tathagata?"

"No, lord."

"Do you regard feeling as the Tathagata?"

"No, lord."

"Do you regard perception as the Tathagata?"

"No, lord."

"Do you regard fabrications as the Tathagata?"

"No, lord."

"Do you regard consciousness as the Tathagata?"

"No, lord."

"What do you think, Anuradha: Do you regard the Tathagata as being in form?... Elsewhere than form?... In feeling?... Elsewhere than feeling?... In perception?... Elsewhere than perception?... In fabrications?... Elsewhere than fabrications?... In consciousness?... Elsewhere than consciousness?"

"No, lord."


"What do you think: Do you regard the Tathagata as form-feeling-perception-fabrications-consciousness?"

"No, lord."

"Do you regard the Tathagata as that which is without form, without feeling, without perception, without fabrications, without consciousness?"

"No, lord."

"And so, Anuradha — when you can't pin down the Tathagata as a truth or reality even in the present life — is it proper for you to declare, 'Friends, the Tathagata — the supreme man, the superlative man, attainer of the superlative attainment — being described, is described otherwise than with these four positions: The Tathagata exists after death, does not exist after death, both does & does not exist after death, neither exists nor does not exist after death'?"

"No, lord."

"Very good, Anuradha. Very good. Both formerly & now, it is only stress that I describe, and the cessation of stress."

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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by rightviewftw » Sun Jun 10, 2018 12:18 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:23 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:55 pm
Look;
Dukkhata Sutta: Suffering

"Monks, there are these three kinds of suffering.[1] What three? Suffering caused by pain,[2] suffering caused by the formations (or conditioned existence),[3] suffering due to change.[4]It is for the full comprehension, clear understanding, ending and abandonment of these three forms of suffering that the Noble Eightfold Path is to be cultivated[/color]..."
Sorry but this sutta does not literally say the "cessation of sankhara as conditioned phenomena", as you previously posted. For example, in the phrase: "sabbe sankhara anicca", the word sankhara refers to the five aggregates. The above quote does not refer to the five aggregates. Also, in the quote above, "sankhara" is not explicitly said to be "conditioned existence". The translator is merely guessing. You need to do better. :roll:

Since the quote above does not refer to craving, attachment & other defilements; sankhara above can only refer to craving, attachment & other defilements. I already posted this. The above quote is not different to what I posted and does not prove your wrong view that Nibbana is the cessation of feeling. :roll:
This Sutta does explicitly say that The 8FNP is a path to ending and abandonement of ALL suffering, ALL suffering includes all conditioned phenomena as is explicitly stated in the commentary;
Sankhaara-dukkhataa, the suffering produced by all "conditioned phenomena" (i.e., sankhaaras, in the most general sense
as well as being super obvious in light of verses like this;
203. Jighacchāparamā rogā, saṅkhāraparamā [saṅkārā paramā (bahūsu)] dukhā;
Etaṃ ñatvā yathābhūtaṃ, nibbānaṃ paramaṃ sukhaṃ.

Hunger is the greatest disease. Aggregates are the greatest suffering. Knowing this as it really is, (the wise realize) Nibbāna, bliss supreme.
It seems you are in denial mode now.

your wrong view that Nibbana is the cessation of feeling

As i already explained there are several ways to talk about Unbinding, if one talks about it as the Nibbana element, the Untanglement of the Tangle then Feeling is abandoned at the breakup of the body. If one talks about Nibbana as attainment of Path and Fruit, then it is the cessation of Feeling in the here & now and realization of Pleasure where nothing is felt, the supramundane (lokuttara) attainment of seeing the Noble Truths. Either way it is not a wrong statement because even the Final unbinding leads to no more arising of vedana-khanda.

it seems like one could make a case for it being wrong to refer to attainment of path and fruit as well as the attainment of cessation of perception & feeling as Nibbana but that is not really the point of this discussion and i do not think it wrong because a Sotapanna can be said to see the Noble Truths and the 3rd Truth is the Truth of Cessation, so he realizes cessation of suffering (ie feeling) and knows the Unmade.
“But when one sees with correct wisdom
The truths of the noble ones—
Suffering and its origin,
The overcoming of suffering,
And the Noble Eightfold Path
That leads to suffering’s appeasement—
Then that person, having wandered on
For seven more times at most,
Makes an end to suffering
By destroying all the fetters.”
(SN. ii. 185-6)
Therefore i do not think it is wrong personally.

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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by rightviewftw » Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:52 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 12:18 pm
it seems like one could make a case for it being wrong to refer to attainment of path and fruit as well as the attainment of cessation of perception & feeling as Nibbana but that is not really the point of this discussion and i do not think it wrong because a Sotapanna can be said to see the Noble Truths and the 3rd Truth is the Truth of Cessation, so he realizes cessation of suffering (ie feeling) and knows the Unmade.
I am still somewhat perplexed about this and it seems like the confusion stems from equating the terms cessation with unbinding, nirodha with nibbana. Having thought more about it seems like in general the attainment of fruition is an attainment of cessation and is the supramundane meditative attainment whilst the attainment of Nibbana refers to the state of an Arahant. If anything the Sutta discussed in OP suggests that the two terms can be used interchangeably and it is natural to assume that when Sariputta says;
"This Unbinding is pleasant, friends. This Unbinding is pleasant."

When this was said, Ven. Udayin said to Ven. Sariputta, "But what is the pleasure here, my friend, where there is nothing felt?"

"Just that is the pleasure here, my friend: where there is nothing felt.
and the Tathagata says;
"And what, Ananda, is another pleasure more extreme & refined than that? There is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. This is another pleasure more extreme & refined than that. Now it's possible, Ananda, that some wanderers of other persuasions might say, 'Gotama the contemplative speaks of the cessation of perception & feeling and yet describes it as pleasure. What is this? How can this be?' When they say that, they are to be told, 'It's not the case, friends, that the Blessed One describes only pleasant feeling as included under pleasure. Wherever pleasure is found, in whatever terms, the Blessed One describes it as pleasure.'"
they are talking about the same thing and that the terms can be used interchangeably.

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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by rightviewftw » Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:52 pm

Kamabhu Sutta: With Kamabhu (2)(On the Cessation of Perception & Feeling and it's commentary;
Kamabhu Sutta: With Kamabhu (2)
(On the Cessation of Perception & Feeling)
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
...
"When a monk has emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling, three contacts make contact: contact with emptiness, contact with the signless, & contact with the undirected."[3]

"Very good, venerable sir." And, delighting in and approving of Ven. Kamabhu's answer, Citta asked him a further question: "When a monk has emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling, to what does his mind lean, to what does it tend, to what does it incline?"

"When a monk has emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling, his mind leans to seclusion, tends to seclusion, inclines to seclusion."[4]

"Very good, venerable sir." And, delighting in and approving of Ven. Kamabhu's answer, Citta asked him a further question: "How many mental qualities are of great help in the attainment of the cessation of perception & feeling?"

"Actually, householder, you have asked last what should have been asked first. Nevertheless, I will answer you. Two qualities are of great help in the attainment of the cessation of perception & feeling: tranquillity & insight."[5]
Notes

1.
According to SN 36.11, verbal fabrication grows still on attaining the second jhana; bodily fabrication grows still on attaining the fourth jhana; mental fabrication grows still on attaining the cessation of perception & feeling.
2.
This question and answer are not included in MN 44.
3.
Emptiness, the signless, & the undirected are names for a state of concentration that lies on the threshold of Unbinding. They differ only in how they are approached. According to the commentary, they color one's first apprehension of Unbinding: a meditator who has been focusing on the theme of inconstancy will first apprehend Unbinding as signless; one who has been focusing on the theme of stress will first apprehend it as undirected; one who has been focusing on the theme of not-self will first apprehend it as emptiness.
4.
According to the commentary, "seclusion" here stands for Unbinding. On emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling, and having had contact with emptiness/the signless/the undirected, the mind inclines naturally to a direct experience of Unbinding.
5.
This question and answer are also not included in MN 44.
So when OP says ;
DooDoot wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 9:57 pm
Nibbana is not:

1. Cessation of perception & feeling

That's it. The wrong view that AN 9.34 says Nibbana is the cessation of feeling is a wrong view. :pig: :strawman: :jedi:
It is not clear what he means and probably puts him in contradiction with the commentators above because they say that the attainment of cessation of perception&feeling lies on the treshold of Unbinding

Furthermore;
DooDoot wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 9:57 pm
The unconditioned element is defined as the absence of defilement (rather than the absence of feeling).
And what is the unconditioned?

The ending of greed, hate, and delusion.

SN 43.12
What is the deathless?

The ending of greed, hate, and delusion.

SN 45.7
Doot's interpretation does not make sense because these passages do not explicitly state abscence of defilement, they say ending of greed, hate, and delusion rather than abscence of it. This is a crucial difference and is evident from the below passage which show that Deathless is attained by non-arahants which would be impossible with Doot's interpretation;
Then Ven. Assaji gave this Dhamma exposition to Sariputta the Wanderer:

Whatever phenomena arise from cause:
their cause
& their cessation.
Such is the teaching of the Tathagata,
the Great Contemplative.

Then to Sariputta the wanderer, as he heard this Dhamma exposition, there arose the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye: "Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation."

Even if just this is the Dhamma,
you have penetrated
to the Sorrowless (asoka) State
unseen, overlooked (by us)
for many myriads of aeons.

Then Sariputta the wanderer went to Moggallana the wanderer. Moggallana the wanderer saw him coming from afar and, on seeing him, said, "Bright are your faculties, my friend; pure your complexion, and clear. Could it be that you have attained the Deathless?"

"Yes, my friend, I have attained the Deathless. "
and here is a passage equating The Deathless to Unbinding;
"And what is the noble search? There is the case where a person, himself being subject to birth, seeing the drawbacks of birth, seeks the unborn, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Unbinding. Himself being subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, seeing the drawbacks of aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, seeks the aging-less, illness-less, deathless, sorrow-less, undefiled, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Unbinding. This is the noble search.
“Whatever exists therein of material form, feeling, perception, formations, and consciousness, he sees those states as impermanent, as suffering, as a disease, as a tumour, as a barb, as a calamity, as an affliction, as alien, as disintegrating, as void, as not self. He turns his mind away from those states [436] and directs it towards the deathless element thus: ‘This is the peaceful, this is the sublime, that is, the stilling of all formations, the relinquishing of all attachments, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbāna.’

rightviewftw
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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by rightviewftw » Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:57 pm

another very important discourse pertaining to the knowledge of destruction of the taints, this discource is evidence for attainment of cessation of perception and feeling being cruicial to the attainment of Arahantship;
[At Saavatthii the Blessed One said:]

"Monks, I declare that the destruction of the cankers[2] comes for him who knows and sees, and not for him who does not know and does not see. By knowing what, by seeing what, does the destruction of the cankers come about? 'Such is material form, such is its arising, such is its passing away; such is feeling... such is perception... such are the mental formations... such is consciousness, such is its arising, such is its passing away': for him who knows this, for him who sees this, the destruction of the cankers comes about.

"Regarding this knowledge of destruction, I declare that there is a supporting condition without which it does not arise...[3] What is this supporting condition? Liberation... Liberation has a supporting condition...: Dispassion... Dispassion has a supporting condition...: Disenchantment... Disenchantment has a supporting condition...: Knowledge-and-vision-of-things-as-they-are...
"And what is feeling? These six classes of feeling — feeling born of eye-contact, feeling born of ear-contact, feeling born of nose-contact, feeling born of tongue-contact, feeling born of body-contact, feeling born of intellect-contact: this is called feeling. From the origination of contact comes the origination of feeling. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. And just this noble eightfold path is the path of practice leading to the cessation of feeling...

"And what is perception? These six classes of perception — perception of form, perception of sound, perception of smell, perception of taste, perception of tactile sensation, perception of ideas: this is called perception. From the origination of contact comes the origination of perception. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of perception. And just this noble eightfold path is the path of practice leading to the cessation of perception...
In other words without realizing the 4 Noble Truths the destruction of cankers is impossible. He who realizes the 4 Noble Truths experiences the cessation of perception and feeling knows the Deathless and the Unconditioned, for it is stated;
And what is the unconditioned?

The ending of greed, hate, and delusion.

SN 43.12

What is the deathless?

The ending of greed, hate, and delusion.

SN 45.7
So the knowledge of destruction of taints is knowledge of the Unconditioned & the Deathless.

Without the supramundane attainment of cessation of perception and feeling, the destruction of Delusion is impossible contrary to Doot's belief.

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cappuccino
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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by cappuccino » Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:25 pm

cessation of perception and feeling is unnecessary

it's frosting

rightviewftw
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Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by rightviewftw » Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:29 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:25 pm
cessation of perception and feeling is completely unnecessary

it's frosting
it is stated explicitly here;
"Monks, I declare that the destruction of the cankers comes for him who knows and sees, and not for him who does not know and does not see. By knowing what, by seeing what, does the destruction of the cankers come about? 'Such is material form, such is its arising, such is its passing away; such is feeling... such is perception... such are the mental formations... such is consciousness, such is its arising, such is its passing away': for him who knows this, for him who sees this, the destruction of the cankers comes about.
without knowing and seeing the passing away of perception and feeling there is no destruction of cankers contrary to your belief.

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