How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
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DooDoot
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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by DooDoot » Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:18 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:18 pm
Ananda Sutta: To Ananda
(On Self, No Self, and Not-self)
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
No.

The ideas in SN 44.10 are those of Vagattagatta and unrelated to annihilationism.

:focus:

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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by cappuccino » Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:20 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:18 pm
No.

the choice is yours, think as you prefer
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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by DooDoot » Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:21 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 9:57 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:09 pm
MN 43... he never says unconsciousness, he explicitly says that the faculties are exceptionally clear.
No. The sutta defines the "faculties" as the physical five sense organs. Thus in Nirodha-Samapatti, the sense organs are exceptionally purified but they are not conscious. Since the immaterial jhana that lead to Nirodha-Samapatti are only the mind sense base; how can the five physical sense organs function in Nirodha Samapatti? Again, you are clinging to English words & imagining things in suttas that are not there. :roll:
I will start a new topic about this. :twothumbsup:
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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by cappuccino » Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:23 pm

an·ni·hi·la·tion
noun
1.
complete destruction or obliteration.

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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:29 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 9:57 pm
And what is the unconditioned?

The ending of greed, hate, and delusion.

SN 43.12
What is the deathless?

The ending of greed, hate, and delusion.

SN 45.7
Unbinding is realized by means of cessation of conditioned phenomena therefore there is no greed, hate and delusion and insight is the way to cessation.
DooDoot wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 9:57 pm
Nibbana is not:

1. Cessation of perception & feeling

2. Consciousness without feature.
This has not been established by you and is the orthodox Theravada postion #2 in particular and probably #1 too as i showed in the commentary on Vinnana Anidassanam.

Prove it then because you are just stating your own opinion here, you are neither scholar nor are you known for meditative attainments. As a matter of fact your whole theory is based on denying other people's attainments and denying the superlative attainments altogether, to seemingly postulate annihilation.

If it is between going by the Tika and you i go with the commentary anytime and so should others.

You have also ignored the key Sutta which i posted among others namely;
Ud 8.1 PTS: Ud 80
Nibbāna Sutta: Unbinding (1)

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Sāvatthī at Jeta's Grove, Anāthapiṇḍika's monastery. And on that occasion the Blessed One was instructing, urging, rousing, & encouraging the monks with Dhamma-talk concerned with unbinding. The monks — receptive, attentive, focusing their entire awareness, lending ear — listened to the Dhamma.

Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed:
There is that dimension, monks, where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished,[1] unevolving, without support [mental object].[2] This, just this, is the end of stress.
Nibbāna Sutta: Unbinding (3)

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Sāvatthī at Jeta's Grove, Anāthapiṇḍika's monastery. And on that occasion the Blessed One was instructing, urging, rousing, & encouraging the monks with Dhamma-talk concerned with unbinding. The monks — receptive, attentive, focusing their entire awareness, lending ear — listened to the Dhamma.

Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed:
There is, monks, an unborn[1] — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated. If there were not that unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, there would not be the case that escape from the born — become — made — fabricated would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, escape from the born — become — made — fabricated is discerned.[2]
These are the Sutta you don't adress and you are writing off all the other Sutta based on the assumption of cessation of perception and feeling not being cessation of Sankhara which you can not prove, also i would like to hear your answer for what happens to an Arahant after death because i am almost sure you will postulate non existence.

Anyway i am done here and i doubt many people will take your interpretation to heart over the commentaries.
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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by DooDoot » Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:35 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:29 pm
Unbinding is realized by means of cessation of conditioned phenomena therefore there is no greed, hate and delusion and insight is the way to cessation.
No. You will need to find a direct Pali quote than says Nibbana is the nirodha of sankkara.

For example, MN 26 says the sankhara are "stilled", "calmed" or "samatho" in the here & now Nibbana (with fuel remaining).

:reading: :jumping:

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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:42 pm

As i said you are ignoring large portions of evidence and relying on your evil views to argue against the Classical Theravada positions.

Your interpretation of the Dhamma is super easy to understand and is as follows;
Parinibbana is attained by cessation of clinging to existence, as long as there is craving one is reborn. When one attains Parinibbana all is annihilated and destroyed with the breakup of the body and does not exist after death, at this point reality is completely annihilated and neither the world nor beyond is manifest.

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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by cappuccino » Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:47 pm

to understand Buddhism, it's necessary to understand annihilation ism
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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:55 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:35 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:29 pm
Unbinding is realized by means of cessation of conditioned phenomena therefore there is no greed, hate and delusion and insight is the way to cessation.
No. You will need to find a direct Pali quote than says Nibbana is the nirodha of sankkara.

For example, MN 26 says the sankhara are "stilled", "calmed" or "samatho" in the here & now Nibbana (with fuel remaining).

:reading: :jumping:
Look;
Dukkhata Sutta: Suffering

"Monks, there are these three kinds of suffering.[1] What three? Suffering caused by pain,[2] suffering caused by the formations (or conditioned existence),[3] suffering due to change.[4] It is for the full comprehension, clear understanding, ending and abandonment of these three forms of suffering that the Noble Eightfold Path is to be cultivated..."
Notes

1.
Dukkhataa, an abstract noun denoting "suffering" in the most general sense.
2.
Dukkha-dukkhataa, the actual feeling of physical or mental pain or anguish.
3.
Sankhaara-dukkhataa, the suffering produced by all "conditioned phenomena" (i.e., sankhaaras, in the most general sense: see BD [Buddhist Dictionary (2nd ed.), by Ven. Nyaa.natiloka, Ven. Nyaa.naponika (ed.), Colombo 1972] s.v. sankhaara I, 4). This includes also experiences associated with hedonically neutral feeling. The suffering inherent in the formations has its roots in the imperfectability of all conditioned existence, and in the fact that there cannot be any final satisfaction within the incessant turning of the Wheel of Life. The neutral feeling associated with this type of suffering is especially the indifference of those who do not understand the fact of suffering and are not moved by it.
4.
Viparinaama-dukkhataa, the suffering associated with pleasant bodily and mental feelings: "because they are the cause for the arising of pain when they change" (VM XIV, 35).
I do not think i have to show you that the 8FNP leads to Unbinding but i will anyway;
"And what is the middle way realized by the Tathagata that — producing vision, producing knowledge — leads to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding? Precisely this Noble Eightfold Path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. This is the middle way realized by the Tathagata that — producing vision, producing knowledge — leads to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding.
[c] "And what is the noble truth of the cessation of stress? The remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, & letting go of that very craving.

"And where, when being abandoned, is this craving abandoned? And where, when ceasing, does it cease? Whatever seems endearing and agreeable in terms of the world: that is where, when being abandoned, this craving is abandoned. That is where, when ceasing, it ceases.

"And what seems endearing and agreeable in terms of the world? The eye seems endearing and agreeable in terms of the world. That is where, when being abandoned, this craving is abandoned. That is where, when ceasing, it ceases.

"The ear... The nose... The tongue... The body... The intellect...

"Forms... Sounds... Smells... Tastes... Tactile sensations... Ideas...

"Eye-consciousness... Ear-consciousness... Nose-consciousness... Tongue-consciousness... Body-consciousness... Intellect-consciousness...

"Eye-contact... Ear-contact... Nose-contact... Tongue-contact... Body-contact... Intellect-contact...

"Feeling born of eye-contact... Feeling born of ear-contact... Feeling born of nose-contact... Feeling born of tongue-contact... Feeling born of body-contact... Feeling born of intellect-contact...

"Perception of forms... Perception of sounds... Perception of smells... Perception of tastes... Perception of tactile sensations... Perception of ideas...

"Intention for forms... Intention for sounds... Intention for smells... Intention for tastes... Intention for tactile sensations... Intention for ideas...

"Craving for forms... Craving for sounds... Craving for smells... Craving for tastes... Craving for tactile sensations... Craving for ideas...

"Thought directed at forms... Thought directed at sounds... Thought directed at smells... Thought directed at tastes... Thought directed at tactile sensations... Thought directed at ideas...

"Evaluation of forms... Evaluation of sounds... Evaluation of smells... Evaluation of tastes... Evaluation of tactile sensations... Evaluation of ideas seems endearing and agreeable in terms of the world. That is where, when being abandoned, this craving is abandoned. That is where, when ceasing, it ceases.

"This is called the noble truth of the cessation of stress.

[d] "And what is the noble truth of the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress? Just this very noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.
1)
Alagaddûpama Sutta
“Before and now, too, I only declare suffering and the ending of suffering”
Pubbe câhaṁ bhikkhave etarahi ca dukkhañ c’eva paññāpemi dukkhassa ca nirodhaṁ

Anurādha Sutta
“I only declare suffering and the ending of suffering”
dukkhañ c’eva paññāpemi dukkhassa ca nirodhan’ti
"Sabbe sankhara dukkha" ti yada pannaya passati
atha nibbindati dukkhe esa maggo visuddhiya.

Verse 278: "All conditioned phenomena are dukkha"; when one sees this with Insight-wisdom, one becomes weary of dukkha (i.e., the khandhas). This is the Path to Purity.

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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by rightviewftw » Sun Jun 10, 2018 12:06 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:35 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:29 pm
Unbinding is realized by means of cessation of conditioned phenomena therefore there is no greed, hate and delusion and insight is the way to cessation.
No. You will need to find a direct Pali quote than says Nibbana is the nirodha of sankkara.

For example, MN 26 says the sankhara are "stilled", "calmed" or "samatho" in the here & now Nibbana (with fuel remaining).

:reading: :jumping:
fwiw Unbinding is like Untangling a tangle as explained in the Tangle Sutta, when the Tangle is Untangled there is no more delusion. However the 4 stages Sotapanna, Sakidagami, Anagami and Arahant are attained by means of the 8FNP and the supramundane attainment which implies cessation of conditioned phenomena.
"In the same way, an excellent thoroughbred of a man, having gone to the wilderness, to the foot of a tree, or to an empty dwelling, dwells with his awareness not overcome by sensual passion, not obsessed with sensual passion. He discerns the escape, as it actually is present, from sensual passion once it has arisen.

"He dwells with his awareness not overcome by ill will... sloth & drowsiness... restlessness & anxiety... uncertainty, obsessed with uncertainty. He discerns the escape, as it actually is present, from uncertainty once it has arisen.

"He is absorbed dependent neither on earth, liquid, fire, wind, the sphere of the infinitude of space, the sphere of the infinitude of consciousness, the sphere of nothingness, the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception, this world, the next world, nor on whatever is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, or pondered by the intellect — and yet he is absorbed. And to this excellent thoroughbred of a man, absorbed in this way, the gods, together with Indra, the Brahmas, & Pajapati, pay homage even from afar:

'Homage to you, O thoroughbred man.
Homage to you, O superlative man —
you of whom we don't know even what it is
dependent on which
you're absorbed.'"
By means of this attainment mind comes to know the Highest Bliss and turns away from The Conditioned by knowing the highest bliss, thus The Tangle is untangled. That is how i understand.
"And what, Ananda, is another pleasure more extreme & refined than that? There is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of nothingness, enters & remains in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. This is another pleasure more extreme & refined than that. Though some might say, 'That is the highest pleasure that beings experience,' I would not grant them that. Why is that? Because there is another pleasure, more extreme & refined than that.

"And what, Ananda, is another pleasure more extreme & refined than that? There is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. This is another pleasure more extreme & refined than that.
Above excerpt is the Tathagata proclaiming the highest pleasure and it should be read with this passage in mind;
Dhammapada;

203. Jighacchāparamā rogā saṅkhāraparamā dukhā
Etaṃ ñatvā yathābhūtaṃ nibbāṇaparamaṃ sukhaṃ.

203
Hunger is the primary disease; conditioned phenomena, the primary suffering. Having seen the truth of this, Nibbana becomes the primary happiness.
Last thing i want to add to this thread is the full Sutta definition of the Vinnana Anidassanam;
Where do water, earth, fire, & wind
have no footing?
Where are long & short,
coarse & fine,
fair & foul,
name & form
brought to an end?

"'And the answer to that is:

Consciousness without feature,[1]
without end,
luminous all around:
Here water, earth, fire, & wind
have no footing.
Here long & short
coarse & fine
fair & foul
name & form
are all brought to an end.
With the cessation of [the activity of] consciousness
each is here brought to an end.'"

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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by rightviewftw » Sun Jun 10, 2018 12:46 am

I am not claiming a flawless understanding and it is very hard to get the terminology right for me ie;
To be accurate Nibbana =/= The Unconditioned Element however Realization of Nibbana means consequent realization of the Cessation/Unbinding of The Conditioned Phenomena (Nama&Rupa) and therefore realization of the Unconditioned Element which is not Dukkha nor Anicca and furthermore is reasonably equated to Vinnana Anidassanam.
I think it would be more accurate to say Unmade/Unfabricated intead of Unconditioned in light of this;
Nibbāna Sutta: Unbinding (3)

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Sāvatthī at Jeta's Grove, Anāthapiṇḍika's monastery. And on that occasion the Blessed One was instructing, urging, rousing, & encouraging the monks with Dhamma-talk concerned with unbinding. The monks — receptive, attentive, focusing their entire awareness, lending ear — listened to the Dhamma.

Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed:
There is, monks, an unborn[1] — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated. If there were not that unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, there would not be the case that escape from the born — become — made — fabricated would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, escape from the born — become — made — fabricated is discerned.[2]
And
And what is the unconditioned?

The ending of greed, hate, and delusion.

SN 43.12
But i am not sure, as i said it is hard to navigate

So apologize if i made errors in explaining this obviously difficult subject to talk about however i think it worth the risk when challenging the statements of OP because the matters of the Path and Final goal are important. I hope i have at least outlined an alternative to OP's ideas.

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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by DooDoot » Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:23 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:55 pm
Look;
Dukkhata Sutta: Suffering

"Monks, there are these three kinds of suffering.[1] What three? Suffering caused by pain,[2] suffering caused by the formations (or conditioned existence),[3] suffering due to change.[4]It is for the full comprehension, clear understanding, ending and abandonment of these three forms of suffering that the Noble Eightfold Path is to be cultivated[/color]..."
Sorry but this sutta does not literally say the "cessation of sankhara as conditioned phenomena", as you previously posted. For example, in the phrase: "sabbe sankhara anicca", the word sankhara refers to the five aggregates. The above quote does not refer to the five aggregates. Also, in the quote above, "sankhara" is not explicitly said to be "conditioned existence". The translator is merely guessing. You need to do better. :roll:

Since the quote above does not refer to craving, attachment & other defilements; sankhara above can only refer to craving, attachment & other defilements. I already posted this. The above quote is not different to what I posted and does not prove your wrong view that Nibbana is the cessation of feeling. :roll:
rightviewftw wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 12:06 am
Unbinding is like Untangling a tangle as explained in the Tangle Sutta, when the Tangle is Untangled there is no more delusion. However the 4 stages Sotapanna, Sakidagami, Anagami and Arahant are attained by means of the 8FNP and the supramundane attainment which implies cessation of conditioned phenomena.
No. Again, you are using the term "conditioned phenomena" inaccurately. :roll:
rightviewftw wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 12:06 am
"He dwells with his awareness not overcome by ill will... sloth & drowsiness... restlessness & anxiety... uncertainty, obsessed with uncertainty. He discerns the escape, as it actually is present, from uncertainty once it has arisen.
The above does not mention feelings (vedana). :roll:
rightviewftw wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 12:06 am
He is absorbed dependent neither on earth, liquid, fire, wind, the sphere of the infinitude of space, the sphere of the infinitude of consciousness, the sphere of nothingness, the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception, this world, the next world, nor on whatever is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, or pondered by the intellect — and yet he is absorbed. And to this excellent thoroughbred of a man, absorbed in this way, the gods, together with Indra, the Brahmas, & Pajapati, pay homage even from afar:
The above does not mention Nibbana is the cessation of feeling (vedana). :roll:
rightviewftw wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 12:06 am
That is how i understand.
There is no understanding I can discern. Just copy & pasting and imaging things from what is copied & pasted; like getting "drunk" on sutta words. :roll:
rightviewftw wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 12:06 am
Above excerpt is the Tathagata proclaiming the highest pleasure and it should be read with this passage in mind
This was already discussed. The word "pleasure" does not always refer to "feelings" ("vedana").
rightviewftw wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 12:06 am
Last thing i want to add to this thread is the full Sutta definition of the Vinnana Anidassanam... name & form are all brought to an end
This verse is spoken to Brahma Gods. There is no evidence it relates to Nibbana because Buddha-Dhamma says consciousness & nama-rupa arise & cease together. Please do not use this quote again because it is not clear teaching and there is universal disagreement about it. :thanks:
Last edited by DooDoot on Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:58 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by Pondera » Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:52 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:23 am

Since the quote above does not refer to craving, attachment & other defilements; sankhara above can only refer to craving, attachment & other defilements. I already posted this. The above quote is not different to what I posted and does not prove your wrong view that Nibbana is the cessation of feeling.
You actually think he has to prove that the cessation of feeling and perception is NIbbana? Isn’t this one of the most obvious and original truths in Buddhism?
At Savatthi. "For a monk practicing the Dhamma in accordance with the Dhamma, what accords with the Dhamma is this: that he keep cultivating disenchantment with regard to form, that he keep cultivating disenchantment with regard to feeling, that he keep cultivating disenchantment with regard to perception, that he keep cultivating disenchantment with regard to fabrications, that he keep cultivating disenchantment with regard to consciousness. As he keeps cultivating disenchantment with regard to form... feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness, he comprehends form... feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness. As he comprehends form... feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness, he is totally released from form... feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness. He is totally released from sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs. He is totally released, I tell you, from suffering & stress."
SN 22.39

There. You were wrong. Agreed?
Four simple meditations on earth, water, fire, and wind - leading to tranquility and pleasure, equanimity and peacehttps://drive.google.com/file/d/1G3qI6G ... sp=sharing

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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by DooDoot » Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:59 am

Pondera wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:52 am
There. You were wrong. Agreed?
Of course not. And I have not even read whatever it is was posted. :roll: Nibbana is the destruction of craving therefore it is impossible what i wrote was wrong.
At Savatthi. "For a monk practicing the Dhamma in accordance with the Dhamma, what accords with the Dhamma is this: that he keep cultivating disenchantment with regard to form, that he keep cultivating disenchantment with regard to feeling, that he keep cultivating disenchantment with regard to perception, that he keep cultivating disenchantment with regard to fabrications, that he keep cultivating disenchantment with regard to consciousness. As he keeps cultivating disenchantment with regard to form... feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness, he comprehends form... feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness. As he comprehends form... feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness, he is totally released from form... feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness. He is totally released from sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs. He is totally released, I tell you, from suffering & stress."
@Pondera. It seems like you misunderstood the very basic quote above. I already covered this in the OP.
DooDoot wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:34 pm
2. Also, other suttas correlate Nibbana with disenchantment, dispassion, non-attachment, etc.
:focus:
Last edited by DooDoot on Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by Pondera » Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:28 am

Not happy with that? Try this on for size. See if it fits you.
"In-&-out breaths are bodily; these are things tied up with the body. That's why in-&-out breaths are bodily fabrications. Having first directed one's thoughts and made an evaluation, one then breaks out into speech. That's why directed thought & evaluation are verbal fabrications. Perceptions & feelings are mental; these are things tied up with the mind. That's why perceptions & feelings are mental fabrications."

"Very good, venerable sir." And, delighting in and approving of Ven. Kamabhu's answer, Citta asked him a further question: "Now, how does the attainment of the cessation of perception & feeling come about?"

"The thought does not occur to a monk as he is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling that 'I am about to attain the cessation of perception & feeling' or that 'I am attaining the cessation of perception & feeling' or that 'I have attained the cessation of perception & feeling.' Instead, the way his mind has previously been developed leads him to that state."

"Very good, venerable sir." And, delighting in and approving of Ven. Kamabhu's answer, Citta asked him a further question: "When a monk is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling, which things cease first: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, or mental fabrications?"

"When a monk is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling, verbal fabrications cease first, then bodily fabrications, then mental fabrications."[1]
SN 41.6

Okay? Are you wrong yet?
Four simple meditations on earth, water, fire, and wind - leading to tranquility and pleasure, equanimity and peacehttps://drive.google.com/file/d/1G3qI6G ... sp=sharing

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