How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
Post Reply
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 3133
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by DooDoot » Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:34 pm

AN 9.34 is called Nibbana Sutta. The sutta revolves around the following theme:
Ven. Sariputta to the monks, "This Nibbana is pleasant, friends. This Nibbana is pleasant."

When this was said, Ven. Udayin said to Ven. Sariputta, "But what is the pleasure here, my friend, where there is nothing felt?"

Just that is the pleasure here, my friend: where there is nothing felt.
Now, the problem with the above sutta is:

1. The description of Nibbana by Ven. Udayin is not common in the suttas because the suttas define Nibbana as: "the destruction of craving".

2. Also, other suttas correlate Nibbana with disenchantment, dispassion, non-attachment, etc.

3. Therefore, when non-Aryians read AN 9.34, because a non-Aryian has not tasted the freedom of Nibbana, they might believe Nibbana is the Cessation of Perception & Feeling (which is a state of unconsciousness; compared to a corpse in MN 43 ).

AN 9.34 continues with Ven. Sariputta describing more coarse forms of pleasant feelings (such as from sensuality); which the mind ceases to take delight in due to experiencing more subtle forms of pleasant feelings (such as the 1st jhana). The sutta ends with the verse that includes another official definition of Nibbana, namely, the complete ending of the mental fermentations (asava):
And, having seen [that] with discernment, his mental fermentations are completely ended. So by this line of reasoning it may be known how Unbinding is pleasant.
In conclusion, because Nibbana is not a feeling ("vedana"); Nibbana is not pleasant because it is "felt". Instead, Nibbana is non-attachment. Non-attachment is pleasant (but non-attachment is not a feeling/vedana).
When there is no clinging; the mind attains Nibbana.

MN 37; MN 140; SN 12.51; etc
What do we think? Please discuss.

:popcorn:
Never ordained... not an anonymous-online-bhikkhu or ex-bhikkhu...

SarathW
Posts: 10327
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by SarathW » Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:56 pm

Does it mean Nibbana is a cessation of contact? (phasa)?
There is no contact there is no feeling.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 3133
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by DooDoot » Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:59 pm

SarathW wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:56 pm
Does it mean Nibbana is a cessation of contact? (phasa)?
There is no contact there is no feeling.
Of course not. You are not a newbie.
What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate, and delusion in him that is called the Nibbana-element with residue left.

Iti 44
SN 22.81 explains "contact" in Dependent Origination to refer to "contact with ignorance":
To an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person, touched by that which is felt born of contact with ignorance, craving arises

SN 22.81
Therefore, based on the two quotes above, the impression is the cessation of contact means the cessation of contact with ignorance, as described below:
On seeing a form with the eye, he does not lust after it if it is pleasing; he does not dislike it if it is unpleasing. He abides with mindfulness of the body established, with an immeasurable mind, and he understands as it actually is the deliverance of mind and deliverance by wisdom wherein those evil unwholesome states cease without remainder. Having thus abandoned favouring and opposing, whatever feeling he feels, whether pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant, he does not delight in that feeling, welcome it, or remain holding to it. As he does not do so, delight in feelings ceases in him. With the cessation of his delight comes cessation of clinging; with the cessation of clinging, cessation of being; with the cessation of being, cessation of birth; with the cessation of birth, ageing and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair cease. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering.

MN 38
:focus:
Never ordained... not an anonymous-online-bhikkhu or ex-bhikkhu...

SarathW
Posts: 10327
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by SarathW » Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:08 pm

the impression is the cessation of contact means the cessation of contact with ignorance,
Good analysis chief.
:twothumbsup:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 3133
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by DooDoot » Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:09 pm

SarathW wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:08 pm
the impression is the cessation of contact means the cessation of contact with ignorance,
Good analysis chief.
:twothumbsup:
Thank you friend SarathW :jumping:
rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:33 am
Nibbana Sutta: Unbinding

I have heard that on one occasion Ven. Sariputta was staying near Rajagaha in the Bamboo Grove, the Squirrels' Feeding Sanctuary. There he said to the monks, "This Unbinding is pleasant, friends. This Unbinding is pleasant."

When this was said, Ven. Udayin said to Ven. Sariputta, "But what is the pleasure here, my friend, where there is nothing felt?"

"Just that is the pleasure here, my friend: where there is nothing felt.
rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:33 am
As i understand it attainment of the fruition can be refered to as lokuttara jhana and this is explained in the Abhidhamma. I may be wrong about the term nirodha-samapatti tho. :roll:
Never ordained... not an anonymous-online-bhikkhu or ex-bhikkhu...

SarathW
Posts: 10327
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by SarathW » Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:15 pm

Thank you friend SarathW :jumping:
But I wonder how reverse Dependent Origination (cessation of ignorance etc) is applied to your logic.
Perhaps this is something for another thread.
:D
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

User avatar
rightviewftw
Posts: 2155
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:21 pm

OP is wrong, there are Sutta that define Nibbana differently as well ie;
Ud 8.1 PTS: Ud 80
Nibbāna Sutta: Unbinding (1)
translated from the Pali by

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Sāvatthī at Jeta's Grove, Anāthapiṇḍika's monastery. And on that occasion the Blessed One was instructing, urging, rousing, & encouraging the monks with Dhamma-talk concerned with unbinding. The monks — receptive, attentive, focusing their entire awareness, lending ear — listened to the Dhamma.

Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed:
There is that dimension, monks, where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished,[1] unevolving, without support [mental object].[2] This, just this, is the end of stress.
Nibbāna Sutta: Unbinding (3)

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Sāvatthī at Jeta's Grove, Anāthapiṇḍika's monastery. And on that occasion the Blessed One was instructing, urging, rousing, & encouraging the monks with Dhamma-talk concerned with unbinding. The monks — receptive, attentive, focusing their entire awareness, lending ear — listened to the Dhamma.

Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed:
There is, monks, an unborn[1] — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated. If there were not that unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, there would not be the case that escape from the born — become — made — fabricated would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, escape from the born — become — made — fabricated is discerned.[2]
Also this for you Doot :console:
"And what, Ananda, is another pleasure more extreme & refined than that? There is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. This is another pleasure more extreme & refined than that. Now it's possible, Ananda, that some wanderers of other persuasions might say, 'Gotama the contemplative speaks of the cessation of perception & feeling and yet describes it as pleasure. What is this? How can this be?' When they say that, they are to be told, 'It's not the case, friends, that the Blessed One describes only pleasant feeling as included under pleasure. Wherever pleasure is found, in whatever terms, the Blessed One describes it as pleasure.'"
And in regards this it was said ;
Nibbana Sutta: Unbinding

I have heard that on one occasion Ven. Sariputta was staying near Rajagaha in the Bamboo Grove, the Squirrels' Feeding Sanctuary. There he said to the monks, "This Unbinding is pleasant, friends. This Unbinding is pleasant."

When this was said, Ven. Udayin said to Ven. Sariputta, "But what is the pleasure here, my friend, where there is nothing felt?"

"Just that is the pleasure here, my friend: where there is nothing felt
.
Image
Last edited by rightviewftw on Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:31 pm, edited 3 times in total.

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 3133
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by DooDoot » Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:26 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:21 pm
OP is wrong, there are Sutta that define Nibbana differently as well ie;
Looks like the imagination is running wild again.

If the most basic definition of Nibbana (destruction of craving; greed, hatred & delusion) is rejected; how can the more subtle be understood? :shrug:
Never ordained... not an anonymous-online-bhikkhu or ex-bhikkhu...

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 3133
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by DooDoot » Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:30 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:21 pm
"And what, Ananda, is another pleasure more extreme & refined than that? There is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. This is another pleasure more extreme & refined than that. Now it's possible, Ananda, that some wanderers of other persuasions might say, 'Gotama the contemplative speaks of the cessation of perception & feeling and yet describes it as pleasure. What is this? How can this be?' When they say that, they are to be told, 'It's not the case, friends, that the Blessed One describes only pleasant feeling as included under pleasure. Wherever pleasure is found, in whatever terms, the Blessed One describes it as pleasure.'"
Irrelevant. Also, its exactly as I explained.
Reverends, when the Buddha describes what’s included in happiness, he’s not just referring to pleasant feeling
Last edited by DooDoot on Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Never ordained... not an anonymous-online-bhikkhu or ex-bhikkhu...

User avatar
rightviewftw
Posts: 2155
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:32 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:30 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:21 pm
"And what, Ananda, is another pleasure more extreme & refined than that? There is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. This is another pleasure more extreme & refined than that. Now it's possible, Ananda, that some wanderers of other persuasions might say, 'Gotama the contemplative speaks of the cessation of perception & feeling and yet describes it as pleasure. What is this? How can this be?' When they say that, they are to be told, 'It's not the case, friends, that the Blessed One describes only pleasant feeling as included under pleasure. Wherever pleasure is found, in whatever terms, the Blessed One describes it as pleasure.'"
Irrelevant.
obviously most relevant. so i tell you 'It's not the case, that the Blessed One describes only pleasant feeling as included under pleasure. Wherever pleasure is found, in whatever terms, the Blessed One describes it as pleasure.

If you want to argue that cessation of perception and feeling is not attained by Unbinding (cessation of Nama&Rupa) then go ahead and make your case for it here.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 3133
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by DooDoot » Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:33 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:32 pm
obviously most relevant. so i tell you 'It's not the case, that the Blessed One describes only pleasant feeling as included under pleasure. Wherever pleasure is found, in whatever terms, the Blessed One describes it as pleasure.
Its only relevant because it accords exactly to my explanation but not to your explanation. You are contradicting your own arguments. :clap:

I told you. I am the teacher here. :sage: You continue to misread the suttas.

In short, AN 9.34 does not say Nibbana is the cessation of feelings. :strawman: :jedi:
Last edited by DooDoot on Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Never ordained... not an anonymous-online-bhikkhu or ex-bhikkhu...

User avatar
rightviewftw
Posts: 2155
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:35 pm

refuted as far as i am concerned. You were presented with 3 Sutta refuting you and you ignored two of them and said that the third does not apply without any proof... So you stand refuted as far as i am concerned.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 3133
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by DooDoot » Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:39 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:35 pm
refuted as far as i am concerned. You were presented with 3 Sutta refuting you and you ignored two of them and said that the third does not apply without any proof... So you stand refuted as far as i am concerned.
No. I said wait.

MN 59 says:
'It's not the case, friends, that the Blessed One describes only pleasant feeling as included under pleasure. Wherever pleasure is found, in whatever terms, the Blessed One describes it as pleasure.'"
I said exactly the same (without ever reading MN 59 before):
In conclusion, because Nibbana is not a feeling ("vedana"); Nibbana is not pleasant because it is "felt". Instead, Nibbana is non-attachment. Non-attachment is pleasant (but non-attachment is not a feeling/vedana).
Its over. :guns:

You appear to have no idea about what you are reading. Please do not post again until I make another post.
Never ordained... not an anonymous-online-bhikkhu or ex-bhikkhu...

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 3133
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by DooDoot » Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:42 pm

Ven. Sariputta to the monks, "This Nibbana is pleasant, friends. This Nibbana is pleasant."

When this was said, Ven. Udayin said to Ven. Sariputta, "But what is the pleasure here, my friend, where there is nothing felt?"

Just that is the pleasure here, my friend: where there is no [feelings] felt.

'It's not the case, friends, that the Blessed One describes only pleasant feeling as included under pleasure. Wherever pleasure is found, in whatever terms, the Blessed One describes it as pleasure.'"
DootDoot wrote:In conclusion, because Nibbana is not a feeling ("vedana"); Nibbana is not pleasant because it is "felt". Instead, Nibbana is non-attachment. Non-attachment is pleasant (but non-attachment is not a feeling/vedana).
:buddha1: :bow: :bow: :bow:
Never ordained... not an anonymous-online-bhikkhu or ex-bhikkhu...

User avatar
rightviewftw
Posts: 2155
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: How to understand AN 9.34 (my explanation).

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:55 pm

It is not merely non-attachment;
"He is absorbed dependent neither on earth, liquid, fire, wind, the sphere of the infinitude of space, the sphere of the infinitude of consciousness, the sphere of nothingness, the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception, this world, the next world, nor on whatever is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, or pondered by the intellect — and yet he is absorbed. And to this excellent thoroughbred of a man, absorbed in this way, the gods, together with Indra, the Brahmas, & Pajapati, pay homage even from afar:

'Homage to you, O thoroughbred man.
Homage to you, O superlative man —
you of whom we don't know even what it is
dependent on which
you're absorbed.'"
9. “But, venerable sir, might there be another way in which a bhikkhu can be called skilled in the elements?”

“There might be, Ānanda. There are, Ānanda, these two elements: the conditioned element and the unconditioned element. When he knows and sees these two elements, a bhikkhu can be called skilled in the elements.”
rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:21 pm
Ud 8.1 PTS: Ud 80
Nibbāna Sutta: Unbinding (1)


I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Sāvatthī at Jeta's Grove, Anāthapiṇḍika's monastery. And on that occasion the Blessed One was instructing, urging, rousing, & encouraging the monks with Dhamma-talk concerned with unbinding. The monks — receptive, attentive, focusing their entire awareness, lending ear — listened to the Dhamma.

Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed:
There is that dimension, monks, where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished,[1] unevolving, without support [mental object].[2] This, just this, is the end of stress.
Nibbāna Sutta: Unbinding (3)

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Sāvatthī at Jeta's Grove, Anāthapiṇḍika's monastery. And on that occasion the Blessed One was instructing, urging, rousing, & encouraging the monks with Dhamma-talk concerned with unbinding. The monks — receptive, attentive, focusing their entire awareness, lending ear — listened to the Dhamma.

Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed:
There is, monks, an unborn[1] — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated. If there were not that unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, there would not be the case that escape from the born — become — made — fabricated would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, escape from the born — become — made — fabricated is discerned.[2]
"And what, Ananda, is another pleasure more extreme & refined than that? There is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. This is another pleasure more extreme & refined than that. Now it's possible, Ananda, that some wanderers of other persuasions might say, 'Gotama the contemplative speaks of the cessation of perception & feeling and yet describes it as pleasure. What is this? How can this be?' When they say that, they are to be told, 'It's not the case, friends, that the Blessed One describes only pleasant feeling as included under pleasure. Wherever pleasure is found, in whatever terms, the Blessed One describes it as pleasure.'"
And in regards this it was said ;
Nibbana Sutta: Unbinding

I have heard that on one occasion Ven. Sariputta was staying near Rajagaha in the Bamboo Grove, the Squirrels' Feeding Sanctuary. There he said to the monks, "This Unbinding is pleasant, friends. This Unbinding is pleasant."

When this was said, Ven. Udayin said to Ven. Sariputta, "But what is the pleasure here, my friend, where there is nothing felt?"

"Just that is the pleasure here, my friend: where there is nothing felt
.
Image

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 34 guests