Nirodha, could it be a fake attainment ?

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
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Re: Nirodha, could it be a fake attainment ?

Post by retrofuturist » Mon May 07, 2018 8:22 am

Greetings Layt,
Layt wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 9:24 pm
We're in the EARLY BUDDHISM category, not the classical Theravāda category, I don't care about your sutta.
Suttas are very relevant to the Early Buddhism section - arguably moreso than anything else. Please desist with your off-topic complaints.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Nirodha, could it be a fake attainment ?

Post by DooDoot » Mon May 07, 2018 9:06 am

Layt wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 10:28 pm
1. Rapture and happiness don't mean anything, or rather they could mean way too many different things, so they're irelevant.

2. Calm depends on feelings, and equanimity isn't a feeling.

3. You don't enter legendary esoteric mental states simply through calm.

4. Still no link between Infinite Space and Nothingness, you're just saying that "this comes after that" without giving any sort of logical explanation.

5. There is no perception when you're sleeping, so according to your precious Theravāda sleep is Nirodha. Then go sleep and stop saying non-sense.

The Mahāyana ? Really ? These guys don't have anything to do with buddhism.
It seems like everything you post is wrong. :mrgreen:

1. Rapture and happiness are the marks of the 1st and 2nd jhana. AN 4.123

2. The equanimity-faculty is to be seen as a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain. SN 48.38

3. The mind (citta) enters legendary esoteric mental states rather than a "you" or "self". (MN 1)

4. *Space is perceived as "spaciousness" & boundless consciousness is perceived as "boundless consciousness" until the faculty of perception itself starts to calm & its last perception is "There is nothing"; before it fades & collapses in the 8th jhana and ends in the unconsciousness of the 9th jhana. (MN 111)

5. Dukkha nirodha is awakening & not sleep (SN 56.11) but sanna-vedana-nirodha is like sleep (MN 43).

6. The Laytayana? Really ? Does this guys don't have anything to do with buddhism? :shrug:
Vision arose, insight arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before: 'This is the noble truth of the cessation (nirodha) of stress'... 'This noble truth of the cessation (nirodha) of stress is to be directly experienced'... 'This noble truth of the cessation (nirodha) of stress has been directly experienced.'

SN 56.11
Dukkha Nirodha is defined as follows:
And this, monks, is the noble truth of the cessation (nirodha) of stress: the remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, & letting go of that very craving.

SN 56.11
Sanna-Vedana-Nirodha is described as follows:
In the case of a monk who has attained the cessation (nirodha) of perception & feeling, his bodily fabrications [breathings] have ceased & subsided, his verbal fabrications [thinking] ... his mental fabrications [perceptions & feelings] have ceased & subsided, his vitality is not exhausted, his heat has not subsided & his [five sense organ] faculties are exceptionally clear [pure].

MN 43
A person does not need to be a rocket-scientist to discern the difference. :roll:

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Re: Nirodha, could it be a fake attainment ?

Post by Layt » Mon May 07, 2018 10:09 am

Ruud wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 8:09 am
Layt wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 9:24 pm
We're in the EARLY BUDDHISM category, not the classical Theravāda category, I don't care about your sutta. Theravāda is to original buddhism what mahāyana is to Theravāda. Your sutta aren't relevant, they're full of incoherences and inconsistencies, sometimes they don't even make sense.
I am seriously curious on what you base your idea of Early Buddhism if you dismiss the suttas, the Theravada tradition and the Mahayana tradition. There is not much left to build an idea of early (or any other flavor of) Buddhism on, after you take those away. Especially the suttas.
Layt wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 9:24 pm
And I’m here to make theories based upon these incoherences and incosistencies
Maybe look into the idea of papañca (mental proliferation)?
The thread is dedicated to original buddhism, not to the Theravāda or to any other early school.

Although the sutta might contain elements of original buddhism, they do not represent the original Dhamma, Theravāda isn't the Dhamma, it just pretends to be so, like the Mahāyana etc.

This is why I question whether or not Nirodha was part of the Dhamma, the inconsistencies (it's not mentioned as often as the formless) and the incoherences (some sutta say Nirodha is the end of the kammic imprints... they include breath, thoughts conception, recognition and feelings into "kammic imprints"... not only this doesn't make sense but it goes against the 5 khandha concept which defines kammic imprints, feelings and recognition as separate khandha) tends to prove that Nirodha was added to the doctrine as some kind of replacement for the brahmanical cessation-like attainment, which actually might very well be the "neither perception nor non-perception" attainment (the Buddha learnt it from another ascetic, probably of brahmanical background).

The bhikkhu who lived between the Buddha's death and the Theravāda tried desperately to compete with other sects like jainism, so they came up with concepts that would draw the maximum amount of people to them. This include the idea of "the 4 nobles ones" designed to make lay people think they can achieve something by supporting them, and this also very likely include Nirodha : a fake attainment designed to attract people who believed that Liberation could only be reached through the ending of every physical and mental process minus a bit of awareness (otherwise it would just be sleep).

The concepts of anattā and kamma also likely didn't originate from the Buddha himself. Anattā was designed to be like the Liberation-by-insight the other sects had come up with, "kamma" was to draw people of brahmanical beliefs of course. Notice that the 4 noble truths don't mention kamma as a factor of rebirth, they just mention craving. Those 4 noble truths probably come from the Buddha himself, not the 4 nobles truths themselves but the concept that craving creates suffering. What we call the 12 links weren't originally 12, and they unlikely involved the cessation of consciousness. I guess the 4 noble truths and the 12 links were originally the same thing.

Most of these theories don't come from me, they come from buddhologists, people who know the Theravāda and early buddhism better than all of us.

Anyway I believe that original buddhism was about purifying the mind from its unskillfull qualities (mostly craving, conceit and ill-will). I don't think that meditation had the same role and meaning as in the Theravāda, which places them as some kind legendary esoteric states (that no one ever reached). The overall doctrine wasn't complex, but some aspects of it might have been hard to understand for common people... unlike the Theravāda which possesses a complex doctrine, yet there isn't really anything hard to understand.

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Re: Nirodha, could it be a fake attainment ?

Post by dylanj » Mon May 07, 2018 10:40 am

SarathW wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 11:55 am
Anyway it's just a theory, what do you think ?
I am not sure of final Nibbana.
But I am sure of pre Nibbanic experience. (Sotapanna etc)
you cannot attain nibbāna if you don't believe in it

please correct this wrong view
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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Re: Nirodha, could it be a fake attainment ?

Post by DooDoot » Mon May 07, 2018 10:57 am

Layt wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 10:09 am
Most of these theories don't come from me, they come from buddhologists, people who know the Theravāda and early buddhism better than all of us.
Sounds like blind faith to me; like believing in Catholic priests. :roll:

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Re: Nirodha, could it be a fake attainment ?

Post by Layt » Mon May 07, 2018 3:08 pm

Oh I forgot the most important... the 4th jhāna (which is never described despite being literally the most important thing in the Theravāda) was probably invented by elder bhikkhu in order to keep the younger ones under their control. They made nibbāna an abhiññā, thus putting it on the same level as supernatural powers that don't exist (levitation, divine eye etc)... so by the time the 4th jhāna was invented, the way to realize nibbāna had likely already been lost.

If nibbāna can not be realized through liberating-insight (which is bullshit), if it can't be realized through the 4th jhāna (which doesn't exist) and if it can't be realized through Nirodha (aka neither perception nor non-perception) then either nibbāna doesn't exist or none of the Theravāda practices lead to it.

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Re: Nirodha, could it be a fake attainment ?

Post by Ruud » Mon May 07, 2018 3:32 pm

Layt wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 10:09 am
...
My point is that if you throw out the suttas, or at least cherrypick them as radically as you propose (even throwing out the understanding of the 4 Noble Truths, Dependent Origination, Nibbana and the levels of enlightenment), that you don’t end up with any form of Buddhism, not even early Buddhism. You just end up with Dhamma-inspired Layt-ism. From that point on discussing Nirodha or any other subject in relation to Buddhism becomes useless because there is no basis for the theories outside of your specific way of thinking.

Related to that, you paraphrase the Kalama-sutta as “Don’t believe blindly”, but while it indeed says “Don’t go by hearsay” and “Don’t go by a collection of scriptures” and “Don’t go by lineage of teaching”, it also says “Don’t go by logical reasoning” and “Don’t go by inferential reasoning” and “Don’t go by the acceptance of a view after pondering it”. It is the experience of what is unwholesome, blameworthy etc. that gets highlighted by the Buddha here.
Dry up what pertains to the past,
do not take up anything to come later.
If you will not grasp in the middle,
you will live at peace.
—Snp.5.11,v.1099 (tr. Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi)

Whatever is will be was. —Ven. Ñānamoli, A Thinkers Notebook, §221

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Re: Nirodha, could it be a fake attainment ?

Post by Layt » Mon May 07, 2018 4:37 pm

Like I said, the ones who were the first to threw out of the window the 4 noble truths etc are the buddhologists, and they know your religion better than you do.

Theravaada isn't buddhism, it's just a religion invented by people who heard about the Buddha but never met him, hundred of years had gone since his death and by then his doctrine had already been deformed and mixed up with other doctrines.

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Re: Nirodha, could it be a fake attainment ?

Post by Sam Vara » Mon May 07, 2018 5:18 pm

Layt wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 4:37 pm
Like I said, the ones who were the first to threw out of the window the 4 noble truths etc are the buddhologists, and they know your religion better than you do.
Who are these "Buddhologists"? What is the status of their alleged views regarding the 4 Noble Truths? Do you mean that they have proven that the historical Buddha never formulated them, or that he did formulate them but was wrong about them?

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Re: Nirodha, could it be a fake attainment ?

Post by Layt » Mon May 07, 2018 5:42 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 5:18 pm
Layt wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 4:37 pm
Like I said, the ones who were the first to threw out of the window the 4 noble truths etc are the buddhologists, and they know your religion better than you do.
Who are these "Buddhologists"? What is the status of their alleged views regarding the 4 Noble Truths? Do you mean that they have proven that the historical Buddha never formulated them, or that he did formulate them but was wrong about them?
Do you seriously not know who Gombrich or Vetter are ? They, like other indologists, are specialized in buddhist studies, they know Paali and Sanskrit, they studied the Tipitaka and found many inconsistencies and incoherences, in both the doctrine of the Theravaada and in the way the sutta were made... though that's not all, they try to understand the thought process of the Buddha by analyzing the other schools of thought that existed during his lifetime.

Well of course it's hard to prove anything since the Paali canon is all we have, but some of their theories have more than 90% chance to be true, like the 12 nidana for exemple, the first four nidana are taken directly from the Vedic cosmogony, their meaning entirely depends on it, the whole thing is a parody... either invented by the Buddha himself or later, anyway the nidana weren't originally 12, some were added later by bhikkhu who didn't understand their satirical aspect.

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Re: Nirodha, could it be a fake attainment ?

Post by Sam Vara » Mon May 07, 2018 5:56 pm

Layt wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 5:42 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 5:18 pm
Layt wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 4:37 pm
Like I said, the ones who were the first to threw out of the window the 4 noble truths etc are the buddhologists, and they know your religion better than you do.
Who are these "Buddhologists"? What is the status of their alleged views regarding the 4 Noble Truths? Do you mean that they have proven that the historical Buddha never formulated them, or that he did formulate them but was wrong about them?
Do you seriously not know who Gombrich or Vetter are ? They, like other indologists, are specialized in buddhist studies, they know Paali and Sanskrit, they studied the Tipitaka and found many inconsistencies and incoherences, in both the doctrine of the Theravaada and in the way the sutta were made... though that's not all, they try to understand the thought process of the Buddha by analyzing the other schools of thought that existed during his lifetime.

Well of course it's hard to prove anything since the Paali canon is all we have, but some of their theories have more than 90% chance to be true, like the 12 nidana for exemple, the first four nidana are taken directly from the Vedic cosmogony, their meaning entirely depends on it, the whole thing is a parody... either invented by the Buddha himself or later, anyway the nidana weren't originally 12, some were added later by bhikkhu who didn't understand their satirical aspect.
I'm familiar with the work of Gombrich, less so with Vetter. Where does Gombrich do whatever you think is "throwing out of the window" the Four Noble Truths? In What the Buddha Thought, he presents them as dovetailing into the Buddha's other teachings with impressive coherence. Could you give a quote from him demonstrates this conceptual defenestration? The same from Vetter would be appreciated. And any other "Buddhologists" that you can recall.

With regard to the Nidanas, you appear to be referring to Jurewicz's thesis which she presented in her paper on the cosmogony of the Rg Veda. If so, what does this have to do with the Four Noble Truths?

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Re: Nirodha, could it be a fake attainment ?

Post by Layt » Mon May 07, 2018 6:07 pm

Calm down, I didn't say that Gombrich or any other indologist completely threwed out the 4 noble truths, though they have theorized that some other concepts/practices likely didn't exist during the Buddha's lifetime. The thing about the 4 noble truths is that, apparently, they weren't the core of the Buddha's teaching, and they probably weren't exposed as they are today (for example, the eightfold path might've not existed, or it may have been much more simplified).

According to several indologists, jhaana was the only practice taught by the Buddha... the 4 noble truths were summarized and exposed as some kind of Liberating-insight used to attract lay followers by making them believe they could achieve Liberation just by knowing them.

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Re: Nirodha, could it be a fake attainment ?

Post by Sam Vara » Mon May 07, 2018 6:26 pm

Layt wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 6:07 pm
Calm down, I didn't say that Gombrich or any other indologist completely threwed out the 4 noble truths, though they have theorized that some other concepts/practices likely didn't exist during the Buddha's lifetime. The thing about the 4 noble truths is that, apparently, they weren't the core of the Buddha's teaching, and they probably weren't exposed as they are today (for example, the eightfold path might've not existed, or it may have been much more simplified).

According to several indologists, jhaana was the only practice taught by the Buddha... the 4 noble truths were summarized and exposed as some kind of Liberating-insight used to attract lay followers by making them believe they could achieve Liberation just by knowing them.
I am calm, thanks! Could you say what it is about my posts makes you think otherwise?

You said - your words! -
the ones who were the first to threw out of the window the 4 noble truths etc are the buddhologists
So somebody has thrown the Four Noble Truths out of the window, and the first to do this were "the buddhologists". Intrigued by this claim, I asked to who these "Buddhologists" were. You cited Gombrich and Vetter. Now, in the post quoted above, you claim that this process of defenestration was not complete. So could you please provide some quotes from these two, or indeed any other "Buddhologists" or "Indologists" which show what you actually do mean? Where does Gombrich, for example, claim that the Four Noble Truths were not the core of the Buddha's teaching? And where does he say that the Eightfold Path might have been much more simplified?

Gombrich's writings don't deal all that much with Jhana (he himself does not meditate, and he has little interest in the topic) so could you also show where he makes the claim that Jhana was the only practice taught by the Buddha? He seems to take an inordinate amount of care demonstrating that ethics, kamma, and the Three Marks are not only integrally important to the Buddha's dispensation, but also redically different from the Brahmanic and Jain teachings which went before. Quotes, please!

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Re: Nirodha, could it be a fake attainment ?

Post by budo » Mon May 07, 2018 10:14 pm

Layt wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 3:08 pm
Oh I forgot the most important... the 4th jhāna (which is never described despite being literally the most important thing in the Theravāda) was probably invented by elder bhikkhu in order to keep the younger ones under their control. They made nibbāna an abhiññā, thus putting it on the same level as supernatural powers that don't exist (levitation, divine eye etc)... so by the time the 4th jhāna was invented, the way to realize nibbāna had likely already been lost.

If nibbāna can not be realized through liberating-insight (which is bullshit), if it can't be realized through the 4th jhāna (which doesn't exist) and if it can't be realized through Nirodha (aka neither perception nor non-perception) then either nibbāna doesn't exist or none of the Theravāda practices lead to it.
Do you have any sources to back up this claim?

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