Nirodha, could it be a fake attainment ?

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
Layt
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Nirodha, could it be a fake attainment ?

Post by Layt » Sun May 06, 2018 11:17 am

Hi, am I the only one who wonders about whether or not Nirodha (the cessation of recognition and feelings) was part of original buddhism ?

This attainment is never refered to as the 9th jhāna in the sutta, and it's not mentioned that much either... whereas the arūpa jhāna are mentioned almost every time the Buddha talks about jhāna. Now remember : Nirodha leads directly to Nibbāna, meanwhile the arūpa jhāna serve no purpose whatsoever unless you want to realize Nirodha. So in theory Nirodha and the arūpa jhāna should both be mentioned equally, right ?

This makes me think that Nirodha wasn't invented by the Buddha, that its purpose was to serve as a replacement for the brahmanical meditation on the Self (or Soul, if you prefer), which was apparently often described as "nothingness" or "neither perception nor non-perception"... as we all know, these 2 terms refer to the 7th and 8th jhāna that were taught to the Buddha by other ascetics (probably of brahmanical background).

Thus, I believe that Nirodha might not actually exist, or rather that it refers to the 7th and 8th jhāna. Since the bhikkhu who compiled the sutta thought that these were different attainments, I think that the meditative pratice taught by the Buddha had already been lost or mixed up with other things at that time.

Anyway it's just a theory, what do you think ?

SarathW
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Re: Nirodha, could it be a fake attainment ?

Post by SarathW » Sun May 06, 2018 11:55 am

Anyway it's just a theory, what do you think ?
I am not sure of final Nibbana.
But I am sure of pre Nibbanic experience. (Sotapanna etc)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Layt
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Re: Nirodha, could it be a fake attainment ?

Post by Layt » Sun May 06, 2018 12:25 pm

SarathW wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 11:55 am
Anyway it's just a theory, what do you think ?
I am not sure of final Nibbana.
But I am sure of pre Nibbanic experience. (Sotapanna etc)
When I asked "what do you think ?" I was talking about Nirodha and the arūpa jhāna, I don't mind talking about other subjects but not on this thread ~

santa100
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Re: Nirodha, could it be a fake attainment ?

Post by santa100 » Sun May 06, 2018 5:01 pm

Layt wrote:meanwhile the arūpa jhāna serve no purpose whatsoever unless you want to realize Nirodha.
Actually they're legit and absolutely critical components to the approach of "red-lotus" practitioners. On the 7-fold classification of noble individuals, refer to MN 70. On the red-lotus vs. white-lotus individuals, refer to AN 4.87

Layt
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Re: Nirodha, could it be a fake attainment ?

Post by Layt » Sun May 06, 2018 5:09 pm

Classifications etc unlikely come from the Buddha himself, so I do not consider them relevant unless they are of high importance within the Theravāda (like the 4 noble truths, the 5 khandha, the Paṭicca Samuppāda...).

Saengnapha
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Re: Nirodha, could it be a fake attainment ?

Post by Saengnapha » Sun May 06, 2018 5:14 pm

Layt wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 11:17 am
Hi, am I the only one who wonders about whether or not Nirodha (the cessation of recognition and feelings) was part of original buddhism ?

This attainment is never refered to as the 9th jhāna in the sutta, and it's not mentioned that much either... whereas the arūpa jhāna are mentioned almost every time the Buddha talks about jhāna. Now remember : Nirodha leads directly to Nibbāna, meanwhile the arūpa jhāna serve no purpose whatsoever unless you want to realize Nirodha. So in theory Nirodha and the arūpa jhāna should both be mentioned equally, right ?

This makes me think that Nirodha wasn't invented by the Buddha, that its purpose was to serve as a replacement for the brahmanical meditation on the Self (or Soul, if you prefer), which was apparently often described as "nothingness" or "neither perception nor non-perception"... as we all know, these 2 terms refer to the 7th and 8th jhāna that were taught to the Buddha by other ascetics (probably of brahmanical background).

Thus, I believe that Nirodha might not actually exist, or rather that it refers to the 7th and 8th jhāna. Since the bhikkhu who compiled the sutta thought that these were different attainments, I think that the meditative pratice taught by the Buddha had already been lost or mixed up with other things at that time.

Anyway it's just a theory, what do you think ?
Nirodha Samapatti is a death-like state where the body is barely kept alive through subtle metabolism. This has been reported by individuals throughout history in various cultures and is not exclusive to Buddhism. It is very rare and has been lost in most traditions. According to the Buddha, he passed through the arupajhanas which were taught to him by his Indian teachers and reached the 8th jhana. Beyond the 8th jhana, nirodha samapatti is a transcendental experience which is the complete cessation of all mental functions. Mind stops and a kind of regeneration takes place.

Most of us don't need to think about this as it is not attainable through effort or practice. It seems to be a spontaneous occurrence.

Layt
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Re: Nirodha, could it be a fake attainment ?

Post by Layt » Sun May 06, 2018 5:36 pm

Ok so first of all I do not consider the Theravāda as being anywhere close to original buddhism so I do not believe blindly in everything I read in the sutta or in the Abhidhamma. This means that also I am very well aware of how Nirodha is described, yet I question its actual existence as a separate attainment from the 8th jhāna, which to me has always sounded like a cessation-attainment : physical perceptions cease, mental phenomena are so limited that one can question whether there is awareness or not (hence its name).

If Nirodha is a cessation-attainment, it can not involve the cessation of awareness, otherwise it would just be sleep. Thus on paper the 8th jhāna and Nirodha look identical, the only difference is the amount of description provided for Nirodha (the 8th jhāna is never described). Moreover both have a name that corresponds to the cessation state that ancient brahmanical ascetics discovered, the 8th jhāna itself is said to have been taught to the Buddha by a certain ascetic who could've very well been one of those brahmanical ascetics.

By saying yourself that Nirodha had been reported by many cultures throughout history, you strengthen my theory : if Nirodha actually exists and it is a separate attainment from the 8th jhāna, then it can not have been experienced by ascetics of other cultures (otherwise those would've all been pacceka Buddha)... so it would mean that those ascetics would've reached the 8th jhāna, this would also mean that the description you made of Nirodha is actually the description of the 8th jhāna... but if both Nirodha and the 8th jhāna are described in the same way, that very likely means they're the same attainment, hence this thread.

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Re: Nirodha, could it be a fake attainment ?

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Sun May 06, 2018 7:14 pm

cessation of perception and feeling is mentioned in DN 16, just immediately recalling from my memory, surely other places. dn 16 is an early buddhist text, not sure what disparity you perceive
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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Re: Nirodha, could it be a fake attainment ?

Post by DooDoot » Sun May 06, 2018 8:14 pm

Layt wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 11:17 am
This attainment is never refered to as the 9th jhāna in the sutta
It is described as a state of unconsciousness. Refer to MN 43 at the end of my post.
Layt wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 11:17 am
whereas the arūpa jhāna are mentioned almost every time the Buddha talks about jhāna.
Arūpa jhāna are not even mentioned as Samma Samadhi in the Noble Eighfold Path. Nor are arūpa jhāna mentioned in those teachings that describe the Buddha's enlightenment via the Four Rupa Jhana. SN 12.70 says arūpa jhāna are not required for arahantship.
Layt wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 11:17 am
Now remember : Nirodha leads directly to Nibbāna
It appears the word "Nirodha" does not always have the same meaning. For example, the "Dukkha Nirodha" of the 3rd Noble Truth (the destruction of craving) appears to be Nibbana but the Nirodha of Perception & Feeling (saññā-vedayita-nirodha) appear to not be Nibbana.
Layt wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 11:17 am
meanwhile the arūpa jhāna serve no purpose whatsoever unless you want to realize Nirodha. So in theory Nirodha and the arūpa jhāna should both be mentioned equally, right ?
Saññā-vedayita-nirodha is not directly related to Nibbana. Nibbana is the destruction of craving that results from vipassana (i.e., seeing the Three Characteristics, as explained in SN 22.59).
Layt wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 11:17 am
This makes me think that Nirodha wasn't invented by the Buddha
Your use of the word "Nirodha" appears to be incorrect. You appear to be imputing a universal meaning upon phrases in which the word "Nirodha" is found, which appears incorrect. When the word "Nirodha" is used in the following passages, it does not mean Saññā-Vedayita-Nirodha.
And this, monks, is the noble truth of the cessation of stress: the remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, & letting go of that very craving. SN 56.11

This state, too, is hard to see: the resolution of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding. MN 26

He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on cessation.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on cessation.' MN 118

There is the case where a monk develops mindfulness as a factor for awakening dependent on seclusion, dependent on dispassion, dependent on cessation, resulting in relinquishment. MN 118

Now from the remainderless fading and cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications.
From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness.
From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form.
From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media.
From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact.
From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling.
From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving.
From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance.
From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming.
From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth.
From the cessation of birth, then aging-&-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, and despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

MN 38
:alien:
Layt wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 5:36 pm
If Nirodha is a cessation-attainment, it can not involve the cessation of awareness, otherwise it would just be sleep.
I have advised you that you are using the word "Nirodha" incorrectly. "Dukkha Nirodha" (Nibbana) is not the same as Saññā-Vedayita-Nirodha (9th Jhana). Saññā-Vedayita-Nirodha appears to be state of unconsciousness, as described in MN 43, as follows:
When this body lacks these three qualities — vitality, heat & consciousness — it lies discarded & forsaken like a senseless log.

What is the difference between one who is dead, who has completed his time, and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling?

In the case of the one who is dead, who has completed his time, his bodily fabrications [in & out breathing] have ceased & subsided, his verbal fabrications [thinking] ... his mental fabrications [perception & feeling] have ceased & subsided, his vitality is exhausted, his heat subsided & his [five external sense organ] faculties are scattered. But in the case of a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling, his bodily fabrications have ceased & subsided, his verbal fabrications ... his mental fabrications have ceased & subsided, his vitality is not exhausted, his heat has not subsided, & his faculties are exceptionally clear. This is the difference between one who is dead, who has completed his time, and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Last edited by DooDoot on Sun May 06, 2018 8:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: Nirodha, could it be a fake attainment ?

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Sun May 06, 2018 8:31 pm

whether here or on your other topic, i have this

"There are five strands of sense desire. What are these five? Forms cognizable by the eye that are wished for, desirable, agreeable and endearing, bound up with sensual desire and tempting to lust. Sounds cognizable by the ear... odors cognizable by the nose... flavors cognizable by the tongue... tangibles cognizable by the body, that are wished for, desirable, agreeable and endearing, bound up with sense desire, and tempting to lust. These are the five strands of sense desire. The pleasure and joy arising dependent on these five strands of sense desire, that is called sensual pleasure.

"Now, if someone were to say: 'This is the highest pleasure and joy that can be experienced,' I would not concede that. And why not? Because there is another kind of pleasure which surpasses that pleasure and is more sublime. And what is this pleasure? Here, quite secluded from sensual desires, secluded from unwholesome states of mind, a monk enters upon and abides in the first meditative absorption (jhana), which is accompanied by thought conception and discursive thinking and has in it joy and pleasure born of seclusion. This is the other kind of pleasure which surpasses that (sense) pleasure and is more sublime.

"If someone were to say: 'This is the highest pleasure that can be experienced,' I would not concede that. And why not? Because there is another kind of pleasure which surpasses that pleasure and is more sublime. And what is that pleasure? Here, with the stilling of thought conception and discursive thinking... a monk enters upon and abides in the second meditative absorption... in the sphere of the infinity of space... of the infinity of consciousness... of no-thingness... of neither-perception-nor-non-perception.

"If someone were to say: 'This is the highest pleasure that can be experienced,' I would not concede that. And why not? Because there is another kind of pleasure which surpasses that pleasure and is more sublime. And what is this pleasure? Here, by completely surmounting the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, a monk enters upon and abides in the cessation of perception and feeling. This is the other kind of pleasure which surpasses that pleasure and is more sublime.[3]

"It may happen, Ananda, that Wanderers of other sects will be saying this: 'The recluse Gotama speaks of the Cessation of Perception and Feeling and describes it as pleasure. What is this (pleasure) and how is this (a pleasure)?'

"Those who say so, should be told: 'The Blessed One describes as pleasure not only the feeling of pleasure. But a Tathagata describes as pleasure whenever and whereinsoever it is obtained.'"

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nypo.html
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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Layt
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Re: Nirodha, could it be a fake attainment ?

Post by Layt » Sun May 06, 2018 8:52 pm

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 7:14 pm
cessation of perception and feeling is mentioned in DN 16, just immediately recalling from my memory, surely other places. dn 16 is an early buddhist text, not sure what disparity you perceive
It doesn't matter whether it's one of the earliest texts since by then the practices taught by the Buddha were likely already lost or mixed up with other practices.

Anyway, that sutta is the one where the Buddha attains Parinibbāna right ? Isn't Nirodha only mentioned once by Anuruddha ? Like I said the arūpa jhāna are mentioned countless times but Nirodha is only mentioned a couple of times, and since the arūpa jhāna serve no purpose other than to reach Nirodha... it just doesn't make sense, the arūpa jhāna and Nirodha should both be mentioned equally.

Note that the idea of progressive stages arūpa jhāna makes even less sense considering the fact that these are supposed to be one-pointed concentration states on abstract subjects : how does one transcend an arūpa jhāna while his/her whole mind is focused on it ? And how do you go from Infinite Consciousness to Nothingness ? It doesn't make any sense at all.

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Re: Nirodha, could it be a fake attainment ?

Post by DooDoot » Sun May 06, 2018 9:00 pm

Layt wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 8:52 pm
Anyway, that sutta is the one where the Buddha attains Parinibbāna right ? Isn't Nirodha only mentioned once by Anuruddha ? Like I said the arūpa jhāna are mentioned countless times but Nirodha is only mentioned a couple of times, and since the arūpa jhāna serve no purpose other than to reach Nirodha... it just doesn't make sense, the arūpa jhāna and Nirodha should both be mentioned equally.
You continue to use the word Nirodha wrongly.
Layt wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 8:52 pm
Note that the idea of progressive stages arūpa jhāna makes even less sense considering the fact that these are supposed to be one-pointed concentration states on abstract subjects : how does one transcend an arūpa jhāna while his/her whole mind is focused on it ? And how do you go from Infinite Consciousness to Nothingness ? It doesn't make any sense at all.
It obviously does not make sense to you. However, the suttas makes sense. Refer to MN 111. Also AN 9.34.
Layt wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 8:52 pm
And how do you go from Infinite Consciousness to Nothingness ? It doesn't make any sense at all.
In Infinite Consciousness, the mind perceives "Infinite Consciousness". But as the mind calms further, the perception that perceives "Consciousness" ceases and then the mind perceives "There is Nothing". What appears to occur here is a refinement of perceptions (rather than the disappearance of consciousness). But when when all perception eventually ends (at Saññā-Vedayita-Nirodha), consciousness must also end because consciousness cannot exist without a sense object (refer to SN 22.53 and MN 38, which say there cannot be any arising of consciousness without a sense object). Without a sense object (such as a feeling or a perception), consciousness must collapse into unconsciousness.
Were someone to say, 'I will describe a coming, a going, a passing away, an arising, a growth, an increase, or a proliferation of consciousness apart from form, from feeling, from perception, from fabrications,' that would be impossible.

SN 22.53

Layt
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Re: Nirodha, could it be a fake attainment ?

Post by Layt » Sun May 06, 2018 9:24 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 9:00 pm
Layt wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 8:52 pm
It doesn't matter whether it's one of the earliest texts since by then the practices taught by the Buddha were likely already lost or mixed up with other practices.
You have no evidence for this & this is not the way to conduct a discussion. Discussing Buddhism means to discuss what is in the suttas.
Layt wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 8:52 pm
Anyway, that sutta is the one where the Buddha attains Parinibbāna right ? Isn't Nirodha only mentioned once by Anuruddha ? Like I said the arūpa jhāna are mentioned countless times but Nirodha is only mentioned a couple of times, and since the arūpa jhāna serve no purpose other than to reach Nirodha... it just doesn't make sense, the arūpa jhāna and Nirodha should both be mentioned equally.
You continue to use the word Nirodha wrongly.
Layt wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 8:52 pm
Note that the idea of progressive stages arūpa jhāna makes even less sense considering the fact that these are supposed to be one-pointed concentration states on abstract subjects : how does one transcend an arūpa jhāna while his/her whole mind is focused on it ? And how do you go from Infinite Consciousness to Nothingness ? It doesn't make any sense at all.
It obviously does not make sense to you. However, the suttas makes sense. Refer to MN 111. Also AN 9.34.
Layt wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 8:52 pm
And how do you go from Infinite Consciousness to Nothingness ? It doesn't make any sense at all.
In Infinite Consciousness, the mind perceives "Infinite Consciousness". But as the mind calms further, the "perception" that perceives "Consciousness" ceases and the mind perceives "There is Nothing". What appears to occur here is a refinement of perceptions (rather than the disappearance of consciousness).
We're in the EARLY BUDDHISM category, not the classical Theravāda category, I don't care about your sutta. Theravāda is to original buddhism what mahāyana is to Theravāda. Your sutta aren't relevant, they're full of incoherences and inconsistencies, sometimes they don't even make sense. And I'm here to make theories based upon these very incoherences and incosistencies.

And still there is no logical link between Infinite Consciousness and Nothingness. Just because a text says they're linked doesn't make them linked... do you even know the Kalama sutta or whatever its name is ? "Don't believe blindly".

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DooDoot
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Re: Nirodha, could it be a fake attainment ?

Post by DooDoot » Sun May 06, 2018 9:36 pm

Layt wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 9:24 pm
And still there is no logical link between Infinite Consciousness and Nothingness.
The suttas are perfectly logical & coherent. Let me simplify it:

1. Calming the mind calms the body & breathing & gives rise to rapture (1st & 2nd jhana).

2. Calming the mind further calms rapture & gives rise to happiness (as the object of awareness & perception). 3rd jhana

3. Calming the mind further calms happiness & gives rise to feeling of equanimity (as the object of awareness & perception). 4th jhana

4. Calming the mind further calms equanimity & gives rise to infinite space (as the object of awareness & perception). 5th jhana

5. Calming the mind further calms the perception of infinite space & gives rise to infinite consciousness (as the object of awareness & perception). 6th jhana

6. Calming the mind further calms the perception of infinite consciousness & gives rise to nothingness (as the object of awareness & perception). 7th jhana

7. Calming the mind further calms the perception of nothingness & gives rise to breaking down of perception, called the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. 8th jhana

8. Calming the mind, finally perception ends, which is Saññā-Vedayita-Nirodha. 9th jhana
Layt wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 9:24 pm
do you even know the Kalama sutta or whatever its name is ? "Don't believe blindly".
The Kalama Sutta also implies to not disbelieve blindly. ;)

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Re: Nirodha, could it be a fake attainment ?

Post by SarathW » Sun May 06, 2018 10:17 pm

I don't care about your sutta.
Well, then I do not think we can help you.
The only thing many of us can do is to point to Sutta.
I have to agree with DoDot even in Sutta senses even though I do not have any first-hand experience.
What are the bases for your argument? Do you have a first-hand experience?
It appears you believe in Mahayana.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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