Nirodha, could it be a fake attainment ?

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Nirodha, could it be a fake attainment ?

Post by Sam Vara » Mon May 07, 2018 5:56 pm

Layt wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 5:42 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 5:18 pm
Layt wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 4:37 pm
Like I said, the ones who were the first to threw out of the window the 4 noble truths etc are the buddhologists, and they know your religion better than you do.
Who are these "Buddhologists"? What is the status of their alleged views regarding the 4 Noble Truths? Do you mean that they have proven that the historical Buddha never formulated them, or that he did formulate them but was wrong about them?
Do you seriously not know who Gombrich or Vetter are ? They, like other indologists, are specialized in buddhist studies, they know Paali and Sanskrit, they studied the Tipitaka and found many inconsistencies and incoherences, in both the doctrine of the Theravaada and in the way the sutta were made... though that's not all, they try to understand the thought process of the Buddha by analyzing the other schools of thought that existed during his lifetime.

Well of course it's hard to prove anything since the Paali canon is all we have, but some of their theories have more than 90% chance to be true, like the 12 nidana for exemple, the first four nidana are taken directly from the Vedic cosmogony, their meaning entirely depends on it, the whole thing is a parody... either invented by the Buddha himself or later, anyway the nidana weren't originally 12, some were added later by bhikkhu who didn't understand their satirical aspect.
I'm familiar with the work of Gombrich, less so with Vetter. Where does Gombrich do whatever you think is "throwing out of the window" the Four Noble Truths? In What the Buddha Thought, he presents them as dovetailing into the Buddha's other teachings with impressive coherence. Could you give a quote from him demonstrates this conceptual defenestration? The same from Vetter would be appreciated. And any other "Buddhologists" that you can recall.

With regard to the Nidanas, you appear to be referring to Jurewicz's thesis which she presented in her paper on the cosmogony of the Rg Veda. If so, what does this have to do with the Four Noble Truths?

Layt
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Re: Nirodha, could it be a fake attainment ?

Post by Layt » Mon May 07, 2018 6:07 pm

Calm down, I didn't say that Gombrich or any other indologist completely threwed out the 4 noble truths, though they have theorized that some other concepts/practices likely didn't exist during the Buddha's lifetime. The thing about the 4 noble truths is that, apparently, they weren't the core of the Buddha's teaching, and they probably weren't exposed as they are today (for example, the eightfold path might've not existed, or it may have been much more simplified).

According to several indologists, jhaana was the only practice taught by the Buddha... the 4 noble truths were summarized and exposed as some kind of Liberating-insight used to attract lay followers by making them believe they could achieve Liberation just by knowing them.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Nirodha, could it be a fake attainment ?

Post by Sam Vara » Mon May 07, 2018 6:26 pm

Layt wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 6:07 pm
Calm down, I didn't say that Gombrich or any other indologist completely threwed out the 4 noble truths, though they have theorized that some other concepts/practices likely didn't exist during the Buddha's lifetime. The thing about the 4 noble truths is that, apparently, they weren't the core of the Buddha's teaching, and they probably weren't exposed as they are today (for example, the eightfold path might've not existed, or it may have been much more simplified).

According to several indologists, jhaana was the only practice taught by the Buddha... the 4 noble truths were summarized and exposed as some kind of Liberating-insight used to attract lay followers by making them believe they could achieve Liberation just by knowing them.
I am calm, thanks! Could you say what it is about my posts makes you think otherwise?

You said - your words! -
the ones who were the first to threw out of the window the 4 noble truths etc are the buddhologists
So somebody has thrown the Four Noble Truths out of the window, and the first to do this were "the buddhologists". Intrigued by this claim, I asked to who these "Buddhologists" were. You cited Gombrich and Vetter. Now, in the post quoted above, you claim that this process of defenestration was not complete. So could you please provide some quotes from these two, or indeed any other "Buddhologists" or "Indologists" which show what you actually do mean? Where does Gombrich, for example, claim that the Four Noble Truths were not the core of the Buddha's teaching? And where does he say that the Eightfold Path might have been much more simplified?

Gombrich's writings don't deal all that much with Jhana (he himself does not meditate, and he has little interest in the topic) so could you also show where he makes the claim that Jhana was the only practice taught by the Buddha? He seems to take an inordinate amount of care demonstrating that ethics, kamma, and the Three Marks are not only integrally important to the Buddha's dispensation, but also redically different from the Brahmanic and Jain teachings which went before. Quotes, please!

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budo
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Re: Nirodha, could it be a fake attainment ?

Post by budo » Mon May 07, 2018 10:14 pm

Layt wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 3:08 pm
Oh I forgot the most important... the 4th jhāna (which is never described despite being literally the most important thing in the Theravāda) was probably invented by elder bhikkhu in order to keep the younger ones under their control. They made nibbāna an abhiññā, thus putting it on the same level as supernatural powers that don't exist (levitation, divine eye etc)... so by the time the 4th jhāna was invented, the way to realize nibbāna had likely already been lost.

If nibbāna can not be realized through liberating-insight (which is bullshit), if it can't be realized through the 4th jhāna (which doesn't exist) and if it can't be realized through Nirodha (aka neither perception nor non-perception) then either nibbāna doesn't exist or none of the Theravāda practices lead to it.
Do you have any sources to back up this claim?

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