lets talk about these marks again

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
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Dhammarakkhito
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lets talk about these marks again

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:14 am

those 32 marks that so many scholars who know better say are fake. if you insist as sujato does that DN 30 is a late addition -- which doesn't prove it to be inauthentic -- you still have DN 3 and DN 14
and if you believe the DN is added on/fake you, as i recently discovered, have several verses in the sutta nipata which reference the marks. and the buddha speaks of them, they are not just spoken about by brahmins. in particular, Snp 3.7 is identical to MN 92, so you have the marks in such places as it should make difficult to say they are not part of the true dhamma. if you dont value authenticity then that is a different discussion to be had. we could talk about the value of this teaching, but to the extent i understand authenticity this is more than likely real buddhavacana.

"There is plenty of incidental detail in the Suttas and Vinaya that show that the Buddha was normal in appearance, so any freakish or supernatural interpretation of the marks must be wrong. Leaving a few of the bizarre elements aside, most of the marks are straightforward signs of physical beauty: black hair, white teeth, gold skin, and the like."

that is like the opposite of what kalama sutta asks us to do. going by logical conjecture to explain away the teaching
DN 3 to my memory said the marks were only detectable to the trained eye. anyway, raw sense impression isnt how we recognize a 'person', its how we perceive. this just shows us how western buddhists havent transcended materialist philosophy. it doesn't occur to one that one is unenlightened and that some aspects of the dhamma will appear very new and conflicting with one's preconceptions. now, if someone were to present me with credible evidence of tampering, not just because it agrees with brahmanical lore, i would say ok, let's take a look at that
i would even take something like, the marks are 'this' instead of 'this' and we should view them allegorically. writing them off because you dont like them isnt doing anyone a favor. explaining what the buddha said as what he didnt say is slander, so i say let's be on the safe side. the dhamma isn't going to last forever, another reason to stay on the safe side. furthermore, i found DN 30 inspiring as it tells us about the bodily results of kamma, it is similar to the sutta where the buddha said he rebirthed as sakka 36 times. it inspires me to practice.
there was another thread or so on this, but i wasnt very nice and its been awhile so
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"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
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JamesTheGiant
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Re: lets talk about these marks again

Post by JamesTheGiant » Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:19 am

The Buddha was a not a freakish monster. He was a man. Anyone with those 32 marks is a bizzare mutant. Use some common sense.

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: lets talk about these marks again

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Sun Apr 08, 2018 8:24 pm

i did address that in my original post. if i were to use "common sense", which isn't defined, i would have to explain how the marks ended up in the texts and what their meaning was. i wont speculate without hard evidence
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught

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DooDoot
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Re: lets talk about these marks again

Post by DooDoot » Sun Apr 08, 2018 8:27 pm


"Enough, Vakkali! What is there to see in this vile body? He who sees Dhamma, Vakkali, sees me; he who sees me sees Dhamma. Truly seeing Dhamma, one sees me; seeing me one sees Dhamma."

SN 22.87
:roll:

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: lets talk about these marks again

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Sun Apr 08, 2018 9:46 pm

at the same time, the results of good kamma, not even pertaining to the marks, are experienced as beauty, long life, wealth, good health, so on. i dont see a conflict
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught

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Aloka
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Re: lets talk about these marks again

Post by Aloka » Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:05 pm

This is a link to Bhikkhu Sujato's comments on the 32 marks:

https://sujato.wordpress.com/2011/04/06 ... -32-marks/

....and this is a link to Bhikkhu Analayo's article " The Buddha and Omniscience" in which he mentions the 32 marks.

https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg ... cience.pdf

I hope that they will both be helpful.


:anjali:

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