Dhammas

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
thomaslaw
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Dhammas

Post by thomaslaw » Tue Mar 27, 2018 1:06 am

Hi

Dhammas (conditioned phenomena), e.g. khandhas, Ayatanas, not only should be seen as they really are as anicca (impermanent), dukkha (suffering), anatta (not-self), but also should be seen as they really are as rittaka (void, without reality), as tucchaka (insubstantial), as asaaraka (lacking essence), and as su~n~naka (empty), according to SN 22.95 and SN 35.197 (See Choong Mun-keat, The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, pp. 53-54, 92).

It seems that Dhammas are in fact not real, without reality! :meditate:

Thomas

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retrofuturist
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Re: Dhammas

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Mar 27, 2018 1:55 am

Greetings,

Yes. The only dhamma which could be said to be "real", in the sense of not having been mentally-fabricated, is nibbana.

There have been topics in recent history on the nature of dhammas, but people complaining (about that which is too subtle and not geared toward the lowest common denominator) has been a deterrent for me in relation to continuing on with such discussions... but if you search you can find them.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Dhammas

Post by DooDoot » Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:56 am

thomaslaw wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 1:06 am
Dhammas (conditioned phenomena), e.g. khandhas, Ayatanas
The Pali appears to call conditioned phenomena 'sankara' (rather than 'dhamma' because 'dhamma' includes the unconditioned Nibbana).
thomaslaw wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 1:06 am
It seems that Dhammas are in fact not real, without reality!
If this is so, then it appears the idea that "Dhammas are in fact not real, without reality!" is also not real, without reality! :roll:

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Re: Dhammas

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:05 am

Greetings,
DooDoot wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:56 am
If this is so, then it appears the idea that "Dhammas are in fact not real, without reality!" is also not real, without reality! :roll:
Indeed. It too is a sankhara.
SN 22.95 wrote:"Now suppose that a man desiring heartwood, in quest of heartwood, seeking heartwood, were to go into a forest carrying a sharp ax. There he would see a large banana tree: straight, young, of enormous height. He would cut it at the root and, having cut it at the root, would chop off the top. Having chopped off the top, he would peel away the outer skin. Peeling away the outer skin, he wouldn't even find sapwood, to say nothing of heartwood. Then a man with good eyesight would see it, observe it, & appropriately examine it. To him — seeing it, observing it, & appropriately examining it — it would appear empty, void, without substance: for what substance would there be in a banana tree? In the same way, a monk sees, observes, & appropriately examines any fabrications that are past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near. To him — seeing them, observing them, & appropriately examining them — they would appear empty, void, without substance: for what substance would there be in fabrications?
Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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rightviewftw
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Re: Dhammas

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:51 am

https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/re ... ana/8839/3
A recent thread about Dhammas on SC, a quite comperhensive explaination.
How to Destroy any addiction
How to Meditate: Satipatthana Mahasi
Медитация Сатипаттхана Випассана
How To Develop Factors of Enlightenment & Perceptions
Ven. Kutukurunde Nanananda's (Developing Metta)
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
Dhammatalks categorized by topic @ video.sirimangalo.org/
Ledi Sayadaw's Anapana Dipani (Samatha) @ ffmt.fr/articles/maitres/LediS/anapana-dipani.ledi-sayadaw.pdf
Parallel Dhammapada @ myweb.ncku.edu.tw/~lsn46/tipitaka/sutta/khuddaka/dhammapada/dhp-contrast-reading/dhp-contrast-reading-en/

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Re: Dhammas

Post by DooDoot » Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:59 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:51 am
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/re ... ana/8839/3
A recent thread about Dhammas on SC, a quite comperhensive explaination.
I doubt everything written on SC is correct. For example, the 1st post sounds very strange, at least to me:
I do not say that Nibbana is taken as an object, Nibbana is when Sankaharas[Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta] Cease.

The referent is Nibbana itself, it is a singleness and a reality.

It refers to the realization[uncovering] of The 3rd Noble Truth: A possible reality without the characteristic of impermanence.

It is also Anatta because there is no observer.

I would say it is a reality without a universe/world but i don’t like these english terms, because they are abstract [poorly defined] being a “mystery” of science, but it think it is ok and may make it easier to understand for some.
* Ud 8.1 says Nibbana is an object (ayatana).

* The suttas say greed, hatred & delusion do not exist in Nibbana (rather than Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta cease).

* The suttas appear to say seeing Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta results in the ceasing of greed, hatred & delusion, which allows Nibbana to be known.

* The suttas appear to say Arahants continue to observe Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta.

* The suttas say the 3rd Noble Truth is a possible reality without craving (rather than without the characteristic of impermanence).

* The suttas appear to say anatta is observed therefore there must be some type of observer; even if that observer is impersonal.

* The poster takes the word 'dukkha' to have the same meaning in all contexts, which cannot be true, because the term 'dukkha vedana' is not translated as 'suffering feelings'.

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Re: Dhammas

Post by James Tan » Sun Apr 01, 2018 6:25 am

("If a monk abandons passion for the property of consciousness, then owing to the abandonment of passion, the support is cut off, and there is no landing of consciousness. Consciousness, thus not having landed, not increasing, not concocting, is released. Owing to its release, it is steady. Owing to its steadiness, it is contented. Owing to its contentment, it is not agitated. Not agitated, he (the monk) is totally unbound right within. He discerns that ‘Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.")
SN 22.53

What does it mean by "unbound within" ?
Is it a state ? Just a description ?
If after breakup of the body , without any six senses , there won't be any consciousness arise ,
Then there will be no more Vinnana Anidassanam also .
:reading:

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rightviewftw
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Re: Dhammas

Post by rightviewftw » Sun Apr 01, 2018 6:59 am

James Tan wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 6:25 am
If after breakup of the body , without any six senses , there won't be any consciousness arise ,
Then there will be no more Vinnana Anidassanam also .
Vinnana Anidassanam does not offer footing for the body or the senses to begin with.
Where do water, earth, fire, & wind
have no footing?
Where are long & short,
coarse & fine,
fair & foul,
name & form
brought to an end?
"'And the answer to that is:


Vinnana Anidassanam,[1]
without end,
luminous all around:
Here water, earth, fire, & wind
have no footing.
Here long & short
coarse & fine
fair & foul
name & form
are all brought to an end.
With the cessation of [the activity of] consciousness
each is here brought to an end.'"
What you are saying does not apply. When Vinnana Anidassanam is, the Consciousness that is basis for clinging [Aggregate] and Nama&Rupa in general gain no footing.

Why is normal consciousness an Aggregate, why is it a Heap? Because it is conjoined not disjoined from perception&feeling, in other words It is a convention of language to describe the arising of Sankhara.
thomaslaw wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 1:06 am
Dhammas (conditioned phenomena)
All conditioned phenomena are Dhamma but not all Dhamma are conditioned phenomena. Like all apples are fruit but not all fruit are apples.
How to Destroy any addiction
How to Meditate: Satipatthana Mahasi
Медитация Сатипаттхана Випассана
How To Develop Factors of Enlightenment & Perceptions
Ven. Kutukurunde Nanananda's (Developing Metta)
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
Dhammatalks categorized by topic @ video.sirimangalo.org/
Ledi Sayadaw's Anapana Dipani (Samatha) @ ffmt.fr/articles/maitres/LediS/anapana-dipani.ledi-sayadaw.pdf
Parallel Dhammapada @ myweb.ncku.edu.tw/~lsn46/tipitaka/sutta/khuddaka/dhammapada/dhp-contrast-reading/dhp-contrast-reading-en/

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Re: Dhammas

Post by James Tan » Sun Apr 01, 2018 7:08 am

Well , let's just say , if there is anything left after the breakup of the body , that has nothing to do with this world .
:reading:

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rightviewftw
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Re: Dhammas

Post by rightviewftw » Sun Apr 01, 2018 7:16 am

James Tan wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 7:08 am
Well , let's just say , if there is anything left after the breakup of the body , that has nothing to do with this world .
technically it is wrong to say "left" since we are specifically talking about remainderless cessation, complete extinction of conditioned phenomena[suffering].
Imo one could paraphrase saying "if there is anything after the breakup of an Arahant's body, that has nothing to do with this world or any sphere of existence."
How to Destroy any addiction
How to Meditate: Satipatthana Mahasi
Медитация Сатипаттхана Випассана
How To Develop Factors of Enlightenment & Perceptions
Ven. Kutukurunde Nanananda's (Developing Metta)
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
Dhammatalks categorized by topic @ video.sirimangalo.org/
Ledi Sayadaw's Anapana Dipani (Samatha) @ ffmt.fr/articles/maitres/LediS/anapana-dipani.ledi-sayadaw.pdf
Parallel Dhammapada @ myweb.ncku.edu.tw/~lsn46/tipitaka/sutta/khuddaka/dhammapada/dhp-contrast-reading/dhp-contrast-reading-en/

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Re: Dhammas

Post by James Tan » Sun Apr 01, 2018 7:28 am

Therefore , ultimately the ultimate enlightenment has nothing to do with this world and for this world . This is why those have the world does not have dhamma . Those have dhamma does not have the world .
:reading:

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rightviewftw
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Re: Dhammas

Post by rightviewftw » Sun Apr 01, 2018 9:34 am

:shrug: not sure what you mean by that and since you were technically taking annihilation position earlier i am hestitant to encourage your ideas.
I think Dhamma can be translated as Reality in many contexts.
Imho the word Dhamma is connected to the word reality and Sankhara to information or "in-formation" but i have not been able to formulate/verbalize anything comperhensive yet.
How to Destroy any addiction
How to Meditate: Satipatthana Mahasi
Медитация Сатипаттхана Випассана
How To Develop Factors of Enlightenment & Perceptions
Ven. Kutukurunde Nanananda's (Developing Metta)
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
Dhammatalks categorized by topic @ video.sirimangalo.org/
Ledi Sayadaw's Anapana Dipani (Samatha) @ ffmt.fr/articles/maitres/LediS/anapana-dipani.ledi-sayadaw.pdf
Parallel Dhammapada @ myweb.ncku.edu.tw/~lsn46/tipitaka/sutta/khuddaka/dhammapada/dhp-contrast-reading/dhp-contrast-reading-en/

thomaslaw
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Re: Dhammas

Post by thomaslaw » Mon Apr 02, 2018 2:35 am

Hi

It seems nibbana (cessation of dukkha, of dhamma) (= dhamma-nirodha) is not a dhamma? I could not find SN suttas state the Buddha as saying that nibbana is a dhamma (?)

But, a SA sutra, SA 293, states the Buddha as saying that nirvana/nibbana is a dharma (see The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, pp. 197-8).

Thomas

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DooDoot
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Re: Dhammas

Post by DooDoot » Mon Apr 02, 2018 4:53 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 6:59 am
Vinnana Anidassanam does not offer footing for the body or the senses to begin with.
What does the term "no footing" (na gādhati) mean? :shrug:
rightviewftw wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 6:59 am
Vinnana Anidassanam,
without end,
luminous all around:
Here water, earth, fire, & wind
have no footing.
Here long & short
coarse & fine
fair & foul
name & form
are all brought to an end.
With the cessation of [the activity of] consciousness
each is here brought to an end.'"
What you are saying does not apply. When Vinnana Anidassanam is, the Consciousness that is basis for clinging [Aggregate] and Nama&Rupa in general gain no footing.
This sutta appears to say nama & rupa are completely brought to an end (asesaṃ uparujjhatī) rather than have no footing (na gādhati). Also, the sutta is about a monk searching for where the four elements end without remainder (aparisesā nirujjhanti) but it is said they have "no footing" (na gādhati) rather than end without remainder (aparisesā nirujjhanti). Therefore, it appears these terms "na gādhati" and "nirujjhanti/uparujjhatī" are not synonymous & cannot be used interchangeably.
rightviewftw wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 6:59 am
Vinnana Anidassanam,
without end,
luminous all around:
With the cessation of [the activity of] consciousness
each is here brought to an end.'"
I think the above translation which purports a consciousness existing (viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ) with the cessation of consciousness (viññāṇassa nirodhena) requires questioning & further examination because the suttas (e.g. MN 38; MN 148; SN 12.2) only teaching a six-fold consciousness that is dependent upon the six-sense media.
rightviewftw wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 6:59 am
Why is normal consciousness an Aggregate, why is it a Heap? Because it is conjoined not disjoined from perception&feeling, in other words It is a convention of language to describe the arising of Sankhara.
Vinnana Anidassanam is found in two suttas spoken to Brahmins; & disparage Brahmanism; and do not even mention Buddhist enlightenment. In the suttas for Buddhists, normal consciousness is co-joined with wisdom (panna) & enlightenment.
Discernment (paññā) & consciousness (viññāṇaṃ) are conjoined, friend, not disjoined. It's not possible, having separated them one from the other, to delineate the difference between them. For what one discerns, that one cognizes. What one cognizes, that one discerns. Yaṃ hāvuso, pajānāti taṃ vijānāti, yaṃ vijānāti taṃ pajānāti.

MN 43
Searching the suttas, these ideas appear to only be found in teachings to non-Buddhists therefore it seems Vinnana Anidassanam is not a superior enlightened consciousness but something taught to Brahmins that have not yet penetrated the Buddha-Dhamma.
saṃyutta nikāya 1

connected discourses with devatas

27. Streams

From where do the streams turn back?
Where does the round no longer revolve?
Where does name-and-form cease,
Stop without remainder?”

“Where water, earth, fire, and air,
Do not gain a footing:
It is from here that the streams turn back,
Here that the round no longer revolves;
Here name-and-form ceases,
Stops without remainder.”

https://suttacentral.net/sn1.27/en/bodhi

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Re: Dhammas

Post by James Tan » Mon Apr 02, 2018 7:34 am

https://suttacentral.net/sa293/en/choong

“Monks, this is to say: All activities compounded things are suffering, and their cessation is nirvāṇa. When the causes are there, suffering arises; when the causes cease, the suffering ceases.

“All routes are cut off, the continuum ceases. The cessation of the continuum is called the ending of suffering.

“O monks! What is it that ceases? It is any remaining suffering. If this ceases, that is coolness, tranquillity, namely the extinction of all attachment, the destruction of craving, the fading away of desire, cessation: nirvāṇa.”


What is continuum ?
:reading:

santa100
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Re: Dhammas

Post by santa100 » Mon Apr 02, 2018 5:20 pm

The continuum of the Aggregates life after life after life.

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anthbrown84
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Re: Dhammas

Post by anthbrown84 » Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:56 pm

Is this concept the same as the mahyana view on emptiness?
"Your job in practise is to know the difference between the heart and the activity of the heart, that is it, it is that simple" Ajahn Tate

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Re: Dhammas

Post by thomaslaw » Sat Apr 07, 2018 3:23 am

anthbrown84 wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:56 pm
Is this concept the same as the mahyana view on emptiness?
What is 'this concept'?

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Re: Dhammas

Post by aflatun » Sat Apr 07, 2018 5:02 am

thomaslaw wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 1:06 am
Hi

Dhammas (conditioned phenomena), e.g. khandhas, Ayatanas, not only should be seen as they really are as anicca (impermanent), dukkha (suffering), anatta (not-self), but also should be seen as they really are as rittaka (void, without reality), as tucchaka (insubstantial), as asaaraka (lacking essence), and as su~n~naka (empty), according to SN 22.95 and SN 35.197 (See Choong Mun-keat, The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, pp. 53-54, 92).

It seems that Dhammas are in fact not real, without reality! :meditate:

Thomas
Thanks for this awesome reference thomaslaw
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."

Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53

"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.

That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."

Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16

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Re: Dhammas

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Apr 08, 2018 5:46 am

anthbrown84 wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:56 pm
Is this concept the same as the mahyana view on emptiness?
Yes. If you refer to the aggregates and spheres, etc, being unsubstantial and unreal.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.

吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

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