Nibbana and nihilism

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
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DooDoot
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Re: Nibbana and nihilism

Post by DooDoot » Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:39 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:38 am
The meaning is clearly all sankharas are gaining footing in the deathless... Your argument is invalid, better call fake sutta
The sutta is not fake. As for the idea "all sankharas are gaining footing in the deathless" this is plainly ridiculous & has zero support in the Pali suttas. There are multitudes of suttas that support the right view of AN 10.58. I can quote them.
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Re: Nibbana and nihilism

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:42 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:35 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:30 am
All the english translators translate it either Deathless or Nibbana, which terms is actually used in Pali i dont even care.
The error in the translation is the translation of 'dhamma' into 'phenomena'. As a result of blind unquestioning adherence to this translation, your mind appeared to concoct (manufacture) the wrong view that:
All phenomena, including samsara, gain footing in the deathless.
Here is Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation, which seems more logical to me:
“‘Friends, (1) all things are rooted in desire. (2) They come into being through attention. (3) They originate from contact. (4) They converge upon feeling. (5) They are headed by concentration. (6) Mindfulness exercises authority over them. (7) Wisdom is their supervisor. (8) Liberation is their core. (9) They culminate in the deathless. (10) Their consummation is nibbāna.’
https://suttacentral.net/an10.58
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Re: Nibbana and nihilism

Post by DooDoot » Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:45 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:42 am
Here is Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation, which seems more logical to me:
Sorry but this translation (influenced by Ajahn Brahmali, as written in the book footnote) appears equally incorrect. The poster named Piotr thoroughly refuted it at this link: https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/al ... esire/4290
Last edited by DooDoot on Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Nibbana and nihilism

Post by rightviewftw » Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:46 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:39 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:38 am
The meaning is clearly all sankharas are gaining footing in the deathless... Your argument is invalid, better call fake sutta
The sutta is not fake. As for the idea "all sankharas are gaining footing in the deathless" this is plainly ridiculous & has zero support in the Pali suttas. There are multitudes of suttas that support the right view of AN 10.58.
lol this is direct sutta words not mine;
“‘Friends, (1) all things are rooted in desire. (2) They come into being through attention. (3) They originate from contact. (4) They converge upon feeling. (5) They are headed by concentration. (6) Mindfulness exercises authority over them. (7) Wisdom is their supervisor. (8) Liberation is their core. (9) They culminate in the deathless. (10) Their consummation is nibbāna.’
"'All phenomena are rooted in desire.[1]

"'All phenomena come into play through attention.

"'All phenomena have contact as their origination.

"'All phenomena have feeling as their meeting place.

"'All phenomena have concentration as their presiding state.

"'All phenomena have mindfulness as their governing principle.

"'All phenomena have discernment as their surpassing state.

"'All phenomena have release as their heartwood.

"'All phenomena gain their footing in the deathless.

"'All phenomena have Unbinding as their final end.'
“‘Friends, (1) all things are rooted in desire. (2) They come into being through attention. (3) They originate from contact. (4) They converge upon feeling. (5) They are headed by concentration. (6) Mindfulness exercises authority over them. (7) Wisdom is their supervisor. (8) Liberation is their core. (9) They culminate in the deathless. (10) Their consummation is nibbāna.’
It is not at all unreasonable to to say that "phenomena/things" are sankharas... All Sankharas are Dhamma, not All Dhammas are Sankhara.
There is absolutely nothing rediculous about it.

If you accept that "All Sankharas are Dhamma but not all Dhamma are Sankharas" then this is 100% legitimate statement if i say that
"all dhammas gain footing in the deathless" implies that all sankharas do as well...
Checkmate or fake sutta?
Last edited by rightviewftw on Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:51 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Nibbana and nihilism

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:48 am

Bhikkhu Bodhi's notes for AN 10.58:
The last two items, amatogadhā sabbe dhammā and nibbānapariyosānā
sabbe dhammā, [(9) They culminate in the deathless. (10) Their consummation is nibbāna.’]seem to be synonymous.

A Chinese parallel, MĀ 113 (at T I 602c 1–16 ), makes the following assertions:
“All things are rooted in desire; all come together in contact; all converge on
feeling; all originate from attention; all are stopped by mindful-
ness (see Sn 1035); all are headed by concentration; wisdom is
above all; liberation is the truth (or core) of all; all have nibbāna
as their consummation.”

Interestingly, MĀ 113 continues (at T I 602c 17–28 ) with a passage that in AN correponds to the next sutta, 10:59, though rather than assure the monk who practices
in such a way one of two fruits, it states that he will definitely
attain arahantship.
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Re: Nibbana and nihilism

Post by DooDoot » Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:49 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:46 am
lol this is direct sutta words not mine;
The Buddha did not teach in English. The Pali word 'dhamma' in the sutta does not mean 'things' or 'phenomena'. The original Commentary (Dīgha Porāṇa Ṭīkā) correctly said the meaning of 'dhamma' here is 'wholesome mental states'. This is confirmed by the following sutta, which uses the exact terminology as AN 10.58 and exclusively refers to skilful dhammas:
And how is discernment the surpassing state? There is the case where the Dhammas I have pointed out to my disciples are entirely for the right ending of suffering & stress. And however I have pointed out Dhammas for my disciples entirely for the right ending of suffering & stress, one has scrutinized them all with discernment.

“This is how discernment is the surpassing state.

“And how is release the heartwood? There is the case where the Dhammas I have pointed out to my disciples are entirely for the right ending of suffering & stress. And however I have pointed out Dhammas for my disciples entirely for the right ending of suffering & stress, one has touched them all through release.

“This is how release is the heartwood.

“And how is mindfulness the governing principle? The mindfulness that ‘I will make complete any training with regard to good conduct that is not yet complete, or I will protect with discernment any training with regard to good conduct that is complete’ is well established right within. The mindfulness that ‘I will make complete any training with regard to the basics of the holy life that is not yet complete, or I will protect with discernment any training with regard to the basics of the holy life that is complete’ is well established right within. The mindfulness that ‘I will scrutinize with discernment any Dhamma that is not yet scrutinized, or I will protect with discernment any Dhamma that has been scrutinized’ is well established right within. The mindfulness that ‘I will touch through release any Dhamma that is not yet touched, or I will protect with discernment any Dhamma that has been touched’ is well established right within.

“This is how mindfulness is the governing principle.

https://suttacentral.net/en/an4.245[/i]
Again, from AN 48.44, which only includes wholesome dhammas:
...the faculty of conviction... persistence... mindfulness... concentration... discernment, when developed & pursued, gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its goal & consummation

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
:alien:
mikenz66 wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:48 am
Bhikkhu Bodhi's notes for AN 10.58:
Footnote 1801 for AN 8.83 (similar discourse).
Last edited by DooDoot on Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:07 am, edited 5 times in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Nibbana and nihilism

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:01 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:49 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:46 am
lol this is direct sutta words not mine;
The Buddha did not teach in English. The Pali word 'dhamma' in the sutta does not mean 'things' or 'phenomena'. The original Commentary (Dīgha Porāṇa Ṭīkā) correctly said the meaning of 'dhamma' here is 'wholesome mental states'.
mikenz66 wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:48 am
Bhikkhu Bodhi's notes for AN 10.58:
Footnote 1801 for AN 8.83 (similar discourse).
OK, for those interested here is the relevant part of AN 8.83, and Bhikkhu Bodhi's comments:
“‘Friends, (1) all things are rooted in desire. (2) They come
into being through attention. (3) They originate from contact. (4)
They converge upon feeling. (5) They are headed by concentra-
tion. (6) Mindfulness exercises authority over them. (7) Wisdom
is their supervisor. (8) Liberation is their core.’ [1801]

[Note 1801]
Brahmāli (in a private communication) offers a fine explana-
tion of this cryptic sutta: “I understand sabbe dhammā to be a
reference to the world of personal experience. The meaning
would then be as follows: All elements of our experience are
rooted in desire (chandamūlakā) in the sense that we exist due to
desire (taking chanda as equivalent to craving). They come into
being through attention (manasikārasambhavā) in the sense that we
only experience what we attend to. They originate from contact
(phassasamudayā) because without contact we don’t experience
anything at all. They converge upon feeling (vedanāsamosaraṇā) in
the sense that feeling is the most important aspect of our expe-
rience, the basic motivating factor in everything we do. They
are headed by concentration (samādhippamukhā) in the sense that
concentration is a controlling faculty (an indriya) whose lead
all elements of our experience must follow. They are under the
authority of mindfulness (satādhipateyyā) because mindfulness is
another controlling faculty which directs us in whatever we do
or experience. All things have wisdom as supervisor (paññuttarā)
because wisdom is the chief of the controlling faculties; wisdom,
more than anything else, controls our experience (the last three
factors are what allow us to get a sense of being in charge of our
lives). That liberation is their core (vimuttisārā), the most excellent
of all things, is self-explanatory.”
:heart:
Mike

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Re: Nibbana and nihilism

Post by rightviewftw » Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:14 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:01 am
[Note 1801]
Brahmāli (in a private communication) offers a fine explana-
tion of this cryptic sutta: “I understand sabbe dhammā to be a
reference to the world of personal experience. The meaning
would then be as follows: All elements of our experience are
rooted in desire (chandamūlakā) in the sense that we exist due to
desire (taking chanda as equivalent to craving). They come into
being through attention (manasikārasambhavā) in the sense that we
only experience what we attend to. They originate from contact
(phassasamudayā) because without contact we don’t experience
anything at all. They converge upon feeling (vedanāsamosaraṇā) in
the sense that feeling is the most important aspect of our expe-
rience, the basic motivating factor in everything we do. They
are headed by concentration (samādhippamukhā) in the sense that
concentration is a controlling faculty (an indriya) whose lead
all elements of our experience must follow. They are under the
authority of mindfulness (satādhipateyyā) because mindfulness is
another controlling faculty which directs us in whatever we do
or experience. All things have wisdom as supervisor (paññuttarā)
because wisdom is the chief of the controlling faculties; wisdom,
more than anything else, controls our experience (the last three
factors are what allow us to get a sense of being in charge of our
lives). That liberation is their core (vimuttisārā), the most excellent
of all things, is self-explanatory.”
:heart:
Mike
thanks for posting very relevant obv.

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Re: Nibbana and nihilism

Post by rightviewftw » Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:17 am

removed abusive speech
Last edited by rightviewftw on Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:25 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Nibbana and nihilism

Post by DooDoot » Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:18 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:14 am
thanks for posting very relevant obv.
Its not relevant to the suttas. Its just another personal opinion. To be relevant to the suttas, it would need to be supported by & linked to other suttas.
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Re: Nibbana and nihilism

Post by DooDoot » Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:23 am

:focus:
DCM wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:53 pm
This is something that has been bothering me for a while. If Nibbana is the cessation of everything, then what’s the aim of the spiritual quest? Nothingness?
Hi DCM. My suggestion is it might be better for you to firmly be grounded the basics. The basics are the Pali suttas appear to refer to two types of Nibbana; where the 1st type is a here-&-now Nibbana that is the 'end of greed, hatred & delusion'; 'cessation of suffering'; 'highest happiness', etc. If the 1st type of here-&-now Nibbana is not attained, the 2nd type cannot be attained therefore it is probably best to focus on what the 1st type of Nibbana is.
This was said by the Lord…

Bhikkhus, there are these two Nibbāna-elements. What are the two? The Nibbāna-element with residue left and the Nibbāna-element with no residue left.

What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbāna-element with residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate and delusion in him that is called the Nibbāna-element with residue left.

Now what, bhikkhus, is the Nibbāna-element with no residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant … completely released through final knowledge. For him, here in this very life, all that is experienced, not being delighted in, will be extinguished. That, bhikkhus, is called the Nibbāna-element with no residue left.

https://suttacentral.net/en/iti44
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Nibbana and nihilism

Post by SarathW » Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:43 am

“‘Friends, (1) all things are rooted in desire. (2) They come
into being through attention. (3) They originate from contact. (4)
They converge upon feeling. (5) They are headed by concentra-
tion. (6) Mindfulness exercises authority over them. (7) Wisdom
is their supervisor. (8) Liberation is their core.’ [1801]
Can someone explain this in simple English using a simple example?

I cant understand it after the following.

They are headed by concentration (samādhippamukhā) in the sense that
concentration is a controlling faculty (an indriya) whose lead
all elements of our experience must follow. They are under the
authority of mindfulness (satādhipateyyā) because mindfulness is
another controlling faculty which directs us in whatever we do
or experience. All things have wisdom as supervisor (paññuttarā)
because wisdom is the chief of the controlling faculties; wisdom,
more than anything else, controls our experience (the last three
factors are what allow us to get a sense of being in charge of our
lives). That liberation is their core (vimuttisārā), the most excellent
of all things, is self-explanatory.”
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Nibbana and nihilism

Post by Lucas Oliveira » Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:30 am

It was following this topic, maybe has something to do
Not sure where they do. Nevertheless, my take on the sutta is that the Buddha is possibly riffing on the two meanings of dhamma, ‘thing / principle’ and ‘teaching’. The wanderers of other sects could be asking about things, and the Buddha, showing his famous reluctance to discuss ontological questions, teaches his students to answer with a clever pun. Seriously, insert ‘teachings’ instead of ‘things’ into the text and you’ll see that it works just fine.

There is a clear example of it in the text of the sutta as well, when the bhikkhus say:

Bhagavaṃ_mūlakā_ no, bhante, dhammā

Our teachings are rooted in the Lord

Since this is a sutta from the Anguttara Nikaya, the nikaya-to-go for preachers specializing on the lay audience, it could be that the Sutta was intended for entertaining the lay audience at the expence of wanderers from other sects.

https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/th ... ess/8517/4
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Re: Nibbana and nihilism

Post by DNS » Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:07 am

Good article, good interview; Bhikkhu Bodhi does a good job, as usual. Notice Wallace tries to get Bodhi to say there is some kind of unconditioned consciousness in nibbana, but Bhikkhu Bodhi refuses to take it that far, noting the Pali suttas don't support that, he does however not accept the extinction view.

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Re: Nibbana and nihilism

Post by cappuccino » Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:22 am

DNS wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:07 am
Good article, good interview; Bhikkhu Bodhi does a good job, as usual. Notice Wallace tries to get Bodhi to say there is some kind of unconditioned consciousness in nibbana, but Bhikkhu Bodhi refuses to take it that far, noting the Pali suttas don't support that, he does however not accept the extinction view.
Your comments are incompatible.

As you've rejected and embraced annihilationism.

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