Nibbana and nihilism

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
DCM
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Nibbana and nihilism

Post by DCM » Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:53 pm

Here is an excerpt from a discussion between B. Bodhi and A. Wallace, titled ‘What Happens to an Arahant at Death?’.
http://www.sbinstitute.com/sites/defaul ... evised.pdf

Bodhi is here commenting on ‘Some modern interpreters—including a number of prominent Western bhikkhus’.
BB: This isn’t my position, but their position. They would say that annihilationism is the doctrine that there is a substantial self that perishes at death, but with “right view” one sees that it is only the procession of self-less aggregates that ceases and beyond this there is nothing. For them, nibbāna is total extinction. It seems to me that on this position, what happens to the arahant at the time of death is exactly what happens to every living being at the time of death from the perspective of philosophical materialism. The only difference would be that the Buddhist posits rebirth for those who are non-arahants while the materialist posits “final nibbāna” for everyone.

This is something that has been bothering me for a while. If Nibbana is the cessation of everything, then what’s the result of the spiritual quest? Existence?

I’m insterested to hear from people who hold this view in bold, and unless your an Ariya and have experienced Nibbana, are you taking what’s said in the Nikayas on faith alone?

A philosophical materialist would say there is no difference between what happens at an Arahants death and what happens to every other living being at death. Annihilism.

Hopefully this won’t turn into ‘Bodhi is now Mahayana’, etc and I am not interested in that.
Last edited by DCM on Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: Nibbana and nihilism

Post by Lucas Oliveira » Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:06 pm

The Fish and the Turtle (Is Nibbana Nothingness?)

viewtopic.php?f=21&t=31162



:anjali:
I participate in this forum using Google Translator. http://translate.google.com.br

http://www.acessoaoinsight.net/

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rightviewftw
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Re: Nibbana and nihilism

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:13 pm

DCM wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:53 pm
and unless your an Ariya and have experienced Nibbana, are you taking what’s said in the Nikayas on faith alone?
Imho, You should be careful because i imagine a lot of people will adhere to doctrines of Nibbana in the here and now or similar and will claim Ariyahood on that ground along with Complete Annihilation of the system for Parinibbana.

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cappuccino
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Re: Nibbana and nihilism

Post by cappuccino » Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:37 pm

DCM wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:53 pm
This is something that has been bothering me for a while. If Nibbana is the cessation of everything, then what’s the aim of the spiritual quest? Nothingness?

Nothingness is a jhana, a realm of existence, not Nirvana.

Annihilation is nothing, not Nirvana.

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rightviewftw
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Re: Nibbana and nihilism

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:10 pm

At
the same time, unless my memory misleads me, there is a statement in the Pāli canon in which
the Buddha states that without nibbāna there would be no saṃsāra. Can you identify that
statement for me? Some might interpret that as implying that nibbāna does indeed have a
cosmological function, though it does not give rise to a creator God.

BB: I don’t recall any such statement in the Pali Canon, and it would be inconsistent with
everything else that is said there.
i can recall one
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"'All phenomena are rooted in desire.[1]

"'All phenomena come into play through attention.

"'All phenomena have contact as their origination.

"'All phenomena have feeling as their meeting place.

"'All phenomena have concentration as their presiding state.

"'All phenomena have mindfulness as their governing principle.

"'All phenomena have discernment as their surpassing state.

"'All phenomena have release as their heartwood.

"'All phenomena gain their footing in the deathless.
It is very awesome what the Tathagata did there but it is hard to understand for people not trained in general semantics.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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cappuccino
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Re: Nibbana and nihilism

Post by cappuccino » Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:24 pm

BAW: there is a statement in the Pāli canon in which the Buddha states that without nibbāna there would be no saṃsāra.

BB: I don’t recall any such statement in the Pali Canon, and it would be inconsistent with everything else that is said there. Perhaps you are thinking of the well known passage in the Udāna §73, which says that “if there were no unborn, unbecome, unmade, unconditioned, no release from what is born, come to be, made, and conditioned would be discerned here, but because there is an unborn (etc.) a release from what is born (etc.) is discerned here

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rightviewftw
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Re: Nibbana and nihilism

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:26 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:24 pm
Your point?

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cappuccino
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Re: Nibbana and nihilism

Post by cappuccino » Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:30 pm

there is an unborn

a release from what is born

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rightviewftw
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Re: Nibbana and nihilism

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:34 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:30 pm
there is an unborn

a release from what is born
Actually nevermind im too tired to do this and dont really care that much .

I thought u were commenting on what i wrote in regards to Venerable Bhikkhu Bodhi's seemingly assumed position of ;

"There are no passages which state that without nibbāna there would be no saṃsāra and that such a statement would be inconsistent with
everything else that is said in the Pali Canon."

A position i challenged with Mula Sutta.
"'All phenomena are rooted in desire.[1]

"'All phenomena come into play through attention.

"'All phenomena have contact as their origination.

"'All phenomena have feeling as their meeting place.

"'All phenomena have concentration as their presiding state.

"'All phenomena have mindfulness as their governing principle.

"'All phenomena have discernment as their surpassing state.

"'All phenomena have release as their heartwood.

"'All phenomena gain their footing in the deathless.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:45 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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rightviewftw
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Re: Nibbana and nihilism

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:50 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:30 pm
there is an unborn

a release from what is born
Anyway if u care i was gonna ask you what exactly you mean by IS to see if you would go on to say that Unborn exists in either one of the spheres of existence and if not on what grounds you say that it IS.
Then i would re-evaluate and/or make a statement.

I am not going to tho, it is late, i am tired, i was not even supposed to be posting here.

It is good training but quite taxing.

If you want we can continue tomorrow in Classical Theravada Sub, ie this thread or a new one;
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=31296

not here because i made resolution to abstain from posting in random threads to avoid conflict.

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DooDoot
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Re: Nibbana and nihilism

Post by DooDoot » Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:19 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:34 pm
"'All phenomena gain their footing in the deathless.
This is obviously a mistranslation (i.e., wrong view) because a phenomena such as craving obviously does not gain a footing in the deathless. Since the Deathless is defined as the destruction of lust, hatred & delusion, how can the phenomena of lust, hatred & delusion gain a footing in the Deathless?
The destruction of lust, the destruction of hatred, the destruction of delusion: this is called the Deathless.

https://suttacentral.net/en/sn45.7
I suggest to search the suttas for the phrase "footing in the deathless" & I imagine the only teachings that will be found are about 'skilful dhammas'.
Sariputta, do you take it on conviction that the faculty of conviction, when developed & pursued, gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its goal & consummation?

Monks, these seven perceptions, when developed & pursued, are of great fruit, of great benefit. They gain a footing in the Deathless, have the Deathless as their final end. Which seven? The perception of the unattractive, the perception of death, the perception of loathsomeness in food, the perception of distaste for every....

Monks, these nine perceptions, when developed & pursued, are of great fruit, of great benefit. They gain a footing in the deathless and have the deathless as their final end. Which nine? "The perception of unattractiveness (of the body), the perception of death, the perception of the foulness in food, the perception of ...

Monks, mindfulness of death — when developed & pursued — is of great fruit & great benefit. It gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its final end. And how is mindfulness of death ...

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/search_ ... &sa=Search
Last edited by DooDoot on Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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DooDoot
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Re: Nibbana and nihilism

Post by DooDoot » Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:25 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:25 am
it is always either a mistranslation or a fake sutta with you lol gn
Its not fake. Its a mistranslation. The study of Dhamma is not about rigid adherence to translations.


The translation is wrong. I proved it as wrong.
Never ordained... not an anonymous-online-bhikkhu or ex-bhikkhu...

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rightviewftw
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Re: Nibbana and nihilism

Post by rightviewftw » Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:30 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:25 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:25 am
it is always either a mistranslation or a fake sutta with you lol gn
Its not fake. Its a mistranslation. The study of Dhamma is not about rigid adherence to translations.


The translation is wrong. I proved it as wrong.
All the english translators translate it either Deathless or Nibbana, which terms is actually used in Pali i dont even care.

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DooDoot
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Re: Nibbana and nihilism

Post by DooDoot » Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:35 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:30 am
All the english translators translate it either Deathless or Nibbana, which terms is actually used in Pali i dont even care.
The error in the translation is the translation of 'dhamma' into 'phenomena'. As a result of blind unquestioning adherence to this translation, your mind appeared to concoct (manufacture) the wrong view that:
All phenomena, including samsara, gain footing in the deathless.
Last edited by DooDoot on Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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rightviewftw
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Re: Nibbana and nihilism

Post by rightviewftw » Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:38 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:35 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:30 am
All the english translators translate it either Deathless or Nibbana, which terms is actually used in Pali i dont even care.
The error in the translation is the translation of 'dhamma' into 'phenomena'. As a result of blind unquestioning adherence to this translation, your mind concocted the wrong view that:
All phenomena, including samsara, gain their footing in the deathless.
The meaning is clearly all sankharas are gaining footing in the deathless... Your argument is invalid

What it is that is gaining footing is so easily defined there by inference or cross reference, it is obvious af...
Last edited by rightviewftw on Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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