Does the cosmology in the EBTs teach a Flat Earth?

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dylanj
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Does the cosmology in the EBTs teach a Flat Earth?

Post by dylanj » Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:10 am

I'd really like as substantial of an analysis as possible, but will take what I can get, & please try to avoid constructing a "no" answer based off of the assumption that this must not be the case.
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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dylanj
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Re: Does the cosmology in the EBTs teach a Flat Earth?

Post by dylanj » Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:19 am

bump
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: Does the cosmology in the EBTs teach a Flat Earth?

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:20 am

53. "There are, bhikkhus, some recluses and brahmins who are extensionists,[8] and who on four grounds proclaim the world to be finite or infinite. And owing to what, with reference to what, do these honorable recluses and brahmins proclaim their views?

54. "In the first case, bhikkhus, a certain recluse or a brahmin, by means of ardor, endeavor, application, diligence, and right reflection, attains to such a degree of mental concentration that with his mind thus concentrated he abides perceiving the world as finite. He speaks thus: 'The world is finite and bounded. What is the reason? Because I attain to such concentration of mind that I abide perceiving the world as finite. For that reason I know this: the world is finite and bounded.'

"This, bhikkhus, is the first case.

55. "In the second case, owing to what, with reference to what, are some honorable recluses and brahmins extensionists, proclaiming the world to be finite or infinite?

"Herein, bhikkhus, a certain recluse or a brahmin, by means of ardor, endeavor, application, diligence, and right reflection, attains to such a degree of mental concentration that with his mind thus concentrated he abides perceiving the world as infinite. He speaks thus: 'The world is infinite and boundless. Those recluses and brahmins who declare the world to be finite and bounded speak falsely. The world is infinite and boundless. What is the reason? Because I attain to such concentration of mind that I abide perceiving the world as infinite. For this reason I know this: the world is infinite and boundless.'

"This, bhikkhus, is the second case.

56. "In the third case, owing to what, with reference to what, are some honorable recluses and brahmins extensionists, proclaiming the world to be finite or infinite?

"Herein, bhikkhus, a certain recluse or a brahmin, by means of ardor, endeavor, application, diligence, and right reflection, attains to such a degree of mental concentration that with his mind thus concentrated he abides perceiving the world as finite in the upward and downward directions, but as infinite across. He speaks thus: 'The world is both finite and infinite. Those recluses and brahmins who declare the world to be finite and bounded speak falsely; and those recluses and brahmins who declare the world to be infinite and boundless also speak falsely. The world is both finite and infinite. For what reason? Because I attain to such concentration of mind that I abide perceiving the world as finite in the upward and downward directions, but as infinite across. For this reason I know this: the world is both finite and infinite.'

"This, bhikkhus, is the third case.

57. "In the fourth case, owing to what, with reference to what, are some honorable recluses and brahmins extensionists, proclaiming the world to be finite or infinite?

"Herein, bhikkhus, a certain recluse or a brahmin is a rationalist, an investigator. He declares his view — hammered out by reason, deduced from his investigations, following his own flight of thought — thus: 'The world is neither finite nor infinite. Those recluses and brahmins who declare the world to be finite and bounded, those who declare it to be infinite and boundless, and those who declare it to be both finite and infinite — all these speak falsely. The world is neither finite nor infinite.'

"This, bhikkhus, is the fourth case.

58. "It is on these four grounds, bhikkhus, that those recluses and brahmins, who are extensionists proclaim the world to be finite of infinite. Whatever recluses or brahmins there may be who proclaim the world to be finite or infinite, all of them do so on these four grounds or on a certain one of them. Outside of these there is none.

59 – 60. "This, bhikkhus, the Tathāgata understands... (repeat ĪĪ 51–52 in full)... and it is concerning these that those who would praise the Tathāgata in accordance with reality would speak.

obo.genaud.net/dhamma-vinaya/ati/dn/dn.01.bodh.ati.htm

“ Well then , lord, if—having other views, other practices, other satisfactions, other aims, other teachers—it’s hard for me to know whether perception is a person’s self or if perception is one thing and self another, then is it the case that the cosmos is eternal, that only this is true and anything otherwise is worthless?”

“Potthapada, I haven’t expounded that the cosmos is eternal, that only this is true and anything otherwise is worthless.”

“Then is it the case that the cosmos is not eternal, that only this is true and anything otherwise is worthless?”

“Potthapada, I haven’t expounded that the cosmos is not eternal, that only this is true and anything otherwise is worthless.”

“Then is it the case that the cosmos is finite … the cosmos is infinite … the soul & the body are the same … the soul is one thing and the body another … after death a Tathagata exists … after death a Tathagata does not exist … after death a Tathagata both exists & does not exist … after death a Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist, that only this is true and anything otherwise is worthless?”

“Potthapada, I haven’t expounded that after death a Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist, that only this is true and anything otherwise is worthless.”

“But why hasn’t the Blessed One expounded these things?”

“Because they are not conducive to the goal, are not conducive to the Dhamma, are not basic to the holy life. They don’t lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding. That’s why I haven’t expounded them.”

“And what has the Blessed One expounded?”

“I have expounded that, ‘This is stress’ … ‘This is the origination of stress’ … ‘This is the cessation of stress’ … ‘This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.’

“And why has the Blessed One expounded these things?”

“Because they are conducive to the goal, conducive to the Dhamma, and basic to the holy life. They lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding. That’s why I have expounded them.”

https://suttacentral.net/en/dn9 :namaste:
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Does the cosmology in the EBTs teach a Flat Earth?

Post by Coëmgenu » Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:58 pm

Depends on how literally one interprets Sumeru-based cosmology. A cosmic mountain is not sustained by a spherical base.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः

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dylanj
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Re: Does the cosmology in the EBTs teach a Flat Earth?

Post by dylanj » Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:06 pm

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:20 am
53. "There are, bhikkhus, some recluses and brahmins who are extensionists,[8] and who on four grounds proclaim the world to be finite or infinite. And owing to what, with reference to what, do these honorable recluses and brahmins proclaim their views?

54. "In the first case, bhikkhus, a certain recluse or a brahmin, by means of ardor, endeavor, application, diligence, and right reflection, attains to such a degree of mental concentration that with his mind thus concentrated he abides perceiving the world as finite. He speaks thus: 'The world is finite and bounded. What is the reason? Because I attain to such concentration of mind that I abide perceiving the world as finite. For that reason I know this: the world is finite and bounded.'

"This, bhikkhus, is the first case.

55. "In the second case, owing to what, with reference to what, are some honorable recluses and brahmins extensionists, proclaiming the world to be finite or infinite?

"Herein, bhikkhus, a certain recluse or a brahmin, by means of ardor, endeavor, application, diligence, and right reflection, attains to such a degree of mental concentration that with his mind thus concentrated he abides perceiving the world as infinite. He speaks thus: 'The world is infinite and boundless. Those recluses and brahmins who declare the world to be finite and bounded speak falsely. The world is infinite and boundless. What is the reason? Because I attain to such concentration of mind that I abide perceiving the world as infinite. For this reason I know this: the world is infinite and boundless.'

"This, bhikkhus, is the second case.

56. "In the third case, owing to what, with reference to what, are some honorable recluses and brahmins extensionists, proclaiming the world to be finite or infinite?

"Herein, bhikkhus, a certain recluse or a brahmin, by means of ardor, endeavor, application, diligence, and right reflection, attains to such a degree of mental concentration that with his mind thus concentrated he abides perceiving the world as finite in the upward and downward directions, but as infinite across. He speaks thus: 'The world is both finite and infinite. Those recluses and brahmins who declare the world to be finite and bounded speak falsely; and those recluses and brahmins who declare the world to be infinite and boundless also speak falsely. The world is both finite and infinite. For what reason? Because I attain to such concentration of mind that I abide perceiving the world as finite in the upward and downward directions, but as infinite across. For this reason I know this: the world is both finite and infinite.'

"This, bhikkhus, is the third case.

57. "In the fourth case, owing to what, with reference to what, are some honorable recluses and brahmins extensionists, proclaiming the world to be finite or infinite?

"Herein, bhikkhus, a certain recluse or a brahmin is a rationalist, an investigator. He declares his view — hammered out by reason, deduced from his investigations, following his own flight of thought — thus: 'The world is neither finite nor infinite. Those recluses and brahmins who declare the world to be finite and bounded, those who declare it to be infinite and boundless, and those who declare it to be both finite and infinite — all these speak falsely. The world is neither finite nor infinite.'

"This, bhikkhus, is the fourth case.

58. "It is on these four grounds, bhikkhus, that those recluses and brahmins, who are extensionists proclaim the world to be finite of infinite. Whatever recluses or brahmins there may be who proclaim the world to be finite or infinite, all of them do so on these four grounds or on a certain one of them. Outside of these there is none.

59 – 60. "This, bhikkhus, the Tathāgata understands... (repeat ĪĪ 51–52 in full)... and it is concerning these that those who would praise the Tathāgata in accordance with reality would speak.

obo.genaud.net/dhamma-vinaya/ati/dn/dn.01.bodh.ati.htm

“ Well then , lord, if—having other views, other practices, other satisfactions, other aims, other teachers—it’s hard for me to know whether perception is a person’s self or if perception is one thing and self another, then is it the case that the cosmos is eternal, that only this is true and anything otherwise is worthless?”

“Potthapada, I haven’t expounded that the cosmos is eternal, that only this is true and anything otherwise is worthless.”

“Then is it the case that the cosmos is not eternal, that only this is true and anything otherwise is worthless?”

“Potthapada, I haven’t expounded that the cosmos is not eternal, that only this is true and anything otherwise is worthless.”

“Then is it the case that the cosmos is finite … the cosmos is infinite … the soul & the body are the same … the soul is one thing and the body another … after death a Tathagata exists … after death a Tathagata does not exist … after death a Tathagata both exists & does not exist … after death a Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist, that only this is true and anything otherwise is worthless?”

“Potthapada, I haven’t expounded that after death a Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist, that only this is true and anything otherwise is worthless.”

“But why hasn’t the Blessed One expounded these things?”

“Because they are not conducive to the goal, are not conducive to the Dhamma, are not basic to the holy life. They don’t lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding. That’s why I haven’t expounded them.”

“And what has the Blessed One expounded?”

“I have expounded that, ‘This is stress’ … ‘This is the origination of stress’ … ‘This is the cessation of stress’ … ‘This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.’

“And why has the Blessed One expounded these things?”

“Because they are conducive to the goal, conducive to the Dhamma, and basic to the holy life. They lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding. That’s why I have expounded them.”

https://suttacentral.net/en/dn9 :namaste:
:offtopic:
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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Re: Does the cosmology in the EBTs teach a Flat Earth?

Post by Garrib » Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:49 am

good question- I don't think I've ever seen anything like that in the Nikayas. I'm pretty sure I have seen this alleged, however.

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Does the cosmology in the EBTs teach a Flat Earth?

Post by Coëmgenu » Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:05 am

dylanj wrote: :offtopic:
Sumeru has 7ish names in Pali. This is very pertinent to your OP. Not only is that cosmology flat-earth, it is geocentric. Look up references to Sumeru in SN, MN, DN, Ja, Thag, etc.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः

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dylanj
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Re: Does the cosmology in the EBTs teach a Flat Earth?

Post by dylanj » Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:10 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:05 am
dylanj wrote: :offtopic:
Sumeru has 7ish names in Pali. This is very pertinent to your OP. Not only is that cosmology flat-earth, it is egocentric. Look up references to Sumeru in SN, MN, DN, Ja, Thag, etc.
Can you explain the relevance of the quote, which is on invalid cosmological questions, to the OP, which is on those that are in fact answered in the sutta?

Okay thanks for the suggestions.
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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dylanj
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Re: Does the cosmology in the EBTs teach a Flat Earth?

Post by dylanj » Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:11 am

Also, if you are suggesting that these cosmological references are inauthentic please state so straightforwardly. I can't tell as is.
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Does the cosmology in the EBTs teach a Flat Earth?

Post by Coëmgenu » Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:20 pm

They are in the oldest layers of Buddhist scripture, like the 32 marks. That is why EBT studies isn't as simple as saying SN, AN, and MN are old, DN is newer, and anything beyond that is inauthentic. It's not that simple at all.

You'll need to use your own discernment as to if believing the earth is on a cosmic mountain is a hindrance. Most Indian Buddhists of the distant past will have believed in Sumeru, does this effect their practice?

Look around you, are we on 4 landmasses surrounding a giant mountain? Or are we on a planet?

Is believing in a cosmic mountain the same as declaring the world, infinite, finite, bound, unbound, etc.?

References to Sumeru, although there in the early literature, pop up in odd little places. Sumeru is never the subject of a major discourse from the Buddha.

Since we've already had a quote from the Net of Brahma, perhaps this one suits my contributions to this dialogue:

endless equivocators resort to evasive statements and to endless equivocation when questioned about this or that point.

!! :spy:
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः

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