why is authenticity under-valued

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
User avatar
Dhammarakkhito
Posts: 1115
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:31 am
Contact:

why is authenticity under-valued

Post by Dhammarakkhito »

let's talk about it
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27848
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: why is authenticity under-valued

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Dhammarakkhito,
Dhammarakkhito wrote: Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:59 am let's talk about it
Authenticity in terms of Buddhist texts and their traceability back to authentic sources, or authenticity as a personal attribute?

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
Dhammarakkhito
Posts: 1115
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:31 am
Contact:

Re: why is authenticity under-valued

Post by Dhammarakkhito »

caring about what the buddha said, what he didn't say, how we might know such things, whether we should base our buddhism off of early sayings and to what extent, etc
me personally i wouldnt have been buddhist if i hadn't delved into the ebts. if any worldling could come up with something profound as dhamma, why couldn't i? it's not worldly
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27848
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: why is authenticity under-valued

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Dhammarakkhito,

I guess that could only be meaningfully answered on a person-by-person basis, as what each individual values, and how much they value it, is really up to them.

For me, I'm interested in what the Buddha himself taught... not just what "some guy" reckons about Buddhism, or what some meditation instructor believes. To that end, the suttas are front and centre in that endeavour.

That said, different people see matters differently, and place emphasis on other perspectives, and that doesn't make their pursuit of the path any less sincere or authentic. After all, as the suttas say, the Noble Eightfold Path itself is fabricated, albeit the best of all fabricated things!

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 17187
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: why is authenticity under-valued

Post by DNS »

I like the EBTs too and naturally inclined toward further study of EBTs even before I met a great monk/kalyana-mitta who also focused on the EBTs.

However, the Suttas still need to be interpreted as not all are meant to be understood as 'fully drawn out' and some teachings are 'inferred' as noted in AN 2.25 thus, some of the controversies and debates we see here and elsewhere.
User avatar
Kim OHara
Posts: 5584
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:47 am
Location: North Queensland, Australia

Re: why is authenticity under-valued

Post by Kim OHara »

DNS wrote: Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:46 am I like the EBTs too and naturally inclined toward further study of EBTs even before I met a great monk/kalyana-mitta who also focused on the EBTs.

However, the Suttas still need to be interpreted as not all are meant to be understood as 'fully drawn out' and some teachings are 'inferred' as noted in AN 2.25 thus, some of the controversies and debates we see here and elsewhere.
:goodpost:

There is also the ongoing research and debate about which texts, or which versions of them, are "authentic". That sets a limit to how far the quest for authenticity can usefully be pursued.

:namaste:
Kim
User avatar
Dhammarakkhito
Posts: 1115
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:31 am
Contact:

Re: why is authenticity under-valued

Post by Dhammarakkhito »

"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 12032
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: why is authenticity under-valued

Post by DooDoot »

Dhammarakkhito wrote: Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:16 am caring about what the buddha said...
Many people like to make this claim but generally they don't really know what the Buddha said. Our personal interpretations of translations or Pali are not necessarily what the Buddha said.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
User avatar
Dhammarakkhito
Posts: 1115
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:31 am
Contact:

Re: why is authenticity under-valued

Post by Dhammarakkhito »

ok, what i said is a little bit different, but what you've said is valid. i care about what the buddha said and think we do have considerable evidence that what is in the ebts is real buddhavacana. it's apparent reading the texts usually there is a liberating quality. i wouldn't throw my hands up in the air and say 'well, the monks played telephone games for 500 years, who knows what was really said'. not possible to get it perfectly, but the essential teaching is there
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught
binocular
Posts: 8292
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: why is authenticity under-valued

Post by binocular »

Dhammarakkhito wrote: Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:04 amnot possible to get it perfectly, but the essential teaching is there
How can anyone possibly know that?
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 12032
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: why is authenticity under-valued

Post by DooDoot »

Dhammarakkhito wrote: Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:04 amit's apparent reading the texts usually there is a liberating quality.
I agree this might be the criteria. However, at least for me, not all texts & nor all translations have a liberating quality.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
Saengnapha
Posts: 1350
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:17 am

Re: why is authenticity under-valued

Post by Saengnapha »

DooDoot wrote: Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:30 am
Dhammarakkhito wrote: Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:16 am caring about what the buddha said...
Many people like to make this claim but generally they don't really know what the Buddha said. Our personal interpretations of translations or Pali are not necessarily what the Buddha said.
If that is the case, why do you often quote suttas if you don't know that that was really what the Buddha said? And, why is it so important that one says something that the Buddha said versus your grandmother, for example? Does it really matter if we give authenticity any senior place at the table? What does it all have to do with our own experience in this moment?
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 12032
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: why is authenticity under-valued

Post by DooDoot »

Saengnapha wrote: Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:07 amIf that is the case, why do you often quote suttas if you don't know that that was really what the Buddha said?
So I can defeat you in an argument ;). Seriously, generally I refer to the "suttas" rather than the "Buddha". Importantly, I think what I quote can be meditatively verified as leading to liberation. :geek:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
DCM
Posts: 89
Joined: Sat May 27, 2017 7:48 pm
Location: Wales, UK

Re: why is authenticity under-valued

Post by DCM »

Okay, so if I asked, "what are the EBT's", would we get a general agreement or several different answers?
binocular
Posts: 8292
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: why is authenticity under-valued

Post by binocular »

Saengnapha wrote: Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:07 amIf that is the case, why do you often quote suttas if you don't know that that was really what the Buddha said?
To see what happens when I do so.
And, why is it so important that one says something that the Buddha said versus your grandmother, for example?
Naming one's references isn't necessarily an appeal to authority. Sometimes it's just about crediting the source, as opposed to presenting someone else's words as one's own (plagiarizing).
Does it really matter if we give authenticity any senior place at the table? What does it all have to do with our own experience in this moment?
When one's experience in this moment is that one doesn't know the final solution, one strategy is to look up to others for whom one has some reason to consider that they might have the solution.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
Post Reply