why is authenticity under-valued

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
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Dhammarakkhito
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why is authenticity under-valued

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:59 am

let's talk about it
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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retrofuturist
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Re: why is authenticity under-valued

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:03 am

Greetings Dhammarakkhito,
Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:59 am
let's talk about it
Authenticity in terms of Buddhist texts and their traceability back to authentic sources, or authenticity as a personal attribute?

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: why is authenticity under-valued

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:16 am

caring about what the buddha said, what he didn't say, how we might know such things, whether we should base our buddhism off of early sayings and to what extent, etc
me personally i wouldnt have been buddhist if i hadn't delved into the ebts. if any worldling could come up with something profound as dhamma, why couldn't i? it's not worldly
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught

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retrofuturist
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Re: why is authenticity under-valued

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:29 am

Greetings Dhammarakkhito,

I guess that could only be meaningfully answered on a person-by-person basis, as what each individual values, and how much they value it, is really up to them.

For me, I'm interested in what the Buddha himself taught... not just what "some guy" reckons about Buddhism, or what some meditation instructor believes. To that end, the suttas are front and centre in that endeavour.

That said, different people see matters differently, and place emphasis on other perspectives, and that doesn't make their pursuit of the path any less sincere or authentic. After all, as the suttas say, the Noble Eightfold Path itself is fabricated, albeit the best of all fabricated things!

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: why is authenticity under-valued

Post by DNS » Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:46 am

I like the EBTs too and naturally inclined toward further study of EBTs even before I met a great monk/kalyana-mitta who also focused on the EBTs.

However, the Suttas still need to be interpreted as not all are meant to be understood as 'fully drawn out' and some teachings are 'inferred' as noted in AN 2.25 thus, some of the controversies and debates we see here and elsewhere.

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Re: why is authenticity under-valued

Post by Kim OHara » Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:34 am

DNS wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:46 am
I like the EBTs too and naturally inclined toward further study of EBTs even before I met a great monk/kalyana-mitta who also focused on the EBTs.

However, the Suttas still need to be interpreted as not all are meant to be understood as 'fully drawn out' and some teachings are 'inferred' as noted in AN 2.25 thus, some of the controversies and debates we see here and elsewhere.
:goodpost:

There is also the ongoing research and debate about which texts, or which versions of them, are "authentic". That sets a limit to how far the quest for authenticity can usefully be pursued.

:namaste:
Kim

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Re: why is authenticity under-valued

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:52 am

"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught

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Re: why is authenticity under-valued

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:30 am

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:16 am
caring about what the buddha said...
Many people like to make this claim but generally they don't really know what the Buddha said. Our personal interpretations of translations or Pali are not necessarily what the Buddha said.

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Re: why is authenticity under-valued

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:04 am

ok, what i said is a little bit different, but what you've said is valid. i care about what the buddha said and think we do have considerable evidence that what is in the ebts is real buddhavacana. it's apparent reading the texts usually there is a liberating quality. i wouldn't throw my hands up in the air and say 'well, the monks played telephone games for 500 years, who knows what was really said'. not possible to get it perfectly, but the essential teaching is there
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught

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Re: why is authenticity under-valued

Post by binocular » Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:19 pm

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:04 am
not possible to get it perfectly, but the essential teaching is there
How can anyone possibly know that?
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Re: why is authenticity under-valued

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:48 pm

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:04 am
it's apparent reading the texts usually there is a liberating quality.
I agree this might be the criteria. However, at least for me, not all texts & nor all translations have a liberating quality.

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Re: why is authenticity under-valued

Post by Saengnapha » Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:07 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:30 am
Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:16 am
caring about what the buddha said...
Many people like to make this claim but generally they don't really know what the Buddha said. Our personal interpretations of translations or Pali are not necessarily what the Buddha said.
If that is the case, why do you often quote suttas if you don't know that that was really what the Buddha said? And, why is it so important that one says something that the Buddha said versus your grandmother, for example? Does it really matter if we give authenticity any senior place at the table? What does it all have to do with our own experience in this moment?

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Re: why is authenticity under-valued

Post by DooDoot » Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:48 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:07 am
If that is the case, why do you often quote suttas if you don't know that that was really what the Buddha said?
So I can defeat you in an argument ;). Seriously, generally I refer to the "suttas" rather than the "Buddha". Importantly, I think what I quote can be meditatively verified as leading to liberation. :geek:

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Re: why is authenticity under-valued

Post by DCM » Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:59 am

Okay, so if I asked, "what are the EBT's", would we get a general agreement or several different answers?

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Re: why is authenticity under-valued

Post by binocular » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:51 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:07 am
If that is the case, why do you often quote suttas if you don't know that that was really what the Buddha said?
To see what happens when I do so.
And, why is it so important that one says something that the Buddha said versus your grandmother, for example?
Naming one's references isn't necessarily an appeal to authority. Sometimes it's just about crediting the source, as opposed to presenting someone else's words as one's own (plagiarizing).
Does it really matter if we give authenticity any senior place at the table? What does it all have to do with our own experience in this moment?
When one's experience in this moment is that one doesn't know the final solution, one strategy is to look up to others for whom one has some reason to consider that they might have the solution.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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