Are there any EBT suttas not found in the paali collection?

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Are there any EBT suttas not found in the paali collection?

Post by Coëmgenu »

thomaslaw wrote: Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:20 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:12 am
thomaslaw wrote: Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:27 pm

Good on you! :clap:
You're quite literally citing me a footnote from a completely different section of the book. Good for me for giving people something to read I suppose?
' ... from a completely different section of the book' ??? :rofl: :reading:
Yes. You originally directed me to page 35 of the text. Poor communication. I eventually found a footnote that resembled what you had given me at 152, but the Choong text does not address anything I brought up that requires citation, and footnote 11 there is appended to this:

The corresponding SA 296 is different in expression; for example, it reverses the sequence, beginning with "conditioned by ignorance are activities". However, the message is the same in both versions.]

I already typed this out but here I am doing it again.

This is not relevant to anything discussed thus far. This is not relevant to dharmanairātmyatā --> dharmaniyāmatā. This is not Choong citing his alteration. Nor is it citing an alteration of Ven Yin Shun.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
thomaslaw
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Re: Are there any EBT suttas not found in the paali collection?

Post by thomaslaw »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:29 am
thomaslaw wrote: Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:20 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:12 am

You're quite literally citing me a footnote from a completely different section of the book. Good for me for giving people something to read I suppose?
' ... from a completely different section of the book' ??? :rofl: :reading:
Yes. You originally directed me to page 35 of the text. Poor communication. I eventually found a footnote that resembled what you had given me at 152, but the Choong text does not address anything I brought up that requires citation, and footnote 11 there is appended to this:

The corresponding SA 296 is different in expression; for example, it reverses the sequence, beginning with "conditioned by ignorance are activities". However, the message is the same in both versions.]

I already typed this out but here I am doing it again.

This is not relevant to anything discussed thus far. This is not relevant to dharmanairātmyatā --> dharmaniyāmatā. This is not Choong citing his alteration. Nor is it citing an alteration of Yin Shun.
:jumping: :juggling: I see!

Choong in fact follows both Yinshun (CSA ii, p. 35) and the Sanskrit text. :clap:
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Are there any EBT suttas not found in the paali collection?

Post by Coëmgenu »

thomaslaw wrote: Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:33 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:29 am
thomaslaw wrote: Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:20 am

' ... from a completely different section of the book' ??? :rofl: :reading:
Yes. You originally directed me to page 35 of the text. Poor communication. I eventually found a footnote that resembled what you had given me at 152, but the Choong text does not address anything I brought up that requires citation, and footnote 11 there is appended to this:

The corresponding SA 296 is different in expression; for example, it reverses the sequence, beginning with "conditioned by ignorance are activities". However, the message is the same in both versions.

I already typed this out but here I am doing it again.

This is not relevant to anything discussed thus far. This is not relevant to dharmanairātmyatā --> dharmaniyāmatā. This is not Choong citing his alteration. Nor is it citing an alteration of Yin Shun.
:jumping: :juggling: I see!

Choong in fact follows both Yinshun (CSA ii, p. 35) and the Sanskrit text. :clap:
He may follow it but he does not cite the differences between this scholarly reconstruction and the traditional Buddhavacana. That has been my point all along.

He remembers to cite the alteration on page 45 of this text of his.

I think he simply forgot to cite it properly in the other text. People make mistakes. I'm glad I managed to find a citation of alteration from him. It had always bothered me that the alteration was not cited in the original text discussed.

That being said, the citation is missing in Fundamentals of Early Buddhism. I've already discussed how the text for footnote 11 does not address the topic at hand. Furthermore, footnote 11 in Fundamentals is a citation of a different section of Ven Yin Shun's CSA than his direct citation addressing specifically dharmanairātmyatā --> dharmaniyāmatā in the Pratyayasūtra in his Annotated Translation of Sutras from the Chinese Samyuktagama relevant to the Early Buddhist Teachings on Emptiness and the Middle Way.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
thomaslaw
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Re: Are there any EBT suttas not found in the paali collection?

Post by thomaslaw »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:32 am
thomaslaw wrote: Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:33 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:29 am

Yes. You originally directed me to page 35 of the text. Poor communication. I eventually found a footnote that resembled what you had given me at 152, but the Choong text does not address anything I brought up that requires citation, and footnote 11 there is appended to this:

The corresponding SA 296 is different in expression; for example, it reverses the sequence, beginning with "conditioned by ignorance are activities". However, the message is the same in both versions.

I already typed this out but here I am doing it again.

This is not relevant to anything discussed thus far. This is not relevant to dharmanairātmyatā --> dharmaniyāmatā. This is not Choong citing his alteration. Nor is it citing an alteration of Yin Shun.
:jumping: :juggling: I see!

Choong in fact follows both Yinshun (CSA ii, p. 35) and the Sanskrit text. :clap:
He may follow it but he does not cite the differences between this scholarly reconstruction and the traditional Buddhavacana. That has been my point all along.

He remembers to cite the alteration on page 45 of this text of his.

I think he simply forgot to cite it properly in the other text. People make mistakes. I'm glad I managed to find a citation of alteration from him. It had always bothered me that the alteration was not cited in the original text discussed.

That being said, the citation is missing in Fundamentals of Early Buddhism. I've already discussed how the text for footnote 11 does not address the topic at hand. Furthermore, footnote 11 in Fundamentals is a citation of a different section of Ven Yin Shun's CSA than his direct citation addressing specifically dharmanairātmyatā --> dharmaniyāmatā in the Pratyayasūtra in his Annotated Translation of Sutras from the Chinese Samyuktagama relevant to the Early Buddhist Teachings on Emptiness and the Middle Way.
I think his notes 11 (for Yinshun CSA ii p. 35) & 14 (for the Sanskrit text), and the citation for SA 296 in page 153, are very clear indeed. You need to follow and read Yinshun CSA ii p. 35 & the Sanskrit text, not just T2 p. 84. :thumbsup:
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Are there any EBT suttas not found in the paali collection?

Post by Coëmgenu »

thomaslaw wrote: Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:12 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:32 am [...] the citation is missing in Fundamentals of Early Buddhism. I've already discussed how the text for footnote 11 does not address the topic at hand. Furthermore, footnote 11 in Fundamentals is a citation of a different section of Ven Yin Shun's CSA than his direct citation addressing specifically dharmanairātmyatā --> dharmaniyāmatā in the Pratyayasūtra in his Annotated Translation of Sutras from the Chinese Samyuktagama relevant to the Early Buddhist Teachings on Emptiness and the Middle Way.
I think his notes 11 (for Yinshun CSA ii p. 35) & 14 (for the Sanskrit text), and the citation for SA 296 in page 153, are very clear indeed. You need to follow and read Yinshun CSA ii p. 35 & the Sanskrit text, not just T2 p. 84. :thumbsup:
This is Ven Yin Shun's footnote from his CSA, it is footnote 2, in volume 2, page 36:
註【13-002】「定」,原本誤作「空」,今依『論』改。

Ven Choong cites this particular footnote in his aforementioned Annotated Translation. Footnote 11 of Fundamentals is not citing this particular footnote of Ven Yin Shun. It is citing a different section of the text. This makes sense, because Footnote 11 of Fundamentals does not address or discuss dharmanairātmyatā --> dharmaniyāmatā, but his footnote in Annotated Translation does. In Footnote 11 of Fundamentals he is citing material from the previous page.

I am not calling Ven Choong a liar or anything of the like, as I said before:

I think he simply forgot to cite it properly in the other text. People make mistakes. I'm glad I managed to find a citation of alteration from him. It had always bothered me that the alteration was not cited in the original text discussed.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
thomaslaw
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Location: Australia

Re: Are there any EBT suttas not found in the paali collection?

Post by thomaslaw »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:42 am ...
I think he simply forgot to cite it properly in the other text. People make mistakes. I'm glad I managed to find a citation of alteration from him. It had always bothered me that the alteration was not cited in the original text discussed.
I do not think he 'simply forgot'. I think his notes 11 (for Yinshun CSA ii p. 35) and 14 (for the Sanskrit text), and the citation for SA 296 in page 153, are very clear for the argument. You just need to follow and read Yinshun CSA ii p. 35 for SA 296, and the Sanskrit text, not just T2 p. 84. :jumping:
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Are there any EBT suttas not found in the paali collection?

Post by Coëmgenu »

thomaslaw wrote: Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:09 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:42 am ...
I think he simply forgot to cite it properly in the other text. People make mistakes. I'm glad I managed to find a citation of alteration from him. It had always bothered me that the alteration was not cited in the original text discussed.
I do not think he 'simply forgot'. I think his notes 11 (for Yinshun CSA ii p. 35) and 14 (for the Sanskrit text), and the citation for SA 296 in page 153, are very clear for the argument. You just need to follow and read Yinshun CSA ii p. 35 for SA 296, and the Sanskrit text, not just T2 p. 84. :jumping:
I actually have. I even provided the correct citation from Choong in another text. I even gave you the correct citation from the CSA itself, the text is freely available online, which is the citation he gives in Annotated Translations. It is not the citation he gives in Fundamentals.

It falls to you to actually demonstrate that you know what you are talking about at all. Your contributions will stand on their own, if you are capable of giving any.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
thomaslaw
Posts: 812
Joined: Fri Apr 19, 2013 12:55 am
Location: Australia

Re: Are there any EBT suttas not found in the paali collection?

Post by thomaslaw »

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:48 am
thomaslaw wrote: Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:09 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:42 am ...
I do not think he 'simply forgot'. I think his notes 11 (for Yinshun CSA ii p. 35) and 14 (for the Sanskrit text), and the citation for SA 296 in page 153, are very clear for the argument. You just need to follow and read Yinshun CSA ii p. 35 for SA 296, and the Sanskrit text, not just T2 p. 84. :jumping:
I actually have. I even provided the correct citation from Choong in another text. I even gave you the correct citation from the CSA itself, the text is freely available online, which is the citation he gives in Annotated Translations. It is not the citation he gives in Fundamentals.

It falls to you to actually demonstrate that you know what you are talking about at all. Your contributions will stand on their own, if you are capable of giving any.
I have told you more than two times to check and read the CSA for the Chinese text :twothumbsup:
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Are there any EBT suttas not found in the paali collection?

Post by Coëmgenu »

thomaslaw wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:20 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:48 am
thomaslaw wrote: Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:09 pm

I do not think he 'simply forgot'. I think his notes 11 (for Yinshun CSA ii p. 35) and 14 (for the Sanskrit text), and the citation for SA 296 in page 153, are very clear for the argument. You just need to follow and read Yinshun CSA ii p. 35 for SA 296, and the Sanskrit text, not just T2 p. 84. :jumping:
I actually have. I even provided the correct citation from Choong in another text. I even gave you the correct citation from the CSA itself, the text is freely available online, which is the citation he gives in Annotated Translations. It is not the citation he gives in Fundamentals.

It falls to you to actually demonstrate that you know what you are talking about at all. Your contributions will stand on their own, if you are capable of giving any.
I have told you more than two times to check and read the CSA for the Chinese text :twothumbsup:
And I did. How do you think I found that footnote? Did I make it up?

Here it is again:

註【13-002】「定」,原本誤作「空」,今依『論』改。

At this point I think you haven't read the CSA. Please contribute meaningful input. You don't need to tell me to read things I've read.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
thomaslaw
Posts: 812
Joined: Fri Apr 19, 2013 12:55 am
Location: Australia

Re: Are there any EBT suttas not found in the paali collection?

Post by thomaslaw »

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:22 am
thomaslaw wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:20 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:48 am

I actually have. I even provided the correct citation from Choong in another text. I even gave you the correct citation from the CSA itself, the text is freely available online, which is the citation he gives in Annotated Translations. It is not the citation he gives in Fundamentals.

It falls to you to actually demonstrate that you know what you are talking about at all. Your contributions will stand on their own, if you are capable of giving any.
I have told you more than two times to check and read the CSA for the Chinese text :twothumbsup:
And I did. How do you think I found that footnote? Did I make it up?

Here it is again:

註【13-002】「定」,原本誤作「空」,今依『論』改。

At this point I think you haven't read the CSA. Please contribute meaningful input. You don't need to tell me to read things I've read.
Finally you checked and read the CSA. Good on you! :quote:
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Are there any EBT suttas not found in the paali collection?

Post by Coëmgenu »

thomaslaw wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:27 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:22 am
thomaslaw wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:20 am

I have told you more than two times to check and read the CSA for the Chinese text :twothumbsup:
And I did. How do you think I found that footnote? Did I make it up?

Here it is again:

註【13-002】「定」,原本誤作「空」,今依『論』改。

At this point I think you haven't read the CSA. Please contribute meaningful input. You don't need to tell me to read things I've read.
Finally you checked and read the CSA. Good on you! :quote:
That's how I know you haven't read it. You are too misinformed to even contribute to this discussion in any way. I regret speaking to you. Hopefully others will see your display here and know that there is little point in interacting with you.

If you had read the CSA, if you know this footnote: "註【13-002】「定」,原本誤作「空」,今依『論』改。", then you also know that footenote 11 in Fundamentals is not citing this footnote. Therefore you have not informed yourself. You do not know what you are talking about.

Choong never cites this footnote in the entirety of Fundamentals. It seems uou incapable of grasping that notion. He cites it in other works of his, but not in Fundamentals.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
thomaslaw
Posts: 812
Joined: Fri Apr 19, 2013 12:55 am
Location: Australia

Re: Are there any EBT suttas not found in the paali collection?

Post by thomaslaw »

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:29 am
thomaslaw wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:27 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:22 am

And I did. How do you think I found that footnote? Did I make it up?

Here it is again:

註【13-002】「定」,原本誤作「空」,今依『論』改。

At this point I think you haven't read the CSA. Please contribute meaningful input. You don't need to tell me to read things I've read.
Finally you checked and read the CSA. Good on you! :quote:
That's how I know you haven't read it. You are too misinformed to even contribute to this discussion in any way. I regret speaking to you. Hopefully others will see your display here and know that there is little point in interacting with you.

If you had read the CSA, if you know this footnote: "註【13-002】「定」,原本誤作「空」,今依『論』改。", then you also know that footenote 11 in Fundamentals is not citing this footnote. Therefore you have not informed yourself. You do not know what you are talking about.

Choong never cites this footnote in the entirety of Fundamentals. It seems uou incapable of grasping that notion. He cites it in other works of his, but not in Fundamentals.
You just need to check and read the CSA and the Sanskrit text for the Chinese text as I told you; got it! :jumping:
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Are there any EBT suttas not found in the paali collection?

Post by Coëmgenu »

thomaslaw wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:35 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:29 am
thomaslaw wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:27 am

Finally you checked and read the CSA. Good on you! :quote:
That's how I know you haven't read it. You are too misinformed to even contribute to this discussion in any way. I regret speaking to you. Hopefully others will see your display here and know that there is little point in interacting with you.

If you had read the CSA, if you know this footnote: "註【13-002】「定」,原本誤作「空」,今依『論』改。", then you also know that footenote 11 in Fundamentals is not citing this footnote. Therefore you have not informed yourself. You do not know what you are talking about.

Choong never cites this footnote in the entirety of Fundamentals. It seems uou incapable of grasping that notion. He cites it in other works of his, but not in Fundamentals.
You just need to check and read the CSA and the Sanskrit text for the Chinese text as I told you; got it! :jumping:
Please stop lying on public forums.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
thomaslaw
Posts: 812
Joined: Fri Apr 19, 2013 12:55 am
Location: Australia

Re: Are there any EBT suttas not found in the paali collection?

Post by thomaslaw »

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:36 am
thomaslaw wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:35 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:29 am

That's how I know you haven't read it. You are too misinformed to even contribute to this discussion in any way. I regret speaking to you. Hopefully others will see your display here and know that there is little point in interacting with you.

If you had read the CSA, if you know this footnote: "註【13-002】「定」,原本誤作「空」,今依『論』改。", then you also know that footenote 11 in Fundamentals is not citing this footnote. Therefore you have not informed yourself. You do not know what you are talking about.

Choong never cites this footnote in the entirety of Fundamentals. It seems uou incapable of grasping that notion. He cites it in other works of his, but not in Fundamentals.
You just need to check and read the CSA and the Sanskrit text for the Chinese text as I told you; got it! :jumping:
Please stop lying on public forums.
You do mean you are? :rolleye:
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Are there any EBT suttas not found in the paali collection?

Post by Coëmgenu »

thomaslaw wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:39 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:36 am
thomaslaw wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:35 am

You just need to check and read the CSA and the Sanskrit text for the Chinese text as I told you; got it! :jumping:
Please stop lying on public forums.
You do mean you are? :rolleye:
Telling falsehoods, when indulged in, developed, & pursued, is something that leads to hell, leads to rebirth as a common animal, leads to the realm of the hungry shades. The slightest of all the results coming from telling falsehoods is that, when one becomes a human being, it leads to being falsely accused.

Please stop telling falsehoods about the CSA & Choong's Fundamentals.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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