original buddhism

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
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Sovatthika
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Re: original buddhism

Post by Sovatthika » Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:43 am

fwiw
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"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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DNS
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Re: original buddhism

Post by DNS » Sat Nov 04, 2017 5:23 am

Sovatthika wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:43 am
fwiw
Where is that from? It looks like some people chatting on facebook? In any event, it was just a brief sketch, not something written in stone. Of course the intricacies are quite complex with lots of influences and branches going in multiple directions, it was just a brief outline.

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Re: original buddhism

Post by Sovatthika » Sat Nov 04, 2017 6:14 am

yeah me and this other guy from my orthodox buddhism group
i didn't like that he was not expounding on his complaint, which is actually something i've noticed from him before, but since there might be something to it i thought i'd drop it in
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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Coëmgenu
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Re: original buddhism

Post by Coëmgenu » Wed Nov 08, 2017 1:29 pm

Indeed, this graph here Image is quite wrong. But not necessarily "utterly wrong".

It is just very speculative, and should probably be marked as such. Most "Pure Land Buddhism", in its contemporary form, is not at all the Pure Land Buddhism speculated to have existed in Ghandara ~0-200AD. For instance, the traditional Indian Pure Land Buddhism still involved the following of prātimokṣa and bodhisattvaśīla, two practices generally discarded in Pure Land Buddhism today.

I myself would place the ascendence of contemporary Pure Land around ~4-600AD, as exemplified by when it entered into China and started to gradually take its modern-day form.

Similarly, Mahāyāna's beginnings are much more mysterious than what the chart implies.

For instance, all of the Sarvāstivāda & Mūlasarvāstivāda monks converted to Mahāyāna, then some converted to Vajrayāna when it began to become popular in India. It seems here that they all converted to Vajrayāna.

Another issue is ordination lines vs sects. The modern Mūlasarvāstivāda that "became" Tibetan Buddhism was not a 'school' anymore, given that they were fully converted and discarded their traditional Sarvāstivāda beliefs and theories of the Buddhadharma, rather, they were a vinaya lineage of ordination, I believe.

If Mūlasarvāstivāda is listed as "becoming" Vajrayāna, than Dharmaguptaka (once again coming from the Sarvāstivādins again), not Mahāsāṃghika, should be listed as what "Mahāyāna" came out of, as all modern Mahāyāna ordination lineages trace themselves to the Dharmaguptaka.
神足示現者,
世尊隨其所應,而示現入禪定正受,陵虛至東方,作四威儀,
行、住、坐、臥,入火三昧,出種種火光,青、黃、赤、白、
紅、頗梨色,水火俱現, 或身下出火,身上出水,身上出火,
身下出水,周圓四方亦復如是。

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Re: original buddhism

Post by DNS » Wed Nov 08, 2017 3:47 pm

As I have mentioned previously, it is just a brief sketch, not meant to be something as impressive and ambitious as this graph:
http://funki.com.ua/ru/portfolio/lab/wo ... ions-tree/

But my brief sketch does show the approximate dates of each of the early and later major schools. It could not list all of the schools and all of the interactions because as I say, it was not the huge project like the world religions tree. It does however, show the major time frames involved and the very cursory overview of the evolution. Others can disagree and of course I'm fine with that. As I mention, this is just one interpretation and analysis, ymmv.

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Coëmgenu
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Re: original buddhism

Post by Coëmgenu » Thu Nov 09, 2017 3:01 am

DNS wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 3:47 pm
As I have mentioned previously, it is just a brief sketch, not meant to be something as impressive and ambitious as this graph:
http://funki.com.ua/ru/portfolio/lab/wo ... ions-tree/
I feel the need to clarify that my suggestions were not meant to add to the "pile up" on that chart. Just to offer some suggestions that are quite fallible and human. For instance, many Pure Landers would be very upset and fiercely argue with how far back I would have pushed back the date on Pure Land Buddhism, if I had made the chart. No chart is going to perfectly clarify all manner of historical ambiguity.
神足示現者,
世尊隨其所應,而示現入禪定正受,陵虛至東方,作四威儀,
行、住、坐、臥,入火三昧,出種種火光,青、黃、赤、白、
紅、頗梨色,水火俱現, 或身下出火,身上出水,身上出火,
身下出水,周圓四方亦復如是。

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DNS
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Re: original buddhism

Post by DNS » Thu Nov 09, 2017 3:32 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 3:01 am
I feel the need to clarify that my suggestions were not meant to add to the "pile up" on that chart. Just to offer some suggestions that are quite fallible and human. For instance, many Pure Landers would be very upset and fiercely argue with how far back I would have pushed back the date on Pure Land Buddhism, if I had made the chart. No chart is going to perfectly clarify all manner of historical ambiguity.
No worries, yes I think so. If about 50,000 or so Buddhists who have a pretty good knowledge of Buddhist history made a chart, there would be about 50,000 versions. In Israel, we had a joke that for every 2 Jews, there were 3 opinions.

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