Āgama translation questions

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
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Coëmgenu
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Āgama translation questions

Post by Coëmgenu » Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:21 pm

Split from this thread.
atipattoh wrote:无为 is not 无所为, i’m not aware of if there is an opposite of 无为, but there is an escalation of 无为, that is 无(所)不为。
I am highly baffled by the usage of 所 in Chinese Buddhist literature, what does it mean by your reckoning? The dictionaries and textbooks I have consulted give an extremely wide range of meanings. What do you think "无所为" means? I am only a novice at Classical Chinese, but I hope to get better, for the purposes of reading the āgamāḥ in their source-language.
atipattoh wrote:(无)(不) ie. (-)*(-)=(+)
Can you clarify this statement? I am unsure what you mean.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Thu Feb 23, 2017 12:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
神足示現者,
世尊隨其所應,而示現入禪定正受,陵虛至東方,作四威儀,
行、住、坐、臥,入火三昧,出種種火光,青、黃、赤、白、
紅、頗梨色,水火俱現, 或身下出火,身上出水,身上出火,
身下出水,周圓四方亦復如是。

atipattoh
Posts: 95
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Re: Āgama translation questions

Post by atipattoh » Fri Feb 17, 2017 6:48 am

‘所’ in 无所为 is meant to differentiate from 无为 as 无为 has a special meaning on its own.
无所为 means 不为.

无 (non) 不 (no), similar like ‘isn’t no’ in English as in "There isn't no sunshine!" & 无不为 extend more than that; not just double negative, which makes it positive again; it meant to emphasize as well. So in 道, 无为才能无不为。Due to 道 that 无为 has a special ‘status’, so ‘所’ has to be added if it meant to say not doing.

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Āgama translation questions

Post by Coëmgenu » Wed Feb 22, 2017 8:10 pm

I've been making my way through SA 276, 難陀說法/"Nandā expounds Dharma", and I've encountered an unusual sequence of characters:

答言:「不也,尊者難陀!所以者何?
[The Buddha] answering[,] said: "Not so, respected one Nandā! If because-of that why?

尊者難陀!我已曾於六外入處如實觀察無我,
Respected one Nandā! I hereafter in six external [and] internal dwellings [of] self-evidence [via] insight observed lack [of an] 'I',

我常作此意解,六外入處如實無我。」
I constantly make these ideas understood, [the] six internal [and] external dwellings [of] self-evidence [are] lacking [the] 'I'."

Is this a usual way to refer, in Chinese and other related early Buddhist discourses, to the sense bases? That is what I think 六外入處如實 has to refer to: the "self-evident" six sense bases, internal and external.

Literally translated, the string of characters, 六外入處如實, is "six outside inside dwelling thus reality", so I at first thought it might be a Chinese transcription of a foreign name. Any thoughts?
神足示現者,
世尊隨其所應,而示現入禪定正受,陵虛至東方,作四威儀,
行、住、坐、臥,入火三昧,出種種火光,青、黃、赤、白、
紅、頗梨色,水火俱現, 或身下出火,身上出水,身上出火,
身下出水,周圓四方亦復如是。

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Āgama translation questions

Post by Coëmgenu » Thu Feb 23, 2017 12:01 am

atipattoh wrote:‘所’ in 无所为 is meant to differentiate from 无为 as 无为 has a special meaning on its own.
无所为 means 不为
Does 无所为 feature heavily in Early Buddhist discourse, i.e. the agamas?
神足示現者,
世尊隨其所應,而示現入禪定正受,陵虛至東方,作四威儀,
行、住、坐、臥,入火三昧,出種種火光,青、黃、赤、白、
紅、頗梨色,水火俱現, 或身下出火,身上出水,身上出火,
身下出水,周圓四方亦復如是。

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Dhammanando
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Re: Āgama translation questions

Post by Dhammanando » Thu Feb 23, 2017 1:20 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
atipattoh wrote:‘所’ in 无所为 is meant to differentiate from 无为 as 无为 has a special meaning on its own.
无所为 means 不为
Does 无所为 feature heavily in Early Buddhist discourse, i.e. the agamas?
Do you know what Indic word it translates?

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Āgama translation questions

Post by Coëmgenu » Thu Feb 23, 2017 1:27 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote:
atipattoh wrote:‘所’ in 无所为 is meant to differentiate from 无为 as 无为 has a special meaning on its own.
无所为 means 不为
Does 无所为 feature heavily in Early Buddhist discourse, i.e. the agamas?
Do you know what Indic word it translates?
To the best of my knowledge, 无所为 is a specifically Chinese grammatical curiosity. 所 is a grammatical function in Chinese that is commonly used, but one that I can't get my head around as of yet. 无所为, to the best of my current knowledge, means "lack of lackingness (or "lack of lacker") of activities".
神足示現者,
世尊隨其所應,而示現入禪定正受,陵虛至東方,作四威儀,
行、住、坐、臥,入火三昧,出種種火光,青、黃、赤、白、
紅、頗梨色,水火俱現, 或身下出火,身上出水,身上出火,
身下出水,周圓四方亦復如是。

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Dhammanando
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Re: Āgama translation questions

Post by Dhammanando » Thu Feb 23, 2017 4:23 am

Coëmgenu wrote:To the best of my knowledge, 无所为 is a specifically Chinese grammatical curiosity. 所 is a grammatical function in Chinese that is commonly used, but one that I can't get my head around as of yet. 无所为, to the best of my current knowledge, means "lack of lackingness (or "lack of lacker") of activities".
Possibly visaṅkhāra then. In the earliest Pali sources the word is only found in Dhammapada 154.

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Āgama translation questions

Post by Coëmgenu » Thu Feb 23, 2017 4:53 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote:To the best of my knowledge, 无所为 is a specifically Chinese grammatical curiosity. 所 is a grammatical function in Chinese that is commonly used, but one that I can't get my head around as of yet. 无所为, to the best of my current knowledge, means "lack of lackingness (or "lack of lacker") of activities".
Possibly visaṅkhāra then. In the earliest Pali sources the word is only found in Dhammapada 154.
Please don't take my tentative speculations as legitimate translations, but I will look into the term you have provided nonetheless.
神足示現者,
世尊隨其所應,而示現入禪定正受,陵虛至東方,作四威儀,
行、住、坐、臥,入火三昧,出種種火光,青、黃、赤、白、
紅、頗梨色,水火俱現, 或身下出火,身上出水,身上出火,
身下出水,周圓四方亦復如是。

atipattoh
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Re: Āgama translation questions

Post by atipattoh » Thu Feb 23, 2017 5:05 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
atipattoh wrote:‘所’ in 无所为 is meant to differentiate from 无为 as 无为 has a special meaning on its own.
无所为 means 不为
Does 无所为 feature heavily in Early Buddhist discourse, i.e. the agamas?
In agamas, only 无为 is heavily spoken of.
无所为 can mean not doing, nothing is done (in a negative tone). 无所为 is just a common communicative term, I would consider rendering as 无所为 destroys the meaning of 无为. The two should not be equated.
Dhammanando wrote: Possibly visaṅkhāra then. In the earliest Pali sources the word is only found in Dhammapada 154.
Bhante, 无所为 for visankhara is plausible, probably the only usage that is positive sense is in visankharagatam cittam for 无所为.
:anjali:

Just checked, the Chinese translation for
visankharagatam cittam is
我心已證無為法

Chinese translation seems to take visankhara = asankhata :roll:
anyway, 心无所为 sounds good in this dhammapada verse.

atipattoh
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Re: Āgama translation questions

Post by atipattoh » Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:19 am

Coëmgenu wrote:That is what I think 六外入處如實 has to refer to: the "self-evident" six sense bases, internal and external.
Are you taking 如實 as ‘self-evident’?
如實 is usually termed together with知見, as you should notice on top of the sutta
答言:「不也,尊者難陀!所以者何?尊者難陀!我等已曾於此法如實 知見,於六內入處觀察無我,我等已曾作如是意解:『六內入處無我。』」
六外入處如實 (知見) 無我。
So i would read it as something like this:
(Knowing and seeing as it is; that) six external and internal sense base are indeed lacking of self.

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Āgama translation questions

Post by Coëmgenu » Thu Feb 23, 2017 2:43 pm

atipattoh wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote:That is what I think 六外入處如實 has to refer to: the "self-evident" six sense bases, internal and external.
Are you taking 如實 as ‘self-evident’?
如實 is usually termed together with知見, as you should notice on top of the sutta
答言:「不也,尊者難陀!所以者何?尊者難陀!我等已曾於此法如實 知見,於六內入處觀察無我,我等已曾作如是意解:『六內入處無我。』」
六外入處如實 (知見) 無我。
So i would read it as something like this:
(Knowing and seeing as it is; that) six external and internal sense base are indeed lacking of self.
Yes, my choosing of "self-evident" was out of a desire for a one-to-one correspondence between Chinese characters and English words, wherever possible.

I don't pretend these are professional translations, I'm just making my way through the texts as I learn.

You mentioned 如實/rú shí as being paired with 知見/zhī jiàn, I'll ask more about this in a second. I had rendered 如實 as "self evident" because its literal meaning, as far as I can present conjecture, is 如/"thus" & 實/"real", or, altogether, "real on account of how it is thus". I figured "self-evident" was a good concise English term to render this, which has the added bonus of being two words, just like the original Chinese was two characters.

It is 知見, as you pointed out, that I am not so cautiously sure about. There are also some double-meanings which seem equally likely for certain characters, namely 已/,

尊者難陀!我等已曾於此法如實知見,
Respected one Nanda! I constantly after [that] previous-time in this dharma[,] self evident[,] discern understanding,

The trouble is finding what the verb is interacting with. Is 知/"to discern" modifying 如實/"thus real" or 我/"I". I think it is more likely modifying 我/"I", which would make 如實/"thus real" modify 此法/"this dharma" as an describing phrase for that dharma.

If 知/"to discern" is modifying 如實/"thus real", then I have no clue what this sentence is trying to say, and I'm ok with that. It just means, I guess, that the translators have hidden the verb of the sentence in a different sentence earlier in the discourse, and are referring to that verb without mentioning it (those crafty ones! :D ).

Suffice to say, is this a valid reading of 知見 in your opinion, "to discern wisdom/understanding"?
神足示現者,
世尊隨其所應,而示現入禪定正受,陵虛至東方,作四威儀,
行、住、坐、臥,入火三昧,出種種火光,青、黃、赤、白、
紅、頗梨色,水火俱現, 或身下出火,身上出水,身上出火,
身下出水,周圓四方亦復如是。

atipattoh
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Re: Āgama translation questions

Post by atipattoh » Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:55 am

Coëmgenu wrote:Suffice to say, is this a valid reading of 知見 in your opinion, "to discern wisdom/understanding"?
Yes, can take ‘知見’ as understood as the parallel MN146, the word for it is ājānatī .
Tattha ājānantīhi: ‘ājānāmā’ tissa vacanīyaṃ, na ājānantīhi: ‘na ājānāmā’ tissa vacanīyaṃ.
Discern is alright but not wisdom, the word for wisdom is 智 (見/慧)

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Āgama translation questions

Post by Coëmgenu » Fri Feb 24, 2017 7:00 pm

atipattoh wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote:Suffice to say, is this a valid reading of 知見 in your opinion, "to discern wisdom/understanding"?
[...]
Discern is alright but not wisdom, the word for wisdom is 智 (見/慧)
I think the multicharacter reading of 知見 as "one word" (discern) might be a development of later Literary Chinese. I don't say this for certain because I am aware of my amateur attainment in this field that I am interested in.

The dictionaries and textbooks I consulted listed 知 as a verb that means "to discern", among a host of other readings, and 見 as a noun that means "understanding" or "wisdom". Are the pairing of these two characters to mean a single verb a feature of Classical Chinese? I know this happens frequently in modern Chinese, which is full of two and three syllable words, consisting of 2 to 3 characters respectively, but the dominant narratives concerning Classical Chinese grammar that I have inherited stick to a "one character one word" system of reading. Is this the case in your experience?
神足示現者,
世尊隨其所應,而示現入禪定正受,陵虛至東方,作四威儀,
行、住、坐、臥,入火三昧,出種種火光,青、黃、赤、白、
紅、頗梨色,水火俱現, 或身下出火,身上出水,身上出火,
身下出水,周圓四方亦復如是。

atipattoh
Posts: 95
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Re: Āgama translation questions

Post by atipattoh » Sat Feb 25, 2017 1:52 am

My mistake, i should have pointed out ‘我常作此意解, does imply 知見.

On your question 知見, my understading would be because見道 then only 知道. 如實知見 i would take it as meditative discernment of knowledge. The new development would be as 見解, that if you google on ‘意解’, you may find something like this: ‘心开意解,就是开悟(enlightened)了’. New development would be having personal 意見 (opinion) then 了解 and that can become enlightened, which is different from 如實知見, a meditative knowledge; two different things. So 意解 in the sutta may have require the process of 如實知見, as 如實知見 does appear before 意解, not just understood by formation of personal opinion.
Classical Chinese grammar would be one character many possible words and it twist and turns. That's why i fails most of my test paper in school. :lol:

Coming back to the whole sentence, that i find contradicting:
常作此意解,六外入處如實無我
I constantly understand as thus, six external and internal sense base are indeed lacking of I.

So better to add back ‘ 等‘ as well; “我(等) 常作此意解” which is to say that it is only due to communicative reason that the word ‘我’ is used but means 'we'.

The following is a bit side track; in the sutta, it says after Nandaka teaches those bhikkhunīs the 1st day, they are close to fulfilling their intention
譬如明月十四日夜,多眾觀月,為是滿耶?為未滿耶?當知彼月未究竟滿。
just as on the Uposatha day of the fourteenth people are not doubtful or perplexed as to whether the moon is incomplete or full .
From this info we can say that the Chinese translation appear to record what happen on that day alone, that those bhikkhunīs already knew the dhamma with appearance of these words
“我等已曾此法如實知見,於六內入處觀察無我,我等已曾作如是意解:『六內入處無我。』”
And if the English translation is exact, then the Pali is elaborating what other bhikkhus have taught the bhikkhunīs to be under Nandaka’s teaching. As the very next day, the least attainment of the bhikkhunīs is stream-enterer.
the least advanced of those five hundred bhikkhunīs is a stream-enterer, no longer subject to perdition, bound for deliverance, headed for enlightenment.
& the Chinese goes to clearly claim that non of those bhikkhunīs shall take birth again .
然此等比丘尼命終之時,不見一結不斷,能使彼還生於此世。
And all these is happening in 2 days...

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Āgama translation questions

Post by Coëmgenu » Tue Mar 07, 2017 11:25 pm

I was looking through SA 296 when I came across an interesting line in the translation posted at SuttaCentral by Choong Mun-keat.

The line in question is this:
“Whether a Buddha arises in the world, or not, this is the unchangeable nature of dharma, the status of dharma, the element of dharma.
Which in the Chinese is:
若佛出世,若未出世,此法常住,法住法界,
I am hardly one to accuse someone more qualified than I of misreading a text and producing a potentially misleading translation, as I am not of resolute persuasion that my speculations are of definite assuredness, however there are some things in Choong Mun-keat's translation that make me puzzled, and I was hoping to share those hopefully with people more qualified than myself to see if they agree with my assessment or can show me where I go wrong.

The Chinese has 4 blocks of characters separated by commas- the English translation has 5 of these. The first two blocks of texts correspond to the Chinese more or less perfectly, the Chinese is slightly more detailed than the English in the second block (若未出世 means "if not-yet born" rather than "or not" but that is a minor point). The two things that puzzle me are the splitting of the 3rd block of characters into two separate clauses in the English, as well as the rendering of the word 法界 (dharmadhātu).

The translator splits 此法常住 into two different clauses in the English: "this is the unchangeable nature of dharma, the status of dharma,". If you assign one English character per Chinese word, for a word-for-word rendering (this method does not produce "solidly readable" English translations, but does allow one to "get inside" the text to try to see it on its own ground rather than always in comparison), and if you have a knowledge of Classical Chinese grammar, one gets something like this:
若佛出世,若未出世,此法常住,法住法界,
ruò fó chū shì, ruò wèi chū shì, cǐ fǎ cháng zhù, fǎ zhù fǎ jiè,
If Buddha [is] born, if not-yet born, these dharmāḥ [are] permanent/constant [in their] dwelling[s], [these] dharmāḥ dwell [in] dharmadhātu
"Dwelling/Dwellings/Dwell" here can also be read in the sense of "[proper] place/standing/habitation, rather than literally "dwelling" somewhere.

I am wondering why dharmadhātu was not translated as dharmadhātu. In its modern Mahāyāna usage, its interpretation is principally coloured by the manner in which it is used in the Avataṃsakasūtra, to refer to a tathātā/yathābhūtaṃ state of "reality (viewed) as-it-is/without delusion", which also informs the function of tathātā-discourse in Tiāntāi, Zen, etc.

However, dharmadhātu appears in Pāli literature (and other EBTs?) as "dhammadhātu", where it has a variety of meanings that are, as a whole, not easily paired down to simply to referring to any one particularly definable "element of dharma/dharmāḥ".

In Theravāda orthodoxy, the term dhammadhātu generally refers via proxy to the (pseudo-?)omniscience of the Buddha. Is this an interpretation that studiers of EBTs disagree with? If so, has that informed the translation choice of "element of dharmāḥ" rather than "dharmadhātu"?

Similarly I am also wondering why the 3rd block of Chinese characters was split into two separate clauses for English-language rendering. Why is "此法常住" translated as "this is the unchangeable nature of dharma, the status of dharma," when the word "status of dharma" seems absent from the Chinese text.

Similarly, why have the plurals been render as singular? The Chinese appeares to read 此法, meaning "these [many] dharmāḥ", meaning that this particular sequence of characters refer to the dharmāḥ spoken of in the main body of the text before and after this sequence of characters, which are described as:
此等諸法, or directly "this/these plural-marker myriad dharma/dharmāḥ"
, not the Buddha's teaching on on dependant origination (which is what it refers to in the Nikāya parallel). This āgama actually never seems to use 法/dharma in the sense of "the Teaching of the Buddha" and goes out of its way to doubly insignify the plurality of the dharmāḥ it speaks about (等諸).

The Chinese and English rendering seem to gloss over a subtle difference in the characterization and classifications of the dharma-theory presented in the text, as the meaning of the āgama to an English speaker, probably in the interest of bringing it into line with its corresponding Nikāya recension, seems to be partially harmonized, when in actuality the two of them are arguing for a subtly different interpretation of dhamma-theory expounded by the Buddha as related to dependent origination. This might make sense given that this is a Sarvāstivāda text, and their resencion of Buddhavacana implies a subtly differently interpreted/presented dhamma-theory, as evidenced by their later divergent Abhidharmāḥ. So I am wondering what the decision may have been to render these plurals as singular, changing the usage of 法/dharma from its "phenomena" meaning to its "the Teaching" meaning.

Anyways that is a summation of some of my points of confusion regarding this āgama translation.

One further note:

Some context as to why I think what is rendered in English as "the dharma" actually refers to a certain "these dharmāḥ (dharmas)", and refers to the separate constituent dharmāḥ of what is called "dependant origination" in the Páli (there appears to be no single word than can express paṭiccasamuppāda in the Chinese lexicon of this specific piece of SA literature, the ágama instead describes a series of "self-evident" "predestined" dharmāḥ instead of referring to the whole of dependent origination as a process in-the-abstract). Consider the beginning of the Buddhavacana:
云何緣生法?謂無明、行。
How [does] predestination develop [in the] dharmāḥ? That-is-to-say, ignorance [leading to] capabilities/activities.
The list is later filled in as to what other specific dharmāḥ the discourse concerns:
謂緣無明有行,乃至緣生有老死。
that-is-to-say [the] predestination [of] ignorance [to] becoming [ie bhāva] [of] capability, and-furthermore [the] predestination [of] becoming [to] age and death.
And then goes on to clarify:
彼如來自覺知,成等正覺,為人演說,開示顯發,謂緣生故,有老、病、死、憂、悲、惱、苦。
This Tathāgata on his own initiative is aware, accomplishes [the] rank [of] samyaksaṃbodhi, conducts his speech, expresses, shows, cultivates, that-is-to-say [the] predestined development of causes, becoming aging, sickening, dying, worrying, grieving, becoming-angry, and suffering.
Then the Buddhavacana concludes, concerning what was just expounded:
此等諸法,法住、法空、法如、法爾,法不離如,法不異如,審諦真實、不顛倒。
These many dharmāḥ, [these] dharmāḥ['s] residence/dwellinng/abiding, [these] dharmāḥ['s] emptiness, [these] dharmāḥ self-explain/[are-]thus [i.e. They have quality of being self-evident?], [these] dharmāḥ [are] thus-so, [these] dharmāḥ [do] not depart [from their] thusness/self-evidency, [these] dharmāḥ [are] not different/other than [their] thusness/self-evidency, judged as truly real, not delusional (or "without delusion").
Then for good measure the ágama has the discourse repeated one final time:
如是隨順緣起,是名緣生法。
謂無明、行、識、名色、六入處、觸、受、愛、取、有、生、老、病、死、憂、悲、惱、苦,是名緣生法。
Thus following obeisance [to] causes [of] arisings, this [is] named [the] development [of the] predestination [of the] dharmāḥ. That-is-to-say ignorance, capability, knowing, naming [and] forming, the six senses' touching, touching, receiving, lusting, taking, becoming, developing, aging, sickening, dying, worrying, grieving, [becoming-]angry, suffering, this [is] named [the] development [of the] predestination [of the] dharmāḥ.
And the ágama ends there. I apologize for my inconsistent diacritics on the word "ágama", my phone cannot input macrons easily.
神足示現者,
世尊隨其所應,而示現入禪定正受,陵虛至東方,作四威儀,
行、住、坐、臥,入火三昧,出種種火光,青、黃、赤、白、
紅、頗梨色,水火俱現, 或身下出火,身上出水,身上出火,
身下出水,周圓四方亦復如是。

James Tan
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Re: Āgama translation questions

Post by James Tan » Sat Jun 10, 2017 5:15 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
<To the best of my knowledge, 无所为 is a specifically Chinese grammatical curiosity. 所 is a grammatical function in Chinese that is commonly used, but one that I can't get my head around as of yet. 无所为, to the best of my current knowledge, means "lack of lackingness (or "lack of lacker") of activities".>

Hi friends , 无为 in buddhism translations meaning
is the "uncondition", different from the Lao Zi 老子 !

无所为 if according to Lao Zi teachings meaning
is referring to " incubation ", a kind of wisdom of living.


此等諸法,法住、法空、法如、法爾,法不離如,法不異如,審諦真實、不顛倒。
These many dharmāḥ, [these] dharmāḥ['s] residence/dwellinng/abiding, [these] dharmāḥ['s] emptiness, [these] dharmāḥ self-explain/[are-]thus [i.e. They have quality of being self-evident?], [these] dharmāḥ [are] thus-so, [these] dharmāḥ [do] not depart [from their] thusness/self-evidency, [these] dharmāḥ [are] not different/other than [their] thusness/self-evidency, judged as truly real, not delusional (or "without delusion").


FYI 法空 is a typo , should be 法定 .
P/s:
If you take the Middle Path
You will miss out the path !

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Āgama translation questions

Post by Coëmgenu » Sat Jun 10, 2017 6:08 pm

James Tan wrote:FYI 法空 is a typo , should be 法定 .
P/s:
Is this a manuscript error? CBETA & SuttaCentral have it as 空, is the error in the digitization?
神足示現者,
世尊隨其所應,而示現入禪定正受,陵虛至東方,作四威儀,
行、住、坐、臥,入火三昧,出種種火光,青、黃、赤、白、
紅、頗梨色,水火俱現, 或身下出火,身上出水,身上出火,
身下出水,周圓四方亦復如是。

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Location: Australia

Re: Āgama translation questions

Post by thomaslaw » Sun Jun 11, 2017 1:30 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
James Tan wrote:FYI 法空 is a typo , should be 法定 .
P/s:
Is this a manuscript error? CBETA & SuttaCentral have it as 空, is the error in the digitization?
法定 is correct in SA 296. See Choong Mun-keat The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, pp. 152-3, notes 11 and 14. Also in the note 11 of the book, see CSA ii, p. 35.

Regards,

Thomas

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Location: Australia

Re: Āgama translation questions

Post by thomaslaw » Sun Jun 11, 2017 1:41 am

Coëmgenu wrote:I was looking through SA 296 when I came across an interesting line in the translation posted at SuttaCentral by Choong Mun-keat.
如是隨順緣起,是名緣生法。
謂無明、行、識、名色、六入處、觸、受、愛、取、有、生、老、病、死、憂、悲、惱、苦,是名緣生法。
Thus following obeisance [to] causes [of] arisings, this [is] named [the] development [of the] predestination [of the] dharmāḥ. That-is-to-say ignorance, capability, knowing, naming [and] forming, the six senses' touching, touching, receiving, lusting, taking, becoming, developing, aging, sickening, dying, worrying, grieving, [becoming-]angry, suffering, this [is] named [the] development [of the] predestination [of the] dharmāḥ.
緣生法 in SA 296 is translated as 'dharmas (phenomena) arisen by causal condition' by Choong Mun-keat in the book, The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, pp. 150, 154.

Regards,

Thomas

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Re: Āgama translation questions

Post by Coëmgenu » Mon Jun 12, 2017 9:49 am

thomaslaw wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote:I was looking through SA 296 when I came across an interesting line in the translation posted at SuttaCentral by Choong Mun-keat.
如是隨順緣起,是名緣生法。
謂無明、行、識、名色、六入處、觸、受、愛、取、有、生、老、病、死、憂、悲、惱、苦,是名緣生法。
Thus following obeisance [to] causes [of] arisings, this [is] named [the] development [of the] predestination [of the] dharmāḥ. That-is-to-say ignorance, capability, knowing, naming [and] forming, the six senses' touching, touching, receiving, lusting, taking, becoming, developing, aging, sickening, dying, worrying, grieving, [becoming-]angry, suffering, this [is] named [the] development [of the] predestination [of the] dharmāḥ.
緣生法 in SA 296 is translated as 'dharmas (phenomena) arisen by causal condition' by Choong Mun-keat in the book, The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, pp. 150, 154.
Yes, indeed, but I was not quoting Choong Mun-keat in the passage that you quoted from, indeed, I did not write what you have be quoted as writing, but instead wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote:I was looking through SA 296 when I came across an interesting line in the translation posted at SuttaCentral by Choong Mun-keat.
“Whether a Buddha arises in the world, or not, this is the unchangeable nature of dharma, the status of dharma, the element of dharma.
I've been trying to track down Choong Mun-keat's book for a while though! I just found it in PDF form online. Thank you!

-Caoimhghín
神足示現者,
世尊隨其所應,而示現入禪定正受,陵虛至東方,作四威儀,
行、住、坐、臥,入火三昧,出種種火光,青、黃、赤、白、
紅、頗梨色,水火俱現, 或身下出火,身上出水,身上出火,
身下出水,周圓四方亦復如是。

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