The racial appearance of the Buddha: Vasala 'outcaste'

[thomaslaw]

Hi All,

In Sutta-nipaata 1.7 Vasala-sutta, the Buddha was being called as 'outcaste' (vasala-ka 'wicked outcaste') by a Brahmin (Sn 21: ' ''tatr' eve sama.naka, tatr' eve vasalaka ti.t.thaahii'' ti'. 'You are an outcaste, do not approach').

So, the Buddha was an 'outcaste' (vasala) to the Brahmin.

- Is it possible the racial appearance of the Buddha was 'non-Aryan', thus being called 'vasala' by the Brahmin?

Also, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakya" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; states thus:

“According to Hmannan Yazawin, first published in 1823, the legendary king Abhiyaza, who founded the Tagaung Kingdom and the Burmese monarchy belonged to the same Shakya clan of the Buddha.He migrated to the present-day Burma after the annexation of the Shakya kingdom by Kosala. The earlier Burmese accounts stated that he was a descendant of Pyusawhti, son of a solar spirit and a dragon princess.”

- Does anyone know which Burmese ethnic group currently considers themselves as the descendants from the same Shakya clan of the Buddha? If there exists such a group of people in Burma/Myanmar, their language may be the same or similar language of the Buddha?

Regards,

Thomas

[Cittasanto]

Hi,
He was probably darker skinned due to tanning in the sun. But he was probably referred to as an outcast because he was a Samana, not because of scin colour as it appears the cast system wasn't as rigid as it was today. There are some Hindus who disagree with the cast system's rigidity based on their texts. I'll see if I can find the sources later

Kind Regards
Cittasanto

[dagon]

Hi,
He was probably darker skinned due to tanning in the sun. But he was probably referred to as an outcast because he was a Samanera, not because of scin colour as it appears the cast system wasn't as rigid as it was today. There are some Hindus who disagree with the cast system's rigidity based on their texts. I'll see if I can find the sources later

Kind Regards
Cittasanto

See the notes at http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .piya.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

1.The abusive terms used by the brahman and the respectful address that follows need a word of explanation. The brahman had just prepared his offering to the great Brahma, his God, when his eyes fell on Buddha. To the brahman the sight of a samana, a shaven-headed recluse, was an unlucky sign. Hence he burst into angry words. The Buddha, however, was unruffled and spoke to him quietly in words of soft cadence. The brahman apparently was ashamed, and repenting of his folly, addressed the Buddha courteously. Comy. It is interesting to note the Buddha's stress on anger and hatred in his very first stanza.

metta

[Cittasanto]

Hi,
He was probably darker skinned due to tanning in the sun. But he was probably referred to as an outcast because he was a Samanera, not because of scin colour as it appears the caste system wasn't as rigid as it was today. There are some Hindus who disagree with the caste system's rigidity based on their texts. I'll see if I can find the sources later

Kind Regards
Cittasanto

EDIT - Spelling mistakes corrected.

[thomaslaw]

Hi

Thanks for the reply. But I think 'vasala' also refers to 'ca.n.daala', one of the low classes/clans/tribes. The commentary seems speculating the story!

Regards,

Thomas

[Kusala]

Hi All,

In Sutta-nipaata 1.7 Vasala-sutta, the Buddha was being called as 'outcaste' (vasala-ka 'wicked outcaste') by a Brahmin (Sn 21: ' ''tatr' eve sama.naka, tatr' eve vasalaka ti.t.thaahii'' ti'. 'You are an outcaste, do not approach').

So, the Buddha was an 'outcaste' (vasala) to the Brahmin.

- Is it possible the racial appearance of the Buddha was 'non-Aryan', thus being called 'vasala' by the Brahmin?

Also, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakya" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; states thus:

“According to Hmannan Yazawin, first published in 1823, the legendary king Abhiyaza, who founded the Tagaung Kingdom and the Burmese monarchy belonged to the same Shakya clan of the Buddha.He migrated to the present-day Burma after the annexation of the Shakya kingdom by Kosala. The earlier Burmese accounts stated that he was a descendant of Pyusawhti, son of a solar spirit and a dragon princess.”

- Does anyone know which Burmese ethnic group currently considers themselves as the descendants from the same Shakya clan of the Buddha? If there exists such a group of people in Burma/Myanmar, their language may be the same or similar language of the Buddha?

Regards,

Thomas

I did some research on the subject and concluded that the Buddha, without a shadow of a doubt, was an Aryan. The Pali Cannon describes the Buddha as tall, handsome, blue eyed...from Afghanistan to Northern India, you find people that could possibly be the descendants of the ancient Aryans...

Here's an Afghan man



School girl from Northern India

[Dhammanando]

I did some research on the subject and concluded that the Buddha, without a shadow of a doubt, was an Aryan. The Pali Cannon describes the Buddha as tall, handsome, blue eyed...from Afghanistan to Northern India, you find people that could possibly be the descendants of the ancient Aryans...

These descriptions are from the list of the thirty-two marks of a mahāpurisa. Was it also normal for the ancient Aryans to have forty teeth, sheathed penises and webbed fingers?

[Kusala]

Hehe Good one, Venerable Dhammanando! The 32 marks is weird...

[SarathW]

What are the 32 marks?

[Dhammanando]

What are the 32 marks?

The marks along with their past causes:

https://suttacentral.net/en/dn30

[Kusala]

Hi All,

In Sutta-nipaata 1.7 Vasala-sutta, the Buddha was being called as 'outcaste' (vasala-ka 'wicked outcaste') by a Brahmin (Sn 21: ' ''tatr' eve sama.naka, tatr' eve vasalaka ti.t.thaahii'' ti'. 'You are an outcaste, do not approach').

So, the Buddha was an 'outcaste' (vasala) to the Brahmin.

- Is it possible the racial appearance of the Buddha was 'non-Aryan', thus being called 'vasala' by the Brahmin?

Also, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakya" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; states thus:

“According to Hmannan Yazawin, first published in 1823, the legendary king Abhiyaza, who founded the Tagaung Kingdom and the Burmese monarchy belonged to the same Shakya clan of the Buddha.He migrated to the present-day Burma after the annexation of the Shakya kingdom by Kosala. The earlier Burmese accounts stated that he was a descendant of Pyusawhti, son of a solar spirit and a dragon princess.”

- Does anyone know which Burmese ethnic group currently considers themselves as the descendants from the same Shakya clan of the Buddha? If there exists such a group of people in Burma/Myanmar, their language may be the same or similar language of the Buddha?

Regards,

Thomas

Some Brahmins held the Buddha in high regard...the Brahmin, Cankti, for instance...

"...When this was said, the brahmin Cankī told those brahmins: “Now, sirs, hear from me why it is proper for me to go to see Master Gotama, and why it is not proper for Master Gotama to come to see me. Sirs, the recluse Gotama is well born on both sides, of pure maternal and paternal descent seven generations back, unassailable and impeccable in respect of birth. Since this is so, sirs, it is not proper for Master Gotama to come to see me; rather, it is proper for me to go to see Master Gotama.

Sirs, the recluse Gotama went forth abandoning much gold and bullion stored away in vaults and depositories. Sirs, the recluse Gotama went forth from the home life into homelessness while still young, a black-haired young man endowed with the blessing of youth, in the prime of life.

Sirs, the recluse Gotama shaved off his hair and beard, put on the yellow robe, and went forth from the home life into homelessness though his mother and father wished otherwise and wept with tearful faces. Sirs, the recluse Gotama is handsome, comely, and graceful, possessing supreme beauty of complexion, [167] with sublime beauty and sublime presence, remarkable to behold.

Sirs, the recluse Gotama is virtuous, with noble virtue, with wholesome virtue, possessing wholesome virtue. Sirs, the recluse Gotama is a good speaker with a good delivery; he speaks words that are courteous, distinct, flawless, and communicate the meaning. Sirs, the recluse Gotama is a teacher of the teachers of many. Sirs, the recluse Gotama is free from sensual lust and without personal vanity. Sirs, the recluse Gotama holds the doctrine of the moral efficacy of action, the doctrine of the moral efficacy of deeds; he does not seek any harm for the line of brahmins. Sirs, the recluse Gotama went forth from an aristocratic family, from one of the original noble families..."

http://www.wisdompubs.org/book/middle-l ... anki-sutta" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[thomaslaw]

Hi Kusala

"Kusala wrote:

Some Brahmins held the Buddha in high regard...the Brahmin, Cankti, for instance...

"...When this was said, the brahmin Cankī told those brahmins: “Now, sirs, hear from me why it is proper for me to go to see Master Gotama, and why it is not proper for Master Gotama to come to see me. Sirs, the recluse Gotama is well born on both sides, of pure maternal and paternal descent seven generations back, unassailable and impeccable in respect of birth. Since this is so, sirs, it is not proper for Master Gotama to come to see me; rather, it is proper for me to go to see Master Gotama.

Sirs, the recluse Gotama went forth abandoning much gold and bullion stored away in vaults and depositories. Sirs, the recluse Gotama went forth from the home life into homelessness while still young, a black-haired young man endowed with the blessing of youth, in the prime of life.

Sirs, the recluse Gotama shaved off his hair and beard, put on the yellow robe, and went forth from the home life into homelessness though his mother and father wished otherwise and wept with tearful faces. Sirs, the recluse Gotama is handsome, comely, and graceful, possessing supreme beauty of complexion, [167] with sublime beauty and sublime presence, remarkable to behold.

Sirs, the recluse Gotama is virtuous, with noble virtue, with wholesome virtue, possessing wholesome virtue. Sirs, the recluse Gotama is a good speaker with a good delivery; he speaks words that are courteous, distinct, flawless, and communicate the meaning. Sirs, the recluse Gotama is a teacher of the teachers of many. Sirs, the recluse Gotama is free from sensual lust and without personal vanity. Sirs, the recluse Gotama holds the doctrine of the moral efficacy of action, the doctrine of the moral efficacy of deeds; he does not seek any harm for the line of brahmins. Sirs, the recluse Gotama went forth from an aristocratic family, from one of the original noble families..."

http://www.wisdompubs.org/book/middle-l" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... anki-sutta
--

Yes, this is very high regard, including the Buddha's appearance! But it does not imply the Buddha looks like an Aryan person: '... a black-haired ...'

Regards,

Thomas

[Diego Hemken]

A samana is someone who lives in poverty. They do not wear cosmetics, jewelery, or fancy clothing. They do not bathe a lot. They wear just about the most basic clothing possible, a robe, often made of discarded rags and whatnot. They do not even sit on high chairs. Their food an shelter is by default meager. They do not enjoy entertainment, women, slaves, food at the wrong time, etc. They do not raise a family.

I think for all of these reasons it is easy to see why a Brahman, unaware of the attainments and nobility of the Buddha, would call a samana an outcaste. Being a samana is basically being a bum. A bum who is dedicated to sila and jhana, but still a bum.

[thomaslaw]

A samana is someone who lives in poverty. They do not wear cosmetics, jewelery, or fancy clothing. They do not bathe a lot. They wear just about the most basic clothing possible, a robe, often made of discarded rags and whatnot. They do not even sit on high chairs. Their food an shelter is by default meager. They do not enjoy entertainment, women, slaves, food at the wrong time, etc. They do not raise a family.

I think for all of these reasons it is easy to see why a Brahman, unaware of the attainments and nobility of the Buddha, would call a samana an outcaste. Being a samana is basically being a bum. A bum who is dedicated to sila and jhana, but still a bum.

Hi Diego,

This is a good point! A samana being a bum is regarded as vasala 'outcaste' (or ca.n.daala) by the Brahman.

Thomas

[frank k]

On a related question, why are there no buddha images and statues where he looks like a bhikkhu wearing a vinaya compliant robe and hair that is less than 1 inch long?

Here's one a friend pointed out where the Buddha at least has a shaved head that looks like a bhikkhu. But the robe, not compliant:

http://www.art.com/products/p12260749/p ... s&stp=true" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Are there any others existing out there?