StormBorn wrote: ↑
Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:53 pm
Now, if you say MN 111 is late, that’s totally fine since “0” parallels
and the content fails horribly against multiple points of Dhamma.
I don't have the knowledge to analyse this linguistically but a quick look finds "adhimokkho" to be alien to the suttas and the use of "vipassana" seems unusual (although not fatally) because the seeing the arising (uppajjanti), persisting (upaṭṭhahanti) and subsiding (abbhatthaṃ) of those nama dhamma (namely, contact, feeling, perception, intention, mind, enthusiasm, decision, energy, mindfulness and attention) is called sati-sampajaññā in suttas such as AN 4.41. That is, the words uppajjanti, upaṭṭhahanti and abbhatthaṃ appears also in AN 4.41 and refer to the same "perfection of sati-sampajaññā". However, due to this point about AN 4.41, I have never sensed it "fails horribly" against multiple points of Dhamma. In fact, I always found the sutta is Dhammically authentic (but it won't be for those that believe they practise "suppression jhana"). For those that practise jhana as taught by the Buddha (in SN 48.9 and 10; and MN 118) where "letting go" (vossagga) is the meditation object, MN 111 does not sound alien; particularly the phrase: "Discerned there is an escape beyond
". I will respond to the OP.
Stillness wrote: ↑
Wed Dec 30, 2015 1:21 pm
MN 111 (Anupada Sutta) is the commentarial reference of anupadadhammavipassana (Insight into states in successive order by way of the meditative attainments and the jhana factors). According to this Sutta Ven. Sariputta managed to accomplish the below tasks while in the jhana.
1) He defined each mental states one by one as they occurred.
2) He was aware of the mental states arising, their presence, and their disappearance.
3) He understood thus, "So indeed, these states, not having been, come into being; having been, they vanish. There is an escape beyond, and with the cultivation of that [attainment]." He confirmed that there is.
That's a lot of mind movements (thinking) for a person in a jhana! And, he did so for all four jhanas, and also for the first three immaterial attainments.
It seems the above post is imputing "Mahasi Vipassana" ideas onto MN 111. MN 111 uses the words "arising (uppajjanti), persisting (upaṭṭhahanti) and subsiding (abbhatthaṃ)", which in AN 4.41 describe the perfection of sati-sampajanna. Therefore, the idea that these nama-dhamma in MN 111 are rapidly arising & passing Mahasi-style seems a misinterpretation. All that appears said here is when these nama-dhamma may operate in a salient way or relax, this is discerned as soon as it happens.
Stillness wrote: ↑
Wed Dec 30, 2015 1:21 pm
Evidence that this Sutta is later added:
1) Only available in Pali Canon. No parallel versions in Chinese Agamas.
2) Added extra factors after the standard jhana factors without the Pali conjunction 'ca' (and):
phasso vedanā saññā cetanā cittaṃ chando adhimokkho vīriyaṃ sati upekkhā manasikāro.
'Ca' is not used in SN 12.2 when vedanā, saññā, cetanā, phasso, manasikāro are mentioned. Since these 'scholars' hold idiosycratic views about what 'nama-rupa' is in SN 12.2, the impression is these idiosycratic views impact upon their views of what vedanā, saññā, cetanā, phasso, manasikāro refers to in MN 111.
3) Addition of upekkhā as an extra factor to all four jhanas (twice in the fourth). In other Suttas, upekkhā only mentioned for the fourth jhana.
Upekkha would be discernible in each jhana when "letting go" is used to attained jhana (per SN 48.9 and 10).
4) The factor 'adhimokkho' (decision) never appear anywhere in first four Nikayas. It's an Abhidhamma term that only appears in Paṭisambhidāmaggapāḷi & Abhidhammapiṭaka.
Sure. The smoking gun or WTC Building 7. But this does not make MN 111 fail horribly against multiple points of Dhamma.
5) The Commentary gives the name anupadadhammavipassana to Ven. Sariputta's method, which played a big role especially in later dry Vipassana circles. One example is Mahasi Sayadaw's meditation manual.
The above is as I suspected and already mentioned above. MN 111 appears unrelated to Mahasi vipassana. The term "vipassana" in MN 111 appears to equate with the perfection of "sati-sampajanna" in AN 4.41.
Later in the Sutta, for the fourth immaterial attainment, it says, "He emerged mindful from that attainment. Having done so, he contemplated [samanupassati] the states that had passed, ceased, and changed," which is the correct way of insight for any jhana since no contemplation is possible in a jhana (see DN 2 & AN 3.101).
EDIT: 2017 April 07
The below quote is from pg. 121 of Early Buddhist Meditation Studies
by Ven. Anālayo
To cultivate such awareness of these mental qualities arising and disappearing while being in an absorption is impossible, because the very presence of these qualities is required for there to be an absorption in the first place and for it to continue being a state of absorption.24
This has in fact already been pointed out by Vetter 1988: 69: “it is certainly not possible to observe, as is stated in the text, the disappearance of these qualities in any of these states [i.e., the absorptions], because they are constituted by these qualities.”
While the above conclusions are logical, they might be too literal. While I can't counter the above conclusions, I would apply more thought to it; such as reflecting on this teaching from the perspective of the 3rd development in AN 4.41. Also, the key word here "vidita" probably should be examined. In short, my impression, as said, is the commentators are imputing Mahasi ideas onto the sutta rather than AN 4.41.