[MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
Stillness
Posts: 27
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2015 9:54 am

[MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by Stillness » Wed Dec 30, 2015 1:21 pm

MN 111 (Anupada Sutta) is the commentarial reference of Anupadadhammavipassana (Insight into states in successive order by way of the meditative attainments and the jhana factors). According to this Sutta Ven. Sariputta managed to accomplish the below tasks while in the jhana.

1) He defined each mental states one by one as they occurred.
2) He was aware of the mental states arising, their presence, and their disappearance.
3) He understood thus, "So indeed, these states, not having been, come into being; having been, they vanish. There is an escape beyond, and with the cultivation of that [attainment]." He confirmed that there is.

That's a lot of mind movements (thinking) for a person in a jhana! And, he did so for all four jhanas, and also for the first three immaterial attainments.

Evidence that this Sutta is later added:
1) Only available in Pali Canon. No parallel versions in Chinese Agamas.
2) Added extra factors after the standard jhana factors without the Pali conjunction 'ca' (and):
phasso vedanā saññā cetanā cittaṃ chando adhimokkho vīriyaṃ sati upekkhā manasikāro.
3) Addition of upekkhā as an extra factor to all four jhanas (twice in the fourth). In other Suttas, upekkhā only mentioned for the fourth jhana.
4) The factor 'adhimokkho' (decision) never appear anywhere in first four Nikayas. It's an Abhidhamma term that only appears in Paṭisambhidāmaggapāḷi & Abhidhammapiṭaka.
5) The Commentary gives the name anupadadhammavipassana to Ven. Sariputta's method, which played a big role especially in later dry Vipassana circles. One example is Mahasi Sayadaw's meditation manual.

Later in the Sutta, for the fourth immaterial attainment, it says, "He emerged mindful from that attainment. Having done so, he contemplated the states that had passed, ceased, and changed," which is the correct way of insight for any jhana since no contemplation is possible in a jhana (see DN 2 & AN 3.101).

EDIT: 2017 April 07
The below quote is from pg. 121 of Early Buddhist Meditation Studies by Ven. Anālayo
To cultivate such awareness of these mental qualities arising and disappearing while being in an absorption is impossible, because the very presence of these qualities is required for there to be an absorption in the first place and for it to continue being a state of absorption.24

__________
24 This has in fact already been pointed out by Vetter 1988: 69: “it is certainly not possible to observe, as is stated in the text, the disappearance of these qualities in any of these states [i.e., the absorptions], because they are constituted by these qualities.”
Last edited by Stillness on Fri Apr 07, 2017 1:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

dhammarelax
Posts: 1087
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2014 7:59 pm

Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by dhammarelax » Wed Dec 30, 2015 1:32 pm

Stillness wrote:MN 111 (Anupada Sutta) is the commentarial reference of Anupadadhammavipassana (Insight into states in successive order by way of the meditative attainments and the jhana factors). According to this Sutta Ven. Sariputta managed to accomplish the below tasks while in the jhana.

1) He defined each mental states one by one as they occurred.
2) He was aware of the mental states arising, their presence, and their disappearance.
3) He understood thus, "So indeed, these states, not having been, come into being; having been, they vanish. There is an escape beyond, and with the cultivation of that [attainment]." He confirmed that there is.

That's a lot of mind movements (thinking) for a person in a jhana! And, he did so for all four jhanas, and also for the first three immaterial attainments.

Evidence that this Sutta is later added:
1) Only available in Pali Canon. No parallel versions in Chinese Agamas.
2) Added extra factors after the standard jhana factors without the Pali conjunction 'ca' (and):
phasso vedanā saññā cetanā cittaṃ chando adhimokkho vīriyaṃ sati upekkhā manasikāro.
3) Addition of upekkhā as an extra factor to all four jhanas (twice in the fourth). In other Suttas, upekkhā only mentioned for the fourth jhana.
4) The factor 'adhimokkho' (decision) never appear anywhere in first four Nikayas. It's an Abhidhamma term that only appears in Paṭisambhidāmaggapāḷi & Abhidhammapiṭaka.
5) The Commentary gives the name anupadadhammavipassana to Ven. Sariputta's method, which played a big role especially in later dry Vipassana circles. One example is Mahasi Sayadaw's meditation manual.

Later in the Sutta, for the fourth immaterial attainment, it says, "He emerged mindful from that attainment. Having done so, he contemplated the states that had passed, ceased, and changed," which is the correct way of insight for any jhana since no contemplation is possible in a jhana (see DN 2 & AN 3.101).
Hi Stillness

How can that be if MN 149.10 : "These two things - serenity - (samatha) and insight (vipassanā) - occur in him yoked evenly together."? Speaking from my own experience, Vipassana and Jhana are yoked together, using the 4 noble truths as your frame of reference for mindfulness you will observe the links of dependent origination and progress in the different Jhanas.

Smile all the time
dhammarelax
Even if the flesh & blood in my body dry up, leaving just the skin, tendons, & bones, I will use all my human firmness, human persistence and human striving. There will be no relaxing my persistence until I am the first of my generation to attain full awakening in this lifetime. ed. AN 2.5

WorldTraveller
Posts: 77
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2015 11:07 am

Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by WorldTraveller » Wed Dec 30, 2015 2:17 pm

dhammarelax wrote: Hi Stillness

How can that be if MN 149.10 : "These two things - serenity - (samatha) and insight (vipassanā) - occur in him yoked evenly together."? Speaking from my own experience, Vipassana and Jhana are yoked together, using the 4 noble truths as your frame of reference for mindfulness you will observe the links of dependent origination and progress in the different Jhanas.

Smile all the time
dhammarelax
Serenity - (samatha) not necessarily means solely jhana. It can be the samadhi of jhana and the samadhi after the jhana (a mind without hindrances which used for vipassana).

Stillness
Posts: 27
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2015 9:54 am

Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by Stillness » Thu Dec 31, 2015 11:15 am

dhammarelax wrote:How can that be if MN 149.10 : "These two things - serenity - (samatha) and insight (vipassanā) - occur in him yoked evenly together."? Speaking from my own experience, Vipassana and Jhana are yoked together, using the 4 noble truths as your frame of reference for mindfulness you will observe the links of dependent origination and progress in the different Jhanas.
Interestingly, only that specific "these two things—serenity and insight—occur in him yoked evenly together," sentence doesn't appear in the Chinese Āgama parallel.

But, "And what things should be developed by direct knowledge? Serenity and insight. These are the things that should be developed by direct knowledge." can be seen in both Pali and Chinese.

Can you kindly provide me a Sutta reference for "Vipassana and Jhana are yoked together" claim?

If you look at MN 38.31 and specially DN 2.83, insight (yathābhūta) arises after the jhana and based on the serenity of the jhana, not in it. Also, according to AN 3.101.45, one has to let go of even the dhammavitakka in order to obtain a jhana.

dhammarelax
Posts: 1087
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2014 7:59 pm

Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by dhammarelax » Fri Jan 01, 2016 5:42 pm

Stillness wrote:
dhammarelax wrote:How can that be if MN 149.10 : "These two things - serenity - (samatha) and insight (vipassanā) - occur in him yoked evenly together."? Speaking from my own experience, Vipassana and Jhana are yoked together, using the 4 noble truths as your frame of reference for mindfulness you will observe the links of dependent origination and progress in the different Jhanas.
Interestingly, only that specific "these two things—serenity and insight—occur in him yoked evenly together," sentence doesn't appear in the Chinese Āgama parallel.

But, "And what things should be developed by direct knowledge? Serenity and insight. These are the things that should be developed by direct knowledge." can be seen in both Pali and Chinese.

Can you kindly provide me a Sutta reference for "Vipassana and Jhana are yoked together" claim?

If you look at MN 38.31 and specially DN 2.83, insight (yathābhūta) arises after the jhana and based on the serenity of the jhana, not in it. Also, according to AN 3.101.45, one has to let go of even the dhammavitakka in order to obtain a jhana.

I am not aware of a Sutta reference for that, however it seems that one interpretation suggests that Samatha and Jhana are closely related, eg: from http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el351.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Jhana and Samadhi

In the vocabulary of Buddhist meditation the word "jhana" is closely connected with another word, "samadhi" generally rendered by "concentration." Samadhi derives from the prefixed verbal root sam-a-dha, meaning to collect or to bring together, thus suggesting the concentration or unification of the mind. The word "samadhi" is almost interchangeable with the word "samatha," serenity, though the latter comes from a different root, sam, meaning to become calm.

In the suttas samadhi is defined as mental one-pointedness, (cittass'ekaggata M.i,301) and this definition is followed through rigorously in the Abhidhamma. The Abhidhamma treats one-pointedness as a distinct mental factor present in every state of consciousness, exercising the function of unifying the mind on its object. From this strict psychological standpoint samadhi can be present in unwholesome states of consciousness as well as in wholesome an neutral states. In its unwholesome forms it is called "wrong concentration" (micchasamadhi), In its wholesome forms "right concentration" (sammasamadhi).

In expositions on the practice of meditation, however, samadhi is limited to one-pointedness of mind (Vism.84-85; PP.84-85), and even here we can understand from the context that the word means only the wholesome one-pointedness involved in the deliberate transmutation of the mind to a heightened level of calm. Thus Buddhaghosa explains samadhi etymologically as "the centering of consciousness and consciousness concomitants evenly and rightly on a single object... the state in virtue of which consciousness and its concomitants remain evenly and rightly on a single object, undistracted and unscattered" (Vism.84-85; PP.85).

However, despite the commentator's bid for consistency, the word samadhi is used in the Pali literature on meditation with varying degrees of specificity of meaning. In the narrowest sense, as defined by Buddhaghosa, it denotes the particular mental factor responsible for the concentrating of the mind, namely, one-pointedness. In a wider sense it can signify the states of unified consciousness that result from the strengthening of concentration, i.e., the meditative attainments of serenity and the stages leading up to them. And in a still wider sense the word samadhi can be applied to the method of practice used to produce and cultivate these refined states of concentration, here being equivalent to the development of serenity.

It is in the second sense that samadhi and jhana come closest in meaning. The Buddha explains right concentration as the four jhanas (D.ii,313), and in doing so allows concentration to encompass the meditative attainments signified by the jhanas. However, even though jhana and samadhi can overlap in denotation, certain differences in their suggested and contextual meanings prevent unqualified identification of the two terms. First behind the Buddha's use of the jhana formula to explain right concentration lies a more technical understanding of the terms. According to this understanding samadhi can be narrowed down in range to signify only one mental factor, the most prominent in the jhana, namely, one-pointedness, while the word "jhana" itself must be seen as encompassing the state of consciousness in its entirety, or at least the whole group of mental factors individuating that meditative state as a jhana. "

Smile all the time
dhammarelax
Even if the flesh & blood in my body dry up, leaving just the skin, tendons, & bones, I will use all my human firmness, human persistence and human striving. There will be no relaxing my persistence until I am the first of my generation to attain full awakening in this lifetime. ed. AN 2.5

dhammarelax
Posts: 1087
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2014 7:59 pm

Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by dhammarelax » Fri Jan 01, 2016 5:46 pm

WorldTraveller wrote:
dhammarelax wrote: Hi Stillness

How can that be if MN 149.10 : "These two things - serenity - (samatha) and insight (vipassanā) - occur in him yoked evenly together."? Speaking from my own experience, Vipassana and Jhana are yoked together, using the 4 noble truths as your frame of reference for mindfulness you will observe the links of dependent origination and progress in the different Jhanas.

Smile all the time
dhammarelax
Serenity - (samatha) not necessarily means solely jhana. It can be the samadhi of jhana and the samadhi after the jhana (a mind without hindrances which used for vipassana).
To be honest never thought of that possibility, thanks for pointing it out, what do you think of AN4.12 (https://suttacentral.net/en/an4.12" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) where this: " if his mind is concentrated and one-pointed, then that bhikkhu is said to be ardent and to dread wrongdoing; he is constantly and continuously energetic and resolute while walking." suggests that Jhana can be achieved even while walking?

smile all the time
dhammarelax
Even if the flesh & blood in my body dry up, leaving just the skin, tendons, & bones, I will use all my human firmness, human persistence and human striving. There will be no relaxing my persistence until I am the first of my generation to attain full awakening in this lifetime. ed. AN 2.5

Sylvester
Posts: 2205
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by Sylvester » Sat Jan 02, 2016 4:31 am

The reference in AN 4.12 to the mind being concentrated and one-pointed (samāhitaṃ cittaṃ ekaggaṃ) occurs in many other places. Check out SN 47.4, where there is no mistaking it is referring to the establishments of mindfulness.

Take a look also at AN 3.130 where the pericope appears in the context of divine vision. Given that elsewhere, the pericopes on divine vision invariably show it being exercised after the jhanas (through the use of the locative absolute formed with past participles), AN 3.130 suggests that the mind is also concentrated and one-pointed after the jhanas, an observation confirmed by AN 9.35 (but only if you avoid Ven Thanissaro's unfortunate mistranslation).

In fact, if you scan thru SuttaCentral for the pericope, you will find it typically tucked right in between the mindfulness/tranquillisation exercises and the 1st jhana pericope.

Hope that helps.

User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6545
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by Cittasanto » Sat Jan 02, 2016 7:50 am

Stillness wrote:MN 111 (Anupada Sutta) is the commentarial reference of Anupadadhammavipassana (Insight into states in successive order by way of the meditative attainments and the jhana factors). According to this Sutta Ven. Sariputta managed to accomplish the below tasks while in the jhana.

1) He defined each mental states one by one as they occurred.
2) He was aware of the mental states arising, their presence, and their disappearance.
3) He understood thus, "So indeed, these states, not having been, come into being; having been, they vanish. There is an escape beyond, and with the cultivation of that [attainment]." He confirmed that there is.

That's a lot of mind movements (thinking) for a person in a jhana! And, he did so for all four jhanas, and also for the first three immaterial attainments.

Evidence that this Sutta is later added:
1) Only available in Pali Canon. No parallel versions in Chinese Agamas.
2) Added extra factors after the standard jhana factors without the Pali conjunction 'ca' (and):
phasso vedanā saññā cetanā cittaṃ chando adhimokkho vīriyaṃ sati upekkhā manasikāro.
3) Addition of upekkhā as an extra factor to all four jhanas (twice in the fourth). In other Suttas, upekkhā only mentioned for the fourth jhana.
4) The factor 'adhimokkho' (decision) never appear anywhere in first four Nikayas. It's an Abhidhamma term that only appears in Paṭisambhidāmaggapāḷi & Abhidhammapiṭaka.
5) The Commentary gives the name anupadadhammavipassana to Ven. Sariputta's method, which played a big role especially in later dry Vipassana circles. One example is Mahasi Sayadaw's meditation manual.

Later in the Sutta, for the fourth immaterial attainment, it says, "He emerged mindful from that attainment. Having done so, he contemplated the states that had passed, ceased, and changed," which is the correct way of insight for any jhana since no contemplation is possible in a jhana (see DN 2 & AN 3.101).
Does any of this correspond to any other text?
AN 9.44 Paññavimutti Sutta: Released Through Discernment translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu wrote:[Udayin:] "'Released through discernment, released through discernment,' it is said. To what extent is one described by the Blessed One as released through discernment?"

[Ananda:] "There is the case, my friend, where a monk, withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. And he knows it through discernment. It is to this extent that one is described by the Blessed One as released through discernment, though with a sequel.

"Furthermore, with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana... the third jhana... the fourth jhana... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness... the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. And he knows it through discernment. It is to this extent that one is described by the Blessed One as released through discernment, though with a sequel.

"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, he enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. And as he sees with discernment, the mental fermentations go to their total end. And he knows it through discernment. It is to this extent that one is described by the Blessed One as released through discernment without a sequel."
There not being discursive thought does not equate to lacking thought completely i.e. by means of focused observation where there is knowing what is going on.
Remember the Jhana's are not defined in hard and fast terms hence there are some drastic differences in interpretation. they are all true phenomena, and possible interpretations of the Jhana. as an example Ajahn Brahm's teachings are based on the sutta's yet they are very close to compartmental interpretations.

as has already been pointed out the two forms of samadhi & panna should go in tandem AN 4.170 DHP 327

Kind Regards
Cittasanto.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

Sylvester
Posts: 2205
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by Sylvester » Sat Jan 02, 2016 2:04 pm

Hi Cittasanto

While the English translation may suggest the contemporaneity of insight with the attainments, that is not the case with Pali grammar's treatment of such passages.

I'm sure you are aware of the periphrastic construction composed of upasampajja viharati (he dwells having entered). Where the auxiliary verb is viharati, the periphrasis is intended to convey the durative aspect of the attainment and does not admit any temporal leakage of the subsequent verbs into the periphrasis. This can be clearly seen by the exposition on the attainment of Cessation, where it is clearly impossible for the "seeing" to occur in the utter absence of perception.

One does not even be acquainted with this grammatical nugget to see that the subsequent verbs are not contemporaneous with the periphrastic construction. The standard sutta idiom to achieve this is instead found in eg
Tassa mayhaṃ, ānanda, iminā vihārena viharato clauses found in AN 9.41. What is obvious in this sutta is that the idiom is used only in the 8 attainments but is glaringly absent in describing the "seeing" in respect of Cessation.

In brief, the vipassana verbs are required by Pali grammar to be temporally disjunct from the jhana periphrases, unless the subsequent clauses/sentences are prefaced by that special idiom to spill over into the periphrasis. No such sutta using that idiom exists that links a Jhana with vipassana.

User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6545
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by Cittasanto » Sat Jan 02, 2016 3:03 pm

Sylvester wrote:Hi Cittasanto

While the English translation may suggest the contemporaneity of insight with the attainments
Thanks sylvester
I should of checked the pali.

Kind Regards
Cittasanto
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 15230
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Jan 02, 2016 3:46 pm


Phena
Posts: 469
Joined: Sat May 26, 2012 6:40 am

Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by Phena » Sun Jan 03, 2016 4:12 am

  • "Now what is concentration, lady, what qualities are its themes, what qualities are its requisites, and what is its development?"

    "Singleness of mind is concentration, friend Visakha; the four frames of reference are its themes; the four right exertions are its requisites; and any cultivation, development, & pursuit of these qualities is its development."
MN 44

As the Right Concentration that Dhammadinna is referring to is classified as the four jhanas in the Eightfold Path, and Satipatthana is the theme of Right Concentration, then it is clear from this sutta that insight is cultivated and arises within jhana.

Sylvester
Posts: 2205
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by Sylvester » Sun Jan 03, 2016 4:35 am

That presupposes that Ven T is correct in rendering nimitta as "theme". As with his other neologisms, the task is on him to explain why not render it as "cause", when the picture that emerges from Textual Criticism is that the early meaning of samma sati is a samatha development.

Phena
Posts: 469
Joined: Sat May 26, 2012 6:40 am

Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by Phena » Sun Jan 03, 2016 6:50 am

I take your point Sylvester that it is rendered differently in different translations as the basis or causes for Right Concentration as found here on Sutta Central. However, if one is using the Four Establishments of Mindfulness as the basis for concentration (jhana) as opposed to say a kasina as the cause for concentration, then it isn't it likely that when Satipatthana is the theme, insight will arise out of this when samadhi is established? Bhikkhu Bodhi elaborates here in his talk on MN44 that this is the case, from about 36 minutes in. To quote him directly he says:

  • " ... the concentrated mind forms the instrument for developing insight or wisdom, and so, in some of the Indian systems samadhi seems to be an end in its self; the goal is to get into these deep meditative absorptions; but in the Buddhists training, one first develops the samadhi, the mental unification, and then one uses that unified mind in order to investigate and examine the nature of the body and the mind, in order to see them directly and gain intuitive insight."

Obviously it's important to note he makes the distinction between how samadhi was/is used in other Indian traditions and the Buddhist tradition, and that is the use of samadhi (jhana) as a vehicle for insight.

Sylvester
Posts: 2205
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by Sylvester » Sun Jan 03, 2016 6:56 am

Of course BB is correct. But do you know of any sutta pericope where the concentration clauses are locative absolutes formed with present participles, before the lead to the vipassana clauses? All I can find are past participles, indicating that vipassana occurs after the jhanas. I would be curious to see an exception to these pericopes.

Phena
Posts: 469
Joined: Sat May 26, 2012 6:40 am

Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by Phena » Sun Jan 03, 2016 7:45 am

I'm not quite sure what "locative absolutes" and "past participles" are.

All in all, I figure you are saying that you can't find any sutta reference where it says categorically insight arises within jhana (samadhi)?

I only know of MN44 which I quoted above and the Yuganaddha Sutta. However, this sutta mentions samatha (yoked with vipassana) which is not samadhi.

As you are very knowledgeable on the suttas Sylvester, I trust you are correct.

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 15230
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Jan 03, 2016 9:35 am

Hi Sylvester,

You may have already addressed this, but let me quote Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation and ask about the higher attainments.

Though the Jhanas and most of the immaterial attainments we have this pattern:
15. “Again, bhikkhus, by completely surmounting the base of infinite consciousness, aware that ‘there is nothing,’ Sāriputta entered upon and abided in the base of nothingness.
 
16. “And the states in the base of nothingness—the perception of the base of nothingness and the unification of mind; the contact, feeling, perception, volition, and mind; the zeal, decision, energy, mindfulness, equanimity, and attention—these states were defined by him one by one as they occurred; known to him those states arose, known they were present, known they disappeared. He understood thus:…and with the cultivation of that [attainment], he confirmed that there is.
I take it that you think this might be better translated as:
"[Having experienced the base of nothingness and emerged], he defined the states that had occurred..."

However, an argument for the "vipassana within jhana" is that the description changes for the base of neither perception-nor-non-perception, which would be more like my rendering above:
17. “Again, bhikkhus, by completely surmounting the base of nothingness, Sāriputta entered upon and abided in the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception.

18. “He emerged mindful from that attainment. Having done so, he contemplated the states that had passed, ceased, and changed, thus: ‘So indeed, these states, not having been, come into being; having been, they vanish.’ [1051] Regarding those states, he abided unattracted, unrepelled, independent, detached, free, dissociated, with a mind rid of barriers. He understood: ‘There is an escape beyond,’ and with the cultivation of that [attainment], he confirmed that there is.
BB's note does mention that this is a particularly subtle state, so perhaps that is the reason for the change in pattern.

Here's the last attainment, just for completeness:
19. “Again, bhikkhus, by completely surmounting the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, Sāriputta entered upon and abided in the cessation of perception and feeling. And his taints were destroyed by his seeing with wisdom.[1052]

20. “He emerged mindful from that attainment. Having done so, he recalled the states that had passed, ceased, and changed, thus: ‘So indeed, these states, not having been, come into being; having been, they vanish.’ [1053] Regarding those states, he abided unattracted, unrepelled, independent, detached, free, dissociated, with a mind rid of barriers. He understood: ‘There is no escape beyond,’ and with the cultivation of that [attainment], he confirmed that there is not. [1054]
BB's Notes

[1051] This indirect introspective method must be used to contemplate the fourth immaterial attainment because this attainment, being extremely subtle, does not enter into the direct range of investigation for disciples. Only fully enlightened Buddhas are able to contemplate it directly.
 
[1052] MA offers this explanation of the passage, transmitted by “the elders of India”: “The Elder Sāriputta cultivated serenity and insight in paired conjunction and realised the fruit of non-returning. Then he entered the attainment ofcessation, and after emerging from it he attained arahantship.”
 
[1053] Since there are no mental factors in the attainment of cessation, MA says that “these states” here must refer either to the states of material form that were occurring while he attained cessation, or to the mental factors of the preceding fourth immaterial attainment.
 
[1054] Note the realisation that there is “no escape beyond” the attainment of arahantship.
:anjali:
Mike

Sylvester
Posts: 2205
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by Sylvester » Sun Jan 03, 2016 9:59 am

Hi Mike.

I'm on my phone now, so give me some time. But I believe I have addressed this in a thread with Bakmoon ( I think ) some time back. Let me see if I can locate it.

Edit - found the old thread on MN 111 - http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 80#p222451" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I may have some more to say about the translation but that's it for now.
Last edited by Sylvester on Sun Jan 03, 2016 10:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

Sylvester
Posts: 2205
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by Sylvester » Sun Jan 03, 2016 10:02 am

Phena wrote:I'm not quite sure what "locative absolutes" and "past participles" are.

All in all, I figure you are saying that you can't find any sutta reference where it says categorically insight arises within jhana (samadhi)?

I only know of MN44 which I quoted above and the Yuganaddha Sutta. However, this sutta mentions samatha (yoked with vipassana) which is not samadhi.

As you are very knowledgeable on the suttas Sylvester, I trust you are correct.
Whatever you do, don't trust me. Audit my claim and you can start here - https://books.google.com.sg/books?id=5z ... le&f=false" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In the Constant Jhana thread, I had spilt some ink on this grammatical point in relation to the pericopes on jhana and the psychic powers. Could you try searching that out?

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 15230
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Jan 03, 2016 10:42 am

Sylvester wrote:Hi Mike.

I'm on my phone now, so give me some time. But I believe I have addressed this in a thread with Bakmoon ( I think ) some time back. Let me see if I can locate it.

Edit - found the old thread on MN 111 - http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 80#p222451" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I may have some more to say about the translation but that's it for now.
Thanks, that helps but it's still not completely clear to me why the change for the description of the perception-nor-non-perception attainment, though I guess BB's note explains it reasonably well.

Mike

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests