If we consider samādhi/samatha as the whole mountain ("Samadhi is the Path" - AN 6.64), then jhāna is the peak. As you know, a peak has an ascending slope and a descending slope. We can equate the first 7 factors of the Noble Eightfold Path to this ascending slope. Then, the 8th factor is the peak. The descending slope is where the mind remains hindrance free after emerging from the jhāna. The hindrance free duration will depend on the strength of the jhāna. Most importantly, this descending slope is where the insights arise, and also used for psychic powers, if one wishes.dhammarelax wrote:I am not aware of a Sutta reference for that, however it seems that one interpretation suggests that Samatha and Jhana are closely related, eg: from http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el351.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.
Now, some later texts expressed the view that whatever samādhi available in the ascending slope (especially closer to the peak) is suffice for vipassanā. They called this as upacāra samādhi. I think, this is why U Ba Kin in his instructions advised meditators to gain nimitta from the ānāpanasati before turning to vipassanā (see Living Buddhist Masters by Jack Kornfield). Apart from the Buddha never recommended it, there's no way of knowing whether this so-called upacāra samādhi is actually closer to the peak or not unless one continues and get absorbed into a jhāna.Again, a monk, having given up pleasure and pain, and with the disappearance of former gladness and sadness, enters and remains in the fourth jhāna...
‘And so, with mind concentrated, purified and cleansed, unblemished, free from impurities, malleable, workable, established, and having gained imperturbability, he takes out (abhinīharati) and inclines (abhininnāmeti) his mind towards knowing and seeing (insight). And he knows: “This my body is material, made up from the four great elements, born of mother and father, fed on rice and gruel, impermanent, liable to be injured and abraded, broken and destroyed, and this is my consciousness which is bound to it and dependent on it.”
And he, with mind concentrated, ... having gained imperturbability, takes out and inclines his mind to the production of a mind-made body. And out of this body he produces another body, having a form, mind-made, complete in all its limbs and faculties.
- DN 2
Evidently, we can see some even labeling this upacāra samādhi as a jhāna where all their six sensors function as in a non-jhāna state, eg. hearing sounds or thinking. I think the issue is due to some preferences or biases, practitioners grasp an experience which is not the actual. Then they will interpret the Dhamma to suit their grasping, or even take adhamma as proof of their grasping. The Buddha's "elephant foot simile" comes to my mind. Unless one keeps an open mind it'll be a very difficult to reach the biggest footprint.
As Sylvester already pointed out, this refers to after the jhānas. See in the light of above quoted DN 2, where insight and psychic powers achieved having taken the mind out of the jhāna. No walking in jhānas.dhammarelax wrote:To be honest never thought of that possibility, thanks for pointing it out, what do you think of AN4.12 (https://suttacentral.net/en/an4.12" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; " if his mind is concentrated and one-pointed, then that bhikkhu is said to be ardent and to dread wrongdoing; he is constantly and continuously energetic and resolute while walking." suggests that Jhana can be achieved even while walking?
Can you be more specific?Cittasanto wrote:Does any of this correspond to any other text?
Be cautious regarding Ven. Thanissaro's English translations. I noticed on multiple occasions there's a bias of interpretation when come to suttas regarding meditation. I suggest you to compare his interpretations directly with Pāli suttas before taking them as evidence for what you're claiming.Cittasanto wrote:There not being discursive thought does not equate to lacking thought completely i.e. by means of focused observation where there is knowing what is going on.AN 9.44 Paññavimutti Sutta: Released Through Discernment translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu wrote:[Udayin:] "'Released through discernment, released through discernment,' it is said. To what extent is one described by the Blessed One as released through discernment?"
[Ananda:] "There is the case, my friend, where a monk, withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. And he knows it through discernment. It is to this extent that one is described by the Blessed One as released through discernment, though with a sequel.
"Furthermore, with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana... the third jhana... the fourth jhana... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness... the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. And he knows it through discernment. It is to this extent that one is described by the Blessed One as released through discernment, though with a sequel.
"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, he enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. And as he sees with discernment, the mental fermentations go to their total end. And he knows it through discernment. It is to this extent that one is described by the Blessed One as released through discernment without a sequel."
Remember the Jhana's are not defined in hard and fast terms hence there are some drastic differences in interpretation. they are all true phenomena, and possible interpretations of the Jhana. as an example Ajahn Brahm's teachings are based on the sutta's yet they are very close to compartmental interpretations.
as has already been pointed out the two forms of samadhi & panna should go in tandem AN 4.170 [url=http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... ml#dhp-372]DHP 327
Regarding, AN 4.170, it's interesting to find out that in the Chinese Āgama parallel, there's no mention of "insight preceded by tranquility" nor "tranquility preceded by insight." But, it has "serenity and insight together," which perfectly accord with what I quoted above from DN 2.
AFAIK, BB''s claim has no base in the suttas. If there's any appreciate a reference.mikenz66 wrote:Thanks, that helps but it's still not completely clear to me why the change for the description of the perception-nor-non-perception attainment, though I guess BB's note explains it reasonably well.BB's Notes
 This indirect introspective method must be used to contemplate the fourth immaterial attainment because this attainment, being extremely subtle, does not enter into the direct range of investigation for disciples. Only fully enlightened Buddhas are able to contemplate it directly.
Something to contemplate: Arūpa jānas existed among Hindus even before the Buddha. The Buddha claimed to master them under two teachers before enlightenment, but he didn't take such absorptions (even the first one) as the basis for his enlightenment since they didn't fulfil Sammā Samādhi and one who has experienced fourth jhāna "know by direct experience" that he gained imperturbability (āneñjappatta), and there's no Sammā Samādhi beyond it (biggest footprint).