[MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
Stillness
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Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by Stillness » Sun Jan 03, 2016 1:40 pm

My answering will be very slow since I use others' devices to go online and that depends on the availability of them and also on my own practice schedule. But, I see there are Sylvester like members who are more available and qualified. :smile:
dhammarelax wrote:I am not aware of a Sutta reference for that, however it seems that one interpretation suggests that Samatha and Jhana are closely related, eg: from http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el351.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.
If we consider samādhi/samatha as the whole mountain ("Samadhi is the Path" - AN 6.64), then jhāna is the peak. As you know, a peak has an ascending slope and a descending slope. We can equate the first 7 factors of the Noble Eightfold Path to this ascending slope. Then, the 8th factor is the peak. The descending slope is where the mind remains hindrance free after emerging from the jhāna. The hindrance free duration will depend on the strength of the jhāna. Most importantly, this descending slope is where the insights arise, and also used for psychic powers, if one wishes.
[81]Again, a monk, having given up pleasure and pain, and with the disappearance of former gladness and sadness, enters and remains in the fourth jhāna...
[83]‘And so, with mind concentrated, purified and cleansed, unblemished, free from impurities, malleable, workable, established, and having gained imperturbability, he takes out (abhinīharati) and inclines (abhininnāmeti) his mind towards knowing and seeing (insight). And he knows: “This my body is material, made up from the four great elements, born of mother and father, fed on rice and gruel, impermanent, liable to be injured and abraded, broken and destroyed, and this is my consciousness which is bound to it and dependent on it.”
[85]And he, with mind concentrated, ... having gained imperturbability, takes out and inclines his mind to the production of a mind-made body. And out of this body he produces another body, having a form, mind-made, complete in all its limbs and faculties.
- DN 2
Now, some later texts expressed the view that whatever samādhi available in the ascending slope (especially closer to the peak) is suffice for vipassanā. They called this as upacāra samādhi. I think, this is why U Ba Kin in his instructions advised meditators to gain nimitta from the ānāpanasati before turning to vipassanā (see Living Buddhist Masters by Jack Kornfield). Apart from the Buddha never recommended it, there's no way of knowing whether this so-called upacāra samādhi is actually closer to the peak or not unless one continues and get absorbed into a jhāna.

Evidently, we can see some even labeling this upacāra samādhi as a jhāna where all their six sensors function as in a non-jhāna state, eg. hearing sounds or thinking. I think the issue is due to some preferences or biases, practitioners grasp an experience which is not the actual. Then they will interpret the Dhamma to suit their grasping, or even take adhamma as proof of their grasping. The Buddha's "elephant foot simile" comes to my mind. Unless one keeps an open mind it'll be a very difficult to reach the biggest footprint.
dhammarelax wrote:To be honest never thought of that possibility, thanks for pointing it out, what do you think of AN4.12 (https://suttacentral.net/en/an4.12" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; " if his mind is concentrated and one-pointed, then that bhikkhu is said to be ardent and to dread wrongdoing; he is constantly and continuously energetic and resolute while walking." suggests that Jhana can be achieved even while walking?
As Sylvester already pointed out, this refers to after the jhānas. See in the light of above quoted DN 2, where insight and psychic powers achieved having taken the mind out of the jhāna. No walking in jhānas.
Cittasanto wrote:Does any of this correspond to any other text?
Can you be more specific?
Cittasanto wrote:
AN 9.44 Paññavimutti Sutta: Released Through Discernment translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu wrote:[Udayin:] "'Released through discernment, released through discernment,' it is said. To what extent is one described by the Blessed One as released through discernment?"

[Ananda:] "There is the case, my friend, where a monk, withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. And he knows it through discernment. It is to this extent that one is described by the Blessed One as released through discernment, though with a sequel.

"Furthermore, with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana... the third jhana... the fourth jhana... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness... the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. And he knows it through discernment. It is to this extent that one is described by the Blessed One as released through discernment, though with a sequel.

"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, he enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. And as he sees with discernment, the mental fermentations go to their total end. And he knows it through discernment. It is to this extent that one is described by the Blessed One as released through discernment without a sequel."
There not being discursive thought does not equate to lacking thought completely i.e. by means of focused observation where there is knowing what is going on.
Remember the Jhana's are not defined in hard and fast terms hence there are some drastic differences in interpretation. they are all true phenomena, and possible interpretations of the Jhana. as an example Ajahn Brahm's teachings are based on the sutta's yet they are very close to compartmental interpretations.

as has already been pointed out the two forms of samadhi & panna should go in tandem AN 4.170 [url=http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... ml#dhp-372]DHP 327
Be cautious regarding Ven. Thanissaro's English translations. I noticed on multiple occasions there's a bias of interpretation when come to suttas regarding meditation. I suggest you to compare his interpretations directly with Pāli suttas before taking them as evidence for what you're claiming.

Regarding, AN 4.170, it's interesting to find out that in the Chinese Āgama parallel, there's no mention of "insight preceded by tranquility" nor "tranquility preceded by insight." But, it has "serenity and insight together," which perfectly accord with what I quoted above from DN 2.
mikenz66 wrote:
BB's Notes
[1051] This indirect introspective method must be used to contemplate the fourth immaterial attainment because this attainment, being extremely subtle, does not enter into the direct range of investigation for disciples. Only fully enlightened Buddhas are able to contemplate it directly.
Thanks, that helps but it's still not completely clear to me why the change for the description of the perception-nor-non-perception attainment, though I guess BB's note explains it reasonably well.
AFAIK, BB''s claim has no base in the suttas. If there's any appreciate a reference.

Something to contemplate: Arūpa jānas existed among Hindus even before the Buddha. The Buddha claimed to master them under two teachers before enlightenment, but he didn't take such absorptions (even the first one) as the basis for his enlightenment since they didn't fulfil Sammā Samādhi and one who has experienced fourth jhāna "know by direct experience" that he gained imperturbability (āneñjappatta), and there's no Sammā Samādhi beyond it (biggest footprint).

Sylvester
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Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by Sylvester » Mon Jan 04, 2016 7:04 am

Hi Mike

I thought I'd attempt to do justice to one of your queries on BB's translation of MN 111, so here goes -
mikenz66 wrote:Hi Sylvester,

You may have already addressed this, but let me quote Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation and ask about the higher attainments.

Though the Jhanas and most of the immaterial attainments we have this pattern:
15. “Again, bhikkhus, by completely surmounting the base of infinite consciousness, aware that ‘there is nothing,’ Sāriputta entered upon and abided in the base of nothingness.
 
16. “And the states in the base of nothingness—the perception of the base of nothingness and the unification of mind; the contact, feeling, perception, volition, and mind; the zeal, decision, energy, mindfulness, equanimity, and attention—these states were defined by him one by one as they occurred; known to him those states arose, known they were present, known they disappeared. He understood thus:…and with the cultivation of that [attainment], he confirmed that there is.
I take it that you think this might be better translated as:
"[Having experienced the base of nothingness and emerged], he defined the states that had occurred..."
In this regard, I would not tweak BB's translation in the manner you offered, since that would entail excising an entire chunk of the passage. However, I would not agree with his translation here (using the 1st jhana passage) -
Ye ca paṭhame jhāne dhammā vitakko ca vicāro ca pīti ca sukhañca cittekaggatā ca, phasso vedanā saññā cetanā cittaṃ chando adhimokkho vīriyaṃ sati upekkhā manasikāro—tyāssa dhammā anupa­da­va­vatthitā honti.

And the states in the first jhana - the applied thought, the sustained thought, the rapture, the pleasure, and the unification of mind; the contact, feeling, perception, volition, and mind; the zeal, decision, energy, mindfulness, equanimity, and attention - these states were defined by him one by one as they occurred.
Here, he follows the Comy on 2 points. Firstly, there is the unspoken premise that vavatthita:[pp.of vavattheti] is used in this sutta in the same sense as it is used in a later text, ie the Paṭisambhidāmagga. This does not necessarily have to be case, since MN 111 gives a clue that the action here is connected with perception simpliciter, given its occurence in only the 7 saññāsamāpattis, and not in the final 2 attainments. Admittedly, this is a weak critique, given that tradition assigns the Paṭisambhidāmagga to Ven Sariputta, so who better a candidate to demonstrate the powers to vavattheti than the author of the textbook on the subject?

Secondly, we see hagiography in assigning to the Buddha and this Chief Disciple as to what seems to be extraordinary powers, ie the power to discriminate in states that are supposed to be bereft of thinking and intention (DN 9).

I would omit "as they occurred" and just make the observation that anupa­da­va­vatthitā honti is a very typical periphrastic construction that can be very simply rendered as "they were defined successively", where honti is just a nice auxillary verb "were". Warder has this to say -
hu as auxiliary has two senses. Firstly the perfective aspect
as in the case of as, but at any time, any point in time (“ future perfect
” , " past-perfect ” — " pluperfect ” ), In this case the
present tense of hu is usually a “ historical ” present expressing
past time, hence whereas as as auxiliary expresses present time
hu is used for past or future time.
p.235
In fact, I would say that the Comy in its hagiographic enthusiasm may have violated 2 central commentarial conceptions of the mind, ie momentariness and the doctrine of universals. Each citta being momentary and containing the universals contact, unification, attention, vitality (jīvitindriya which is omitted in the lists in MN 111) and volition, cannot possibly be discriminated into its universals, since that would require the mind to be conscious of so many states concurrently. That violates the single contact per consciousness paradigm.
However, an argument for the "vipassana within jhana" is that the description changes for the base of neither perception-nor-non-perception, which would be more like my rendering above:
17. “Again, bhikkhus, by completely surmounting the base of nothingness, Sāriputta entered upon and abided in the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception.

18. “He emerged mindful from that attainment. Having done so, he contemplated the states that had passed, ceased, and changed, thus: ‘So indeed, these states, not having been, come into being; having been, they vanish.’ [1051] Regarding those states, he abided unattracted, unrepelled, independent, detached, free, dissociated, with a mind rid of barriers. He understood: ‘There is an escape beyond,’ and with the cultivation of that [attainment], he confirmed that there is.
BB's note does mention that this is a particularly subtle state, so perhaps that is the reason for the change in pattern.

Here's the last attainment, just for completeness:
19. “Again, bhikkhus, by completely surmounting the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, Sāriputta entered upon and abided in the cessation of perception and feeling. And his taints were destroyed by his seeing with wisdom.[1052]

20. “He emerged mindful from that attainment. Having done so, he recalled the states that had passed, ceased, and changed, thus: ‘So indeed, these states, not having been, come into being; having been, they vanish.’ [1053] Regarding those states, he abided unattracted, unrepelled, independent, detached, free, dissociated, with a mind rid of barriers. He understood: ‘There is no escape beyond,’ and with the cultivation of that [attainment], he confirmed that there is not. [1054]
I note the distinction that has often been pressed into service, ie why is there no mention of emergence in the 7 saññāsamāpattis? I've attempted to address this in this post - http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 80#p222720" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My more recent guess (ie I no longer pretend that MN 111 is not suspect) is that the sutta was originally structured in a way that Ven Sariputta's vipassana was exactly the same running through all 9 attainments. I suspect that the passages on his vipassana about the final 2 attainments would have been modified to fit in with the Buddha's hagiography which attempts to set Him apart from the disciples, ie the 2 passages were modified to include the emergence passage, as the final 2 discriminations would only have been available to the Buddha within those attainments in accordance with the hagiography.

However, having checked the Psm, these 2 special discriminations are not listed as being peculiar to the Buddha, adding to my suspicions that the sutta is definitely showing the advanced signs of hagiography creeping in.

Not too heretical, I hope...

dhammarelax
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Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by dhammarelax » Tue Jan 05, 2016 3:15 pm

Stillness wrote:
If we consider samādhi/samatha as the whole mountain ("Samadhi is the Path" - AN 6.64), then jhāna is the peak. As you know, a peak has an ascending slope and a descending slope. We can equate the first 7 factors of the Noble Eightfold Path to this ascending slope. Then, the 8th factor is the peak. The descending slope is where the mind remains hindrance free after emerging from the jhāna. The hindrance free duration will depend on the strength of the jhāna. Most importantly, this descending slope is where the insights arise, and also used for psychic powers, if one wishes.
Hi Stillness

I accept the insight arising outside Jhana, but let me ask you something, in my practice insight also puts you in to Jhana, applying the 4NTs to the distractions then you get in to Jhana, how does this square out?


Smile all the time
dhammarelax
Even if the flesh & blood in my body dry up, leaving just the skin, tendons, & bones, I will use all my human firmness, human persistence and human striving. There will be no relaxing my persistence until I am the first of my generation to attain full awakening in this lifetime. ed. AN 2.5

Stillness
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Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by Stillness » Thu Jan 07, 2016 1:50 pm

dhammarelax wrote:I accept the insight arising outside Jhana, but let me ask you something, in my practice insight also puts you in to Jhana, applying the 4NTs to the distractions then you get in to Jhana, how does this square out?
Hi dhammarelax,

For an Arahant, 4NT is naturally there. Because, their mind is nīvaraṇa free, always. For other Ariyas, 4NT available only when they direct their mind to it. Let us say you are a sotāpanna, then, when you have a distraction, if you direct your mind to 4NT and proceed, naturally you'll get absorbed into the mind itself, which is the jhāna.

But, if you're not even a sotāpanna, then what you have is just a knowledge in 4NT. For most, "applying the 4NTs to the distractions" will be "distracting the distractions", and may not proceed further than Right Effort or Right Mindfulness unless you managed to let go of the dhammavitakka (in this case knowledge in 4NT) after getting rid of the distractions. Then, a jhāna is a possibility.

Have I made myself clear?

Bakmoon
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Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by Bakmoon » Thu Jan 07, 2016 10:48 pm

More than just the grammar alone it is important to examine the text as a whole hermetically. To me it seems that this text is very carefully structured to indicate that the vipassana does in fact occur in jhana, because in the case of the last two attainments, the Ven. Sariputta is explicitly described as withdrawing from the attainment and then doing vipassana, but in all the others it does not say this. If the Ven. Sariputta were not engaged in doing vipassana within these jhanas, then including the explicit mention in the last two attainments is redundant, so for me this text seems to clearly teach vipassana in jhana.

In my humble opinion the key to making sense of this is to understand that when it says

Sāriputto bhikkhave, addhamāsaṃ anupadadhammavipassanaṃ vipassati.
(Sariputta had insight into states one by one as they
occurred)

That this doesn't mean that the Ven. Sariputta was engaged in what we would call Vipassana meditation (i.e. the analytical discursive kind in which you direct your attention to various objects) while being absorbed in jhana. Rather, this simply means that when he was in jhana, he was clearly aware of the factors of the jhana while in the jhana itself, and this counts as the quality of vipassana. Just my interpretation, but I think that looking at it this way both preserves the plain meaning of the text and is also broadly compatible with how jhanas are understood.

By the way, does the commentary have anything to say on this subject?
The non-doing of any evil,
The performance of what's skillful,
The cleansing of one's own mind:
This is the Buddhas' teaching.

WorldTraveller
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Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by WorldTraveller » Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:09 am

Bakmoon wrote:so for me this text seems to clearly teach vipassana in jhana.
Greetings Bakmoon.
Are you speaking from your direct jhanic experience?
Cheers!

Bakmoon
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Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by Bakmoon » Fri Jan 08, 2016 4:36 am

WorldTraveller wrote:
Bakmoon wrote:so for me this text seems to clearly teach vipassana in jhana.
Greetings Bakmoon.
Are you speaking from your direct jhanic experience?
Cheers!
I'm speaking from the way this text is put together.

As to meditative experience I think it's better not to disclose personal attainments online in general.
The non-doing of any evil,
The performance of what's skillful,
The cleansing of one's own mind:
This is the Buddhas' teaching.

WorldTraveller
Posts: 77
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2015 11:07 am

Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by WorldTraveller » Fri Jan 08, 2016 5:18 am

Bakmoon wrote:I'm speaking from the way this text is put together.

As to meditative experience I think it's better not to disclose personal attainments online in general.
I asked that becasue how a person with direct expreience intereprets the Dhamma is quite different from a person without such an expreience, especially comes to a topic like jhana. Earlier, OP talked about the "similie of the elephant footprint".

Yes, I respect your view regarding disclosure.

Sylvester
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Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by Sylvester » Fri Jan 08, 2016 5:35 am

Bakmoon wrote:More than just the grammar alone it is important to examine the text as a whole hermetically. To me it seems that this text is very carefully structured to indicate that the vipassana does in fact occur in jhana, because in the case of the last two attainments, the Ven. Sariputta is explicitly described as withdrawing from the attainment and then doing vipassana, but in all the others it does not say this. If the Ven. Sariputta were not engaged in doing vipassana within these jhanas, then including the explicit mention in the last two attainments is redundant, so for me this text seems to clearly teach vipassana in jhana.

In my humble opinion the key to making sense of this is to understand that when it says

Sāriputto bhikkhave, addhamāsaṃ anupadadhammavipassanaṃ vipassati.
(Sariputta had insight into states one by one as they
occurred)

That this doesn't mean that the Ven. Sariputta was engaged in what we would call Vipassana meditation (i.e. the analytical discursive kind in which you direct your attention to various objects) while being absorbed in jhana. Rather, this simply means that when he was in jhana, he was clearly aware of the factors of the jhana while in the jhana itself, and this counts as the quality of vipassana. Just my interpretation, but I think that looking at it this way both preserves the plain meaning of the text and is also broadly compatible with how jhanas are understood.

By the way, does the commentary have anything to say on this subject?

Hi Bakmoon

Firstly, the translation above. The Pali has been rendered nicely into idiomatic English from a more literal rendering -
Sāriputto, bhikkhave, aḍḍhamāsaṃ anupa­da­dhamma­vi­passa­naṃ vipassati.

Monks, Sariputta clearly saw insight into states successively in a fortnight.

(rendering the present tense vipassati as a historical present)

According to the Comy -
Anupadadhammavipassananti samāpattivasena vā jhānaṅgavasena vā anupaṭipāṭiyā dhammavipassanaṃ vipassati,

"Anupa­da­dhamma­vi­passa­naṃ" means he clearly saw insight into states by means of the attainments and jhana factors anupaṭipāṭiyā.
The CPD gives the meaning of anupaṭipāṭi as "successively", but includes a commentarial meaning of "immediately after".

So, I am actually struggling to see why BB and Ven T have furnished "as they occurred" in their translations. It is not in Horner's translation, although she uses "uninterrupted".

The answer might perhaps be found in the next passage on discrimination, explained by the Comy as follows -
Anupadavavatthitā hontīti anupaṭipāṭiyā vavatthitā paricchinnā ñātā viditā honti.

"Anupadavavatthitā hontī" means they were successively discriminated, defined, understood and known as they occurred.
The reason why I inserted "as they occurred" into the Comy is because instead of simply parsing anupadavavatthitā (discriminated successively), the Comy chose to parse "anupadavavatthitā hontī". It appears that the Comy does not treat honti here as a mere auxillary verb in a periphrastic construction with vavatthitā, but that it functions to convey an additional verbal idea, ie "as the dhammas occurred".

Is this reading even necessary? Occam's Razor would suggest that the normal periphrastic construction is the easiest, so I would take the phrase to simply mean "they were discriminated successively" and complete drop "as they occurred". This lean interpretation does the least violence to such absorption suttas such as DN 9 and DA 28, which posit that the perception in the attainments is very singular, not diverse. See how the singular perception proposition is repeated for emphasis in each passage.

WorldTraveller
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Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by WorldTraveller » Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:07 pm

Sylvester wrote:...
In my humble opinion the key to making sense of this is to understand that when it says

Sāriputto bhikkhave, addhamāsaṃ anupadadhammavipassanaṃ vipassati.
(Sariputta had insight into states one by one as they
occurred)
Hi Sylvester,

According to your Pali knowledge, the below understanding occured in the jhana or after the jhana? Thanks in advance.
He understood thus, "So indeed, these states, not having been, come into being; having been, they vanish. There is an escape beyond, and with the cultivation of that [attainment]." He confirmed that there is.

Bakmoon
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Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by Bakmoon » Fri Jan 08, 2016 5:07 pm

Sylvester wrote:Is this reading even necessary? Occam's Razor would suggest that the normal periphrastic construction is the easiest, so I would take the phrase to simply mean "they were discriminated successively" and complete drop "as they occurred". This lean interpretation does the least violence to such absorption suttas such as DN 9 and DA 28, which posit that the perception in the attainments is very singular, not diverse. See how the singular perception proposition is repeated for emphasis in each passage.
I agree with you. There is no real loss of intelligibility or meaning by just translating it focusing on the sense of succession as the primary meaning. If anything, the addition of 'as they occurred' is an interpolation. Although that particular meaning could be present in the text in some rather incidental fashion, I think it is clear from the context that the emphasis of the passage is on the fact that the Ven. Sariputta discerned such states one after the other, and by taking on the phrase "as they occured" one changes the emphasis.

Even though I happen to accept the position that this addition hints toward, I don't think that such an idea is actually present in this passage.

By the way, could you please tell me what the relavent portions of DN 9 and DA 28 are? I remember going through DN 9 and not really understanding the point because I didn't quite know what I was looking for. It sounds to me that in DN 9 the Buddha is talking about how in the jhanas up to the sphere of nothingness, one replaces the perception of one thing with the perception of the thing specific to that jhana, and that perception only comes to an end during cessation.
The non-doing of any evil,
The performance of what's skillful,
The cleansing of one's own mind:
This is the Buddhas' teaching.

Sylvester
Posts: 2205
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by Sylvester » Sat Jan 09, 2016 4:52 am

WorldTraveller wrote: Hi Sylvester,

According to your Pali knowledge, the below understanding occured in the jhana or after the jhana? Thanks in advance.
He understood thus, "So indeed, these states, not having been, come into being; having been, they vanish. There is an escape beyond, and with the cultivation of that [attainment]." He confirmed that there is.
Hi WorldTraveller

I don't think it is possible for such an insight to have arisen within a jhana. Some time back, I explained my views for how this insight arises - http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 80#p222720" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sylvester
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Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by Sylvester » Sat Jan 09, 2016 5:36 am

Bakmoon wrote: By the way, could you please tell me what the relavent portions of DN 9 and DA 28 are? I remember going through DN 9 and not really understanding the point because I didn't quite know what I was looking for. It sounds to me that in DN 9 the Buddha is talking about how in the jhanas up to the sphere of nothingness, one replaces the perception of one thing with the perception of the thing specific to that jhana, and that perception only comes to an end during cessation.

Hi Bakmoon

The passages I had in mind about the singularity of perception in each of the perception-attainments in DN 9 is this -
ABC­su­khuma­sacca­saññā tasmiṃ samaye hoti, ABC­su­khuma­sac­casaññī­yeva tasmiṃ samaye hoti

...on that occasion there is a perception of a refined truth of ABC. On that occasion he is one who is percipient of a refined truth of ABC.
Note that the copula that is used is the singular hoti, instead of the plural honti. Note also that the declaration of that meditator being a "perceiver of a subtle but real ABC" is marked by the emphatic eva.

Since we are discussing this in the Early Buddhism section, I can afford to be less pious and more critical. I honestly cannot pretend to define vavatthita as carrying anything other than its full-blown Psm meaning, instead of trying to delimit it to perception simpliciter as per my previous discussion with you. That being the case, having this activity going on in a jhana runs counter to DN 9 as follows -
Yato kho, poṭṭhapāda, bhikkhu idha sakasaññī hoti, so tato amutra tato amutra anupubbena saññaggaṃ phusati. Tassa saññagge ṭhitassa evaṃ hoti: ‘cetayamānassa me pāpiyo, acetayamānassa me seyyo. Ahañceva kho pana ceteyyaṃ, abhi­saṅ­kha­reyyaṃ, imā ca me saññā nirujjheyyuṃ, aññā ca oḷārikā saññā uppajjeyyuṃ; yannūnāhaṃ na ceva ceteyyaṃ na ca abhi­saṅ­kha­reyyan’ti. So na ceva ceteti, na ca abhisaṅkharoti. Tassa acetayato anabhi­saṅ­kha­roto tā ceva saññā nirujjhanti, aññā ca oḷārikā saññā na uppajjanti. So nirodhaṃ phusati.

Now, when the monk is percipient of himself here, then from there to there, step by step, he touches the peak of perception. Regarding that station at the peak of perception, the thought occurs to him, ‘Thinking is bad for me. Not thinking is better for me. If I were to think and will, these perceptions of mine would cease, and other grosser perceptions would appear. What if I were neither to think nor to will?’ So he neither thinks nor wills, and as he is neither thinking nor willing, those perceptions cease and other, grosser perceptions do not appear. He touches cessation.

(using Ven T's translation, but correcting the errors as underlined. For the bit in red, I've also taken the allowance in Pali to treat ṭhita as a substantive noun, instead of its normal function as a verb or adjective; see Warder and Buddhadata, and translating saññagge ṭhitassa as being 2 substantive nouns. The Chinese parallel has 彼得此想 已 ("having already reached that perception" with 已 showing that the Chinese translator understood the past participle to be operating to separate the stationing from the evaṃ hoti/作是念/ the thought occurs to him.)

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Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by Bakmoon » Tue Jan 12, 2016 5:15 am

Sylvester wrote:Hi Bakmoon

The passages I had in mind about the singularity of perception in each of the perception-attainments in DN 9 is this -
ABC­su­khuma­sacca­saññā tasmiṃ samaye hoti, ABC­su­khuma­sac­casaññī­yeva tasmiṃ samaye hoti

...on that occasion there is a perception of a refined truth of ABC. On that occasion he is one who is percipient of a refined truth of ABC.
Note that the copula that is used is the singular hoti, instead of the plural honti. Note also that the declaration of that meditator being a "perceiver of a subtle but real ABC" is marked by the emphatic eva.
Ah, yes, that makes a lot more sense to me now that you've explained it in detail. I have no problem with saying that the jhanas involve the development of a singular perception free from diversity, especially in light of similar teachings found in other texts such as MN 121. Somehow I misread you at first and thought you were arguing against perception in the lower jhanas.
Sylvester wrote: Since we are discussing this in the Early Buddhism section, I can afford to be less pious and more critical. I honestly cannot pretend to define vavatthita as carrying anything other than its full-blown Psm meaning, instead of trying to delimit it to perception simpliciter as per my previous discussion with you. That being the case, having this activity going on in a jhana runs counter to DN 9 as follows -
Yato kho, poṭṭhapāda, bhikkhu idha sakasaññī hoti, so tato amutra tato amutra anupubbena saññaggaṃ phusati. Tassa saññagge ṭhitassa evaṃ hoti: ‘cetayamānassa me pāpiyo, acetayamānassa me seyyo. Ahañceva kho pana ceteyyaṃ, abhi­saṅ­kha­reyyaṃ, imā ca me saññā nirujjheyyuṃ, aññā ca oḷārikā saññā uppajjeyyuṃ; yannūnāhaṃ na ceva ceteyyaṃ na ca abhi­saṅ­kha­reyyan’ti. So na ceva ceteti, na ca abhisaṅkharoti. Tassa acetayato anabhi­saṅ­kha­roto tā ceva saññā nirujjhanti, aññā ca oḷārikā saññā na uppajjanti. So nirodhaṃ phusati.

Now, when the monk is percipient of himself here, then from there to there, step by step, he touches the peak of perception. Regarding that station at the peak of perception, the thought occurs to him, ‘Thinking is bad for me. Not thinking is better for me. If I were to think and will, these perceptions of mine would cease, and other grosser perceptions would appear. What if I were neither to think nor to will?’ So he neither thinks nor wills, and as he is neither thinking nor willing, those perceptions cease and other, grosser perceptions do not appear. He touches cessation.

(using Ven T's translation, but correcting the errors as underlined. For the bit in red, I've also taken the allowance in Pali to treat ṭhita as a substantive noun, instead of its normal function as a verb or adjective; see Warder and Buddhadata, and translating saññagge ṭhitassa as being 2 substantive nouns. The Chinese parallel has 彼得此想 已 ("having already reached that perception" with 已 showing that the Chinese translator understood the past participle to be operating to separate the stationing from the evaṃ hoti/作是念/ the thought occurs to him.)
Very true. But I still think that given the structure of the Anupada Sutta as a whole, understanding the term vavatthita in a more qualified sense does less violence to the plain meaning of the text than it does by saying that the text indicates the withdrawal from jhana in the case of the percipient attainments.

Of course, that is all assuming that one wishes to harmonize the Anupada Sutta with the rest of the Canon in the first place. Given that its very anomalous cut and paste job of the jhana factors from the abhidhamma in addition to the strangeness regarding the jhanas and lack of chinese parallels, perhaps it might make more sense to just accept that the Anupada sutta contradicts the more mainline suttas.
The non-doing of any evil,
The performance of what's skillful,
The cleansing of one's own mind:
This is the Buddhas' teaching.

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Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by Stillness » Fri Apr 07, 2017 1:09 pm

To cultivate such awareness of these mental qualities arising and disappearing while being in an absorption is impossible, because the very presence of these qualities is required for there to be an absorption in the first place and for it to continue being a state of absorption.24

__________
24 This has in fact already been pointed out by Vetter 1988: 69: “it is certainly not possible to observe, as is stated in the text, the disappearance of these qualities in any of these states [i.e., the absorptions], because they are constituted by these qualities.”
Quoted from pg. 121 of Early Buddhist Meditation Studies by Ven. Anālayo

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Dhammanando
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Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by Dhammanando » Sat Apr 08, 2017 3:53 am

Tilman Vetter wrote:“it is certainly not possible to observe, as is stated in the text, the disappearance of these qualities in any of these states [i.e., the absorptions], because they are constituted by these qualities.”
:thumbsup:

Arguments don't get much more QED than that. With a single sentence Tilman Vetter cuts asunder endless pages of baloney from the promoters of jhāna-lite.

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Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Apr 08, 2017 4:21 am

Interesting observation.

I live in hope that people will cease using the classifications sutta vs visuddhimagga jhana, and instead talk about light vs heavy jhana...

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Mike

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robertk
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Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by robertk » Sat Apr 08, 2017 4:22 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Tilman Vetter wrote:“it is certainly not possible to observe, as is stated in the text, the disappearance of these qualities in any of these states [i.e., the absorptions], because they are constituted by these qualities.”
:thumbsup:

Arguments don't get much more QED than that. With a single sentence Tilman Vetter cuts asunder endless pages of baloney from the promoters of jhāna-lite.
:anjali: :anjali: :anjali:

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robertk
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Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by robertk » Sun Apr 09, 2017 5:57 am

mikenz66 wrote:Interesting observation.

I live in hope that people will cease using the classifications sutta vs visuddhimagga jhana, and instead talk about light vs heavy jhana...



:heart:
Mike
And what is jhana lite? or jhana heavy?

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mikenz66
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Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Apr 09, 2017 7:48 am

Jhana heavy is jhana of the depth describe in the Visuddhimagga, or by various teachers, such as Vens Analayo, Brahm, etc, on the basis of the suttas.

Jhana light is not as heavy... :tongue:

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