[MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

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2600htz
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Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by 2600htz » Thu May 04, 2017 12:18 am

Hello:

Honestly i dont see anything against the dhamma in this sutta.

Basically its saying that Sariputta was aware of what was happening?. That
can´t be so bad right?.

Regards.

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Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by CedarTree » Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:50 pm

"Anupadadhammavipassana"

Wow now that is a word!


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Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by DooDoot » Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:09 am

StormBorn wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:53 pm
Now, if you say MN 111 is late, that’s totally fine since “0” parallels and the content fails horribly against multiple points of Dhamma.
I don't have the knowledge to analyse this linguistically but a quick look finds "adhimokkho" to be alien to the suttas and the use of "vipassana" seems unusual (although not fatally) because the seeing the arising (uppajjanti), persisting (upaṭṭhahanti) and subsiding (abbhatthaṃ) of those nama dhamma (namely, contact, feeling, perception, intention, mind, enthusiasm, decision, energy, mindfulness and attention) is called sati-sampajaññā in suttas such as AN 4.41. That is, the words uppajjanti, upaṭṭhahanti and abbhatthaṃ appears also in AN 4.41 and refer to the same "perfection of sati-sampajaññā". However, due to this point about AN 4.41, I have never sensed it "fails horribly" against multiple points of Dhamma. In fact, I always found the sutta is Dhammically authentic (but it won't be for those that believe they practise "suppression jhana"). For those that practise jhana as taught by the Buddha (in SN 48.9 and 10; and MN 118) where "letting go" (vossagga) is the meditation object, MN 111 does not sound alien; particularly the phrase: "Discerned there is an escape beyond". I will respond to the OP.
Stillness wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2015 1:21 pm
MN 111 (Anupada Sutta) is the commentarial reference of anupadadhammavipassana (Insight into states in successive order by way of the meditative attainments and the jhana factors). According to this Sutta Ven. Sariputta managed to accomplish the below tasks while in the jhana.

1) He defined each mental states one by one as they occurred.
2) He was aware of the mental states arising, their presence, and their disappearance.
3) He understood thus, "So indeed, these states, not having been, come into being; having been, they vanish. There is an escape beyond, and with the cultivation of that [attainment]." He confirmed that there is.

That's a lot of mind movements (thinking) for a person in a jhana! And, he did so for all four jhanas, and also for the first three immaterial attainments.
It seems the above post is imputing "Mahasi Vipassana" ideas onto MN 111. MN 111 uses the words "arising (uppajjanti), persisting (upaṭṭhahanti) and subsiding (abbhatthaṃ)", which in AN 4.41 describe the perfection of sati-sampajanna. Therefore, the idea that these nama-dhamma in MN 111 are rapidly arising & passing Mahasi-style seems a misinterpretation. All that appears said here is when these nama-dhamma may operate in a salient way or relax, this is discerned as soon as it happens.
Stillness wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2015 1:21 pm
Evidence that this Sutta is later added:
1) Only available in Pali Canon. No parallel versions in Chinese Agamas.
:zzz:
2) Added extra factors after the standard jhana factors without the Pali conjunction 'ca' (and):
phasso vedanā saññā cetanā cittaṃ chando adhimokkho vīriyaṃ sati upekkhā manasikāro.
'Ca' is not used in SN 12.2 when vedanā, saññā, cetanā, phasso, manasikāro are mentioned. Since these 'scholars' hold idiosycratic views about what 'nama-rupa' is in SN 12.2, the impression is these idiosycratic views impact upon their views of what vedanā, saññā, cetanā, phasso, manasikāro refers to in MN 111.
3) Addition of upekkhā as an extra factor to all four jhanas (twice in the fourth). In other Suttas, upekkhā only mentioned for the fourth jhana.
Upekkha would be discernible in each jhana when "letting go" is used to attained jhana (per SN 48.9 and 10).
4) The factor 'adhimokkho' (decision) never appear anywhere in first four Nikayas. It's an Abhidhamma term that only appears in Paṭisambhidāmaggapāḷi & Abhidhammapiṭaka.
Sure. The smoking gun or WTC Building 7. But this does not make MN 111 fail horribly against multiple points of Dhamma.
5) The Commentary gives the name anupadadhammavipassana to Ven. Sariputta's method, which played a big role especially in later dry Vipassana circles. One example is Mahasi Sayadaw's meditation manual.
The above is as I suspected and already mentioned above. MN 111 appears unrelated to Mahasi vipassana. The term "vipassana" in MN 111 appears to equate with the perfection of "sati-sampajanna" in AN 4.41.
Later in the Sutta, for the fourth immaterial attainment, it says, "He emerged mindful from that attainment. Having done so, he contemplated [samanupassati] the states that had passed, ceased, and changed," which is the correct way of insight for any jhana since no contemplation is possible in a jhana (see DN 2 & AN 3.101).
:shrug:
EDIT: 2017 April 07
The below quote is from pg. 121 of Early Buddhist Meditation Studies by Ven. Anālayo
To cultivate such awareness of these mental qualities arising and disappearing while being in an absorption is impossible, because the very presence of these qualities is required for there to be an absorption in the first place and for it to continue being a state of absorption.24
__________
24 This has in fact already been pointed out by Vetter 1988: 69: “it is certainly not possible to observe, as is stated in the text, the disappearance of these qualities in any of these states [i.e., the absorptions], because they are constituted by these qualities.”
While the above conclusions are logical, they might be too literal. While I can't counter the above conclusions, I would apply more thought to it; such as reflecting on this teaching from the perspective of the 3rd development in AN 4.41. Also, the key word here "vidita" probably should be examined. In short, my impression, as said, is the commentators are imputing Mahasi ideas onto the sutta rather than AN 4.41.

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Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by StormBorn » Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:24 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:09 am
It seems the above post is imputing "Mahasi Vipassana" ideas onto MN 111. MN 111 uses the words "arising (uppajjanti), persisting (upaṭṭhahanti) and subsiding (abbhatthaṃ)", which in AN 4.41 describe the perfection of sati-sampajanna. Therefore, the idea that these nama-dhamma in MN 111 are rapidly arising & passing Mahasi-style seems a misinterpretation. All that appears said here is when these nama-dhamma may operate in a salient way or relax, this is discerned as soon as it happens.
DooDoot wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:09 am
The above is as I suspected and already mentioned above. MN 111 appears unrelated to Mahasi vipassana. The term "vipassana" in MN 111 appears to equate with the perfection of "sati-sampajanna" in AN 4.41.
Please search the word “anupada” in Mahasi Sayadaw’s Manual of Insight. There are four occurrences of “Anupada Sutta” and one occurrence of “anupadadhamma-vipassanā”. Below is one example:
The following passage from the subcommentary on the Anupada Sutta shows how the Venerable Moggallāna became fully enlightened by meditating on only some of the objects that Buddhist disciples usually observe:
...
“Greater in battle than the man who would conquer a thousand-thousand men, is he who would conquer just one—himself.”

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Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by Dhammanando » Wed Oct 10, 2018 3:21 pm

This talk of the rarity of the word adhimokkha in the suttas seems a bit of a :redherring: to me.

Though the word may be rare, what it denotes most certainly is not. The idea is conveyed most often by adhimuccati, the verb from which adhimokkha derives.

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Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by Polar Bear » Wed Oct 10, 2018 6:59 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
Sat Apr 08, 2017 3:53 am
Tilman Vetter wrote:“it is certainly not possible to observe, as is stated in the text, the disappearance of these qualities in any of these states [i.e., the absorptions], because they are constituted by these qualities.”
:thumbsup:

Arguments don't get much more QED than that. With a single sentence Tilman Vetter cuts asunder endless pages of baloney from the promoters of jhāna-lite.
That seems to ignore the fact that persisting feelings are constantly undergoing change and so in a sense are constantly arising and passing away. I’d suggest it isn’t entirely unreasonable to think the passing away of rapture in the first jhana might simply mean noticing that one particular upsurge of rapture is fading, meanwhile another one has just started rising up. I’m pretty sure everyone who has ever meditated on pain knows that it can persist but at the same time one can see how the qualities of the pain are constantly shifting, albeit in subtle ways, and that noticing the constant passing away of pain within a generally persistent state of pain provides a kind of relief.

I’m not going to argue for jhana-lite, I just wanted to point out that the seeming knockdown argument fails to take into account the subtleties of experience. So I don’t find the argument very persuasive. If anything, jhana heavy is just better because I’d imagine that it provides a greater pleasure to rely on in order to abandon sensuality and perhaps because the deeper the concentration the more malleable the mind just after exiting that state.

:anjali:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by DooDoot » Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:09 pm

StormBorn wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:24 pm
Please search the word “anupada” in Mahasi Sayadaw’s Manual of Insight. There are four occurrences of “Anupada Sutta” and one occurrence of “anupadadhamma-vipassanā”. Below is one example:
Instead of insight arising as my head hit the pillow last night (when my mind said MN 111 is "ridiculous non-sense"); insight just arose with the rapture of relief that arises from the morning toileting.

:toilet: The sutta says:
And he distinguished the phenomena in the first absorption one by one:

Whatever qualities there are in the first jhana — he ferreted them out one after another.
To make a positive case for dhammic authenticity, what might possibly be described above is as follows:

1. Naturally, in jhana, the respective factors each jhana (vitakka vicara, piti, sukha, ekaggata, equanimity) are the predominant object and naturally manifest/constitute the jhana (as was argued by Tilman Vetter).

2. However, the nama-dhammas (namely, contact, feeling, perception, intention, mind, enthusiasm, decision, energy, mindfulness and attention) naturally also exist, even though they are not the predominant objects and may not ordinarily be discerned in jhana (due to the predominance of the jhana factors).

3. So in this sutta, Sariputta inclines his mind (somehow) to examine the existence of each of the nama-dhamma.

4. Each nama-dhamma comes into play as Sariputta inclines the mind to examine/ferret each single nama-dhamma and each nama-dhamma ceases to be the object of attention when Sariputta moves on to distinguishing or ferreting the next nama-dhamma.
Friends, all dhammas come into play through attention.

AN 10.58
5. Thus, Sariputta is not distinguishing all of the nama-dhamma at the same time. He distinguishes each nama-dhamma one by one (even though the factors of each jhana remain the predominant objects of mind).

6. In other words, the factors of jhana always remain, in each jhana. Their coming to be was already known and the ceasing will be later known. But to examine each nama-dhamma, the mind inclines (very subtly) and asks very intuitively: "Where is the mindfulness?" and examines it; "Where is the zeal?" and examines it; "Where is the energy?" and examines it, etc.

7. After mindfulness is examined, it ceases as the object of attention when the next dhamma, example, zeal, is examined. So each nama-dhamma comes into play when paying attention to it and each nama-dhamma ceases to be in play when attention moves onto ferretting out the next nama-dhamma.

8. While it remains questionable such intuitive decision making can occur in the 2nd jhana, I think MN 111 is saying what I suggested.

9. Its the same as meditating upon Dependent Origination. First, the mind must know the theory of each dhamma and sub-dhamma listed in SN 12.2. Then the mind turns/inclines itself to ferreting out those Dependently Originated dhammas. The scholars don't do this because generally their minds hold strong doctrinal bias that prevents an open mind of inquiry.

10. If you read my posts on how to meditatively distinguish "nama-rupa" from "sankhara" in Dependent Origination, I explain it exactly the same way as above but no-one bothers to listen and practise what I post because most people have strong doctrinal views about Dependent Origination and are not willing to suspend those doctrinal views in order to ferret out the conditions and sub-conditions of Dependent Origination.

:smile:
Dhammanando wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 3:21 pm
The idea is conveyed most often by adhimuccati, the verb from which adhimokkha derives.
Thank you for that Venerable.
Last edited by DooDoot on Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:47 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by StormBorn » Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:37 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:09 pm
StormBorn wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:24 pm
The above is as I suspected and already mentioned above. MN 111 appears unrelated to Mahasi vipassana. The term "vipassana" in MN 111 appears to equate with the perfection of "sati-sampajanna" in AN 4.41.
Was it a mistake to quote your post under my name? :smile:
“Greater in battle than the man who would conquer a thousand-thousand men, is he who would conquer just one—himself.”

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Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by Dmytro » Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:13 am

Polar Bear wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 6:59 pm
Dhammanando wrote:
Sat Apr 08, 2017 3:53 am
Tilman Vetter wrote:“it is certainly not possible to observe, as is stated in the text, the disappearance of these qualities in any of these states [i.e., the absorptions], because they are constituted by these qualities.”
:thumbsup:

Arguments don't get much more QED than that. With a single sentence Tilman Vetter cuts asunder endless pages of baloney from the promoters of jhāna-lite.
That seems to ignore the fact that persisting feelings are constantly undergoing change and so in a sense are constantly arising and passing away. I’d suggest it isn’t entirely unreasonable to think the passing away of rapture in the first jhana might simply mean noticing that one particular upsurge of rapture is fading, meanwhile another one has just started rising up. I’m pretty sure everyone who has ever meditated on pain knows that it can persist but at the same time one can see how the qualities of the pain are constantly shifting, albeit in subtle ways, and that noticing the constant passing away of pain within a generally persistent state of pain provides a kind of relief.


Yes, indeed, arguments by Tilman Vetter and Analayo are faulty, since jhana is not a building set in stone, it is a dynamic equilibrium of impermanent mental phenomena.
"'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana.' Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk, secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

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Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by auto » Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:11 am

MN 111 https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
The Blessed One said, "Monks, Sariputta is wise, of great discernment, deep discernment, wide... joyous... rapid... quick... penetrating discernment. For half a month, Sariputta clearly saw insight[1] into mental qualities one after another. This is what occurred to Sariputta through insight into mental qualities one after another:
it says he already got knowledge and vision, if insight is amongst knowledge and vision

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"Monks, these are the four developments of concentration. Which four?
There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now.
There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision.
There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness.
There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents.
He compared to that Sutta developed concentration what leads to mindfulness and alertness, if awareness release is associated with mindfulness and alertness.


after that development,
"If a person, rightly saying it of anyone, were to say, 'He is the Blessed One's son, his offspring — born of his mouth, born of the Dhamma, created by the Dhamma, his heir in the Dhamma, not his heir in material things,' he would be rightly saying it of Sariputta if he were to say: 'He is the Blessed One's son, his offspring — born of his mouth, born of the Dhamma, created by the Dhamma, his heir in the Dhamma, not his heir in material things.' Sariputta, monks, takes the unexcelled wheel of Dhamma set rolling by the Tathagata, and keeps it rolling rightly."
He is born of the dhamma, he doesn't roll the wheel of dhamma but is capable of keep rolling the dhamma set in motion by Tathagatha.

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Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by auto » Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:55 am

auto wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:11 am
MN 111 https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
The Blessed One said, "Monks, Sariputta is wise, of great discernment, deep discernment, wide... joyous... rapid... quick... penetrating discernment. For half a month, Sariputta clearly saw insight[1] into mental qualities one after another. This is what occurred to Sariputta through insight into mental qualities one after another:
it says he already got knowledge and vision, if insight is amongst knowledge and vision

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"Monks, these are the four developments of concentration. Which four?
There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now.
There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision.
There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness.
There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents.
He compared to that Sutta developed concentration what leads to mindfulness and alertness, if awareness release is associated with mindfulness and alertness.


after that development,
"If a person, rightly saying it of anyone, were to say, 'He is the Blessed One's son, his offspring — born of his mouth, born of the Dhamma, created by the Dhamma, his heir in the Dhamma, not his heir in material things,' he would be rightly saying it of Sariputta if he were to say: 'He is the Blessed One's son, his offspring — born of his mouth, born of the Dhamma, created by the Dhamma, his heir in the Dhamma, not his heir in material things.' Sariputta, monks, takes the unexcelled wheel of Dhamma set rolling by the Tathagata, and keeps it rolling rightly."
He is born of the dhamma, he doesn't roll the wheel of dhamma but is capable of keep rolling the dhamma set in motion by Tathagatha.
im wrong, if

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Not agitated, he (the monk) is totally unbound right within. He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'"
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is no further escape,' and pursuing it there really wasn't for him.
are meaning same


one more clue is 'awareness rid' of barriers and 'there is no landing of..'
"If a monk abandons passion for the property of consciousness, then owing to the abandonment of passion, the support is cut off, and there is no landing of consciousness. Consciousness, thus not having landed, not increasing, not concocting, is released.
--
but i think the idea is still considerable because its possible that clinging aggregates are mental, mind.

while
2nd development of concentration leads to knowledge and vision, form
the 3rd development is ending feeling and perception, that also included ending of body, speech and mind fabricates.
the 4th development is ending of effluents and these are regards to clinging aggregates, and what is left from past three is 4th and 5th khanda.

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Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by Volovsky » Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:17 pm

Stillness wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2015 1:21 pm
Evidence that this Sutta is later added:
1) Only available in Pali Canon. No parallel versions in Chinese Agamas.
2) Added extra factors after the standard jhana factors without the Pali conjunction 'ca' (and):
phasso vedanā saññā cetanā cittaṃ chando adhimokkho vīriyaṃ sati upekkhā manasikāro.
3) Addition of upekkhā as an extra factor to all four jhanas (twice in the fourth). In other Suttas, upekkhā only mentioned for the fourth jhana.
4) The factor 'adhimokkho' (decision) never appear anywhere in first four Nikayas. It's an Abhidhamma term that only appears in Paṭisambhidāmaggapāḷi & Abhidhammapiṭaka.
5) The Commentary gives the name anupadadhammavipassana to Ven. Sariputta's method, which played a big role especially in later dry Vipassana circles. One example is Mahasi Sayadaw's meditation manual.
Another strange thing about MN 111 is that account of Sariputta's arahatship differs from MN 74:
MN74 wrote:Now on that occasion the venerable Sāriputta was standing behind the Blessed One, fanning him. Then he thought: “The Blessed One, indeed, speaks to us of the abandoning of these things through direct knowledge; the Sublime One, indeed, speaks to us of the relinquishing of these things through direct knowledge.” As the venerable Sāriputta considered this, through not clinging his mind was liberated from the taints.
Whereas MN 111:
MN111 wrote:Again, bhikkhus, by completely surmounting the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, Sāriputta entered upon and abided in the cessation of perception and feeling. And his taints were destroyed by his seeing with wisdom.
Of course, might be possible, that Sariputta entered cessation while fanning the Buddha, but MN74 still seems to talk on something else than cessation attainment.

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Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by auto » Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:49 pm

Volovsky wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:17 pm
..
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
For half a month, Sariputta clearly saw insight[1] into mental qualities one after another.
from 1-8 to cessation perception and feeling, took half a month, so it shatters also many dogmas about sitting in jhana, or did he sat 15 days and night straight?

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Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by Volovsky » Sat Oct 13, 2018 2:39 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Sat Apr 08, 2017 3:53 am
Tilman Vetter wrote:“it is certainly not possible to observe, as is stated in the text, the disappearance of these qualities in any of these states [i.e., the absorptions], because they are constituted by these qualities.”
:thumbsup:

Arguments don't get much more QED than that. With a single sentence Tilman Vetter cuts asunder endless pages of baloney from the promoters of jhāna-lite.
I also don't think this argument proves his point. One might argue that jhāna factors disappear simply due to momentariness: they disappear each moment and reappear again the next one. But I still think the sutta has some inconsistency:
...these states were defined by him one by one as they occurred; known to him those states arose, known they were present, known they disappeared.

...tyāssa dhammā anupadavavatthitā honti. tyāssa dhammā viditā uppajjanti, viditā upaṭṭhahanti, viditā abbhatthaṃ gacchanti.
But all jhāna factors arise together with each other (I think it is quite clear also from the suttas). If one defines each factor "one by one", then while defining vitakka, one doesn't define vicāra (otherwise it is not "one by one"), which means the arising, presence or disappearance of vicāra is not known to him at this moment.

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Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by Volovsky » Sat Oct 13, 2018 2:45 am

auto wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:49 pm
from 1-8 to cessation perception and feeling, took half a month, so it shatters also many dogmas about sitting in jhana, or did he sat 15 days and night straight?
I don't think I get your point.

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