[MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

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Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by Polar Bear » Wed Oct 10, 2018 6:59 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
Sat Apr 08, 2017 3:53 am
Tilman Vetter wrote:“it is certainly not possible to observe, as is stated in the text, the disappearance of these qualities in any of these states [i.e., the absorptions], because they are constituted by these qualities.”
:thumbsup:

Arguments don't get much more QED than that. With a single sentence Tilman Vetter cuts asunder endless pages of baloney from the promoters of jhāna-lite.
That seems to ignore the fact that persisting feelings are constantly undergoing change and so in a sense are constantly arising and passing away. I’d suggest it isn’t entirely unreasonable to think the passing away of rapture in the first jhana might simply mean noticing that one particular upsurge of rapture is fading, meanwhile another one has just started rising up. I’m pretty sure everyone who has ever meditated on pain knows that it can persist but at the same time one can see how the qualities of the pain are constantly shifting, albeit in subtle ways, and that noticing the constant passing away of pain within a generally persistent state of pain provides a kind of relief.

I’m not going to argue for jhana-lite, I just wanted to point out that the seeming knockdown argument fails to take into account the subtleties of experience. So I don’t find the argument very persuasive. If anything, jhana heavy is just better because I’d imagine that it provides a greater pleasure to rely on in order to abandon sensuality and perhaps because the deeper the concentration the more malleable the mind just after exiting that state.

:anjali:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by DooDoot » Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:09 pm

StormBorn wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:24 pm
Please search the word “anupada” in Mahasi Sayadaw’s Manual of Insight. There are four occurrences of “Anupada Sutta” and one occurrence of “anupadadhamma-vipassanā”. Below is one example:
Instead of insight arising as my head hit the pillow last night (when my mind said MN 111 is "ridiculous non-sense"); insight just arose with the rapture of relief that arises from the morning toileting.

:toilet: The sutta says:
And he distinguished the phenomena in the first absorption one by one:

Whatever qualities there are in the first jhana — he ferreted them out one after another.
To make a positive case for dhammic authenticity, what might possibly be described above is as follows:

1. Naturally, in jhana, the respective factors each jhana (vitakka vicara, piti, sukha, ekaggata, equanimity) are the predominant object and naturally manifest/constitute the jhana (as was argued by Tilman Vetter).

2. However, the nama-dhammas (namely, contact, feeling, perception, intention, mind, enthusiasm, decision, energy, mindfulness and attention) naturally also exist, even though they are not the predominant objects and may not ordinarily be discerned in jhana (due to the predominance of the jhana factors).

3. So in this sutta, Sariputta inclines his mind (somehow) to examine the existence of each of the nama-dhamma.

4. Each nama-dhamma comes into play as Sariputta inclines the mind to examine/ferret each single nama-dhamma and each nama-dhamma ceases to be the object of attention when Sariputta moves on to distinguishing or ferreting the next nama-dhamma.
Friends, all dhammas come into play through attention.

AN 10.58
5. Thus, Sariputta is not distinguishing all of the nama-dhamma at the same time. He distinguishes each nama-dhamma one by one (even though the factors of each jhana remain the predominant objects of mind).

6. In other words, the factors of jhana always remain, in each jhana. Their coming to be was already known and the ceasing will be later known. But to examine each nama-dhamma, the mind inclines (very subtly) and asks very intuitively: "Where is the mindfulness?" and examines it; "Where is the zeal?" and examines it; "Where is the energy?" and examines it, etc.

7. After mindfulness is examined, it ceases as the object of attention when the next dhamma, example, zeal, is examined. So each nama-dhamma comes into play when paying attention to it and each nama-dhamma ceases to be in play when attention moves onto ferretting out the next nama-dhamma.

8. While it remains questionable such intuitive decision making can occur in the 2nd jhana, I think MN 111 is saying what I suggested.

9. Its the same as meditating upon Dependent Origination. First, the mind must know the theory of each dhamma and sub-dhamma listed in SN 12.2. Then the mind turns/inclines itself to ferreting out those Dependently Originated dhammas. The scholars don't do this because generally their minds hold strong doctrinal bias that prevents an open mind of inquiry.

10. If you read my posts on how to meditatively distinguish "nama-rupa" from "sankhara" in Dependent Origination, I explain it exactly the same way as above but no-one bothers to listen and practise what I post because most people have strong doctrinal views about Dependent Origination and are not willing to suspend those doctrinal views in order to ferret out the conditions and sub-conditions of Dependent Origination.

:smile:
Dhammanando wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 3:21 pm
The idea is conveyed most often by adhimuccati, the verb from which adhimokkha derives.
Thank you for that Venerable.
Last edited by DooDoot on Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:47 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by StormBorn » Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:37 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:09 pm
StormBorn wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:24 pm
The above is as I suspected and already mentioned above. MN 111 appears unrelated to Mahasi vipassana. The term "vipassana" in MN 111 appears to equate with the perfection of "sati-sampajanna" in AN 4.41.
Was it a mistake to quote your post under my name? :smile:
“Greater in battle than the man who would conquer a thousand-thousand men, is he who would conquer just one—himself.”

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Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by Dmytro » Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:13 am

Polar Bear wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 6:59 pm
Dhammanando wrote:
Sat Apr 08, 2017 3:53 am
Tilman Vetter wrote:“it is certainly not possible to observe, as is stated in the text, the disappearance of these qualities in any of these states [i.e., the absorptions], because they are constituted by these qualities.”
:thumbsup:

Arguments don't get much more QED than that. With a single sentence Tilman Vetter cuts asunder endless pages of baloney from the promoters of jhāna-lite.
That seems to ignore the fact that persisting feelings are constantly undergoing change and so in a sense are constantly arising and passing away. I’d suggest it isn’t entirely unreasonable to think the passing away of rapture in the first jhana might simply mean noticing that one particular upsurge of rapture is fading, meanwhile another one has just started rising up. I’m pretty sure everyone who has ever meditated on pain knows that it can persist but at the same time one can see how the qualities of the pain are constantly shifting, albeit in subtle ways, and that noticing the constant passing away of pain within a generally persistent state of pain provides a kind of relief.


Yes, indeed, arguments by Tilman Vetter and Analayo are faulty, since jhana is not a building set in stone, it is a dynamic equilibrium of impermanent mental phenomena.
"'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana.' Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk, secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

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Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by auto » Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:11 am

MN 111 https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
The Blessed One said, "Monks, Sariputta is wise, of great discernment, deep discernment, wide... joyous... rapid... quick... penetrating discernment. For half a month, Sariputta clearly saw insight[1] into mental qualities one after another. This is what occurred to Sariputta through insight into mental qualities one after another:
it says he already got knowledge and vision, if insight is amongst knowledge and vision

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"Monks, these are the four developments of concentration. Which four?
There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now.
There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision.
There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness.
There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents.
He compared to that Sutta developed concentration what leads to mindfulness and alertness, if awareness release is associated with mindfulness and alertness.


after that development,
"If a person, rightly saying it of anyone, were to say, 'He is the Blessed One's son, his offspring — born of his mouth, born of the Dhamma, created by the Dhamma, his heir in the Dhamma, not his heir in material things,' he would be rightly saying it of Sariputta if he were to say: 'He is the Blessed One's son, his offspring — born of his mouth, born of the Dhamma, created by the Dhamma, his heir in the Dhamma, not his heir in material things.' Sariputta, monks, takes the unexcelled wheel of Dhamma set rolling by the Tathagata, and keeps it rolling rightly."
He is born of the dhamma, he doesn't roll the wheel of dhamma but is capable of keep rolling the dhamma set in motion by Tathagatha.

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Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by auto » Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:55 am

auto wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:11 am
MN 111 https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
The Blessed One said, "Monks, Sariputta is wise, of great discernment, deep discernment, wide... joyous... rapid... quick... penetrating discernment. For half a month, Sariputta clearly saw insight[1] into mental qualities one after another. This is what occurred to Sariputta through insight into mental qualities one after another:
it says he already got knowledge and vision, if insight is amongst knowledge and vision

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"Monks, these are the four developments of concentration. Which four?
There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now.
There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision.
There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness.
There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents.
He compared to that Sutta developed concentration what leads to mindfulness and alertness, if awareness release is associated with mindfulness and alertness.


after that development,
"If a person, rightly saying it of anyone, were to say, 'He is the Blessed One's son, his offspring — born of his mouth, born of the Dhamma, created by the Dhamma, his heir in the Dhamma, not his heir in material things,' he would be rightly saying it of Sariputta if he were to say: 'He is the Blessed One's son, his offspring — born of his mouth, born of the Dhamma, created by the Dhamma, his heir in the Dhamma, not his heir in material things.' Sariputta, monks, takes the unexcelled wheel of Dhamma set rolling by the Tathagata, and keeps it rolling rightly."
He is born of the dhamma, he doesn't roll the wheel of dhamma but is capable of keep rolling the dhamma set in motion by Tathagatha.
im wrong, if

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Not agitated, he (the monk) is totally unbound right within. He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'"
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is no further escape,' and pursuing it there really wasn't for him.
are meaning same


one more clue is 'awareness rid' of barriers and 'there is no landing of..'
"If a monk abandons passion for the property of consciousness, then owing to the abandonment of passion, the support is cut off, and there is no landing of consciousness. Consciousness, thus not having landed, not increasing, not concocting, is released.
--
but i think the idea is still considerable because its possible that clinging aggregates are mental, mind.

while
2nd development of concentration leads to knowledge and vision, form
the 3rd development is ending feeling and perception, that also included ending of body, speech and mind fabricates.
the 4th development is ending of effluents and these are regards to clinging aggregates, and what is left from past three is 4th and 5th khanda.

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Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by Volovsky » Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:17 pm

Stillness wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2015 1:21 pm
Evidence that this Sutta is later added:
1) Only available in Pali Canon. No parallel versions in Chinese Agamas.
2) Added extra factors after the standard jhana factors without the Pali conjunction 'ca' (and):
phasso vedanā saññā cetanā cittaṃ chando adhimokkho vīriyaṃ sati upekkhā manasikāro.
3) Addition of upekkhā as an extra factor to all four jhanas (twice in the fourth). In other Suttas, upekkhā only mentioned for the fourth jhana.
4) The factor 'adhimokkho' (decision) never appear anywhere in first four Nikayas. It's an Abhidhamma term that only appears in Paṭisambhidāmaggapāḷi & Abhidhammapiṭaka.
5) The Commentary gives the name anupadadhammavipassana to Ven. Sariputta's method, which played a big role especially in later dry Vipassana circles. One example is Mahasi Sayadaw's meditation manual.
Another strange thing about MN 111 is that account of Sariputta's arahatship differs from MN 74:
MN74 wrote:Now on that occasion the venerable Sāriputta was standing behind the Blessed One, fanning him. Then he thought: “The Blessed One, indeed, speaks to us of the abandoning of these things through direct knowledge; the Sublime One, indeed, speaks to us of the relinquishing of these things through direct knowledge.” As the venerable Sāriputta considered this, through not clinging his mind was liberated from the taints.
Whereas MN 111:
MN111 wrote:Again, bhikkhus, by completely surmounting the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, Sāriputta entered upon and abided in the cessation of perception and feeling. And his taints were destroyed by his seeing with wisdom.
Of course, might be possible, that Sariputta entered cessation while fanning the Buddha, but MN74 still seems to talk on something else than cessation attainment.

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Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by auto » Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:49 pm

Volovsky wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:17 pm
..
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
For half a month, Sariputta clearly saw insight[1] into mental qualities one after another.
from 1-8 to cessation perception and feeling, took half a month, so it shatters also many dogmas about sitting in jhana, or did he sat 15 days and night straight?

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Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by Volovsky » Sat Oct 13, 2018 2:39 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Sat Apr 08, 2017 3:53 am
Tilman Vetter wrote:“it is certainly not possible to observe, as is stated in the text, the disappearance of these qualities in any of these states [i.e., the absorptions], because they are constituted by these qualities.”
:thumbsup:

Arguments don't get much more QED than that. With a single sentence Tilman Vetter cuts asunder endless pages of baloney from the promoters of jhāna-lite.
I also don't think this argument proves his point. One might argue that jhāna factors disappear simply due to momentariness: they disappear each moment and reappear again the next one. But I still think the sutta has some inconsistency:
...these states were defined by him one by one as they occurred; known to him those states arose, known they were present, known they disappeared.

...tyāssa dhammā anupadavavatthitā honti. tyāssa dhammā viditā uppajjanti, viditā upaṭṭhahanti, viditā abbhatthaṃ gacchanti.
But all jhāna factors arise together with each other (I think it is quite clear also from the suttas). If one defines each factor "one by one", then while defining vitakka, one doesn't define vicāra (otherwise it is not "one by one"), which means the arising, presence or disappearance of vicāra is not known to him at this moment.

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Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by Volovsky » Sat Oct 13, 2018 2:45 am

auto wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:49 pm
from 1-8 to cessation perception and feeling, took half a month, so it shatters also many dogmas about sitting in jhana, or did he sat 15 days and night straight?
I don't think I get your point.

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Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by DooDoot » Sat Oct 13, 2018 3:17 am

Volovsky wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:17 pm
Another strange thing about MN 111 is that account of Sariputta's arahatship differs from MN 74:
MN74 wrote:Now on that occasion the venerable Sāriputta was standing behind the Blessed One, fanning him. Then he thought: “The Blessed One, indeed, speaks to us of the abandoning of these things through direct knowledge; the Sublime One, indeed, speaks to us of the relinquishing of these things through direct knowledge.” As the venerable Sāriputta considered this, through not clinging his mind was liberated from the taints.
To me, attaining arahantship via merely listening is "strange". Where as attaining arahantship via jhana does not seem "strange" since the 8 fold path refers to jhanas as the path to Nibbana rather than listening to sermons.
Volovsky wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:17 pm
Whereas MN 111:
MN111 wrote:Again, bhikkhus, by completely surmounting the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, Sāriputta entered upon and abided in the cessation of perception and feeling. And his taints were destroyed by his seeing with wisdom.
Of course, might be possible, that Sariputta entered cessation while fanning the Buddha, but MN74 still seems to talk on something else than cessation attainment.
The cessation of perception and feeling is not Nibbana. Nibbana is the destruction of craving; that is; the destruction of the taints.
Volovsky wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 2:39 am
One might argue that jhāna factors disappear simply due to momentariness: they disappear each moment and reappear again the next one.
The above sounds merely intellectual. Jhana is ekaggata thus stability is its satient appearance (patubhavo).
Volovsky wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 2:39 am
But all jhāna factors arise together with each other (I think it is quite clear also from the suttas).
The above appears irrelevant. Just because they arise together in the manifestation (patubhavo) of jhana does not mean they cannot be discerned separately.
Volovsky wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 2:39 am
If one defines each factor "one by one", then while defining vitakka, one doesn't define vicāra (otherwise it is not "one by one"), which means the arising, presence or disappearance of vicāra is not known to him at this moment.
No. If vitakka (application) was the same as sustaining (vicara) then they would be the same. The fact they are two different dhammas shows they can be defined separately.

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Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by auto » Sat Oct 13, 2018 12:19 pm

Volovsky wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 2:45 am
auto wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:49 pm
from 1-8 to cessation perception and feeling, took half a month, so it shatters also many dogmas about sitting in jhana, or did he sat 15 days and night straight?
I don't think I get your point.
MN74 and MN111 tell about destroying taints in two different accounts, maybe its time to reevaluate what taint is, how it is gotten and removed.

Taints appears, is gotten in dependence, it can be handcuffs(handcuffs are taints because they are because of your hands) so regards to that if you don't know how to get rid of them then your all activities are tainted by these, you can act accordingly those.
So if you remove handcuffs you don't act or do the things what were forced upon you. Likewise household life is same. If you remove certain taint then you don't do household life. (it may be that Sutta examples are crude examples so its possible that its just to give a picture, possible also is some people start rushing ending ties with family and relatives after reading some Suttas)

Sensual desire regards to pain. You may notice sensual desire at 10 units of pain and get free of it, but at 100 you don't even recon hindrance but act like a puppet accordingly, for someone(who is free from shackles of sensual desire at 100 units) you may look like someone with mental illness.

So i post that look it says 15(half month) days it took go through jhanas for him. What jhana is or how its entered and coming out one after another may be different from popular opinions of what jhanas are and perhaps the popular understanding of what jhana is is the only possible one for them and have t o start from there, but once they get over that by removing taints they will do a big facepalm when rad MN 111 again.

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Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by Volovsky » Sun Oct 14, 2018 4:32 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 3:17 am
To me, attaining arahantship via merely listening is "strange". Where as attaining arahantship via jhana does not seem "strange" since the 8 fold path refers to jhanas as the path to Nibbana rather than listening to sermons.

Agree. But MN74 has several parallels in Chinese, and they agree that Sariputta attained arahantship at the end of the discourse. MN111 has no parallels.
The above appears irrelevant. Just because they arise together in the manifestation (patubhavo) of jhana does not mean they cannot be discerned separately.
He did two things: 1. Defined each jhāna factor one by one, 2. Knew arising, presence and disappearance of each factor. While defining vitakka separately from the other factors, he doesn't know the arising/presence/disappearance of vicāra and other factors, which is present at this moment.

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Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by DooDoot » Sun Oct 14, 2018 4:37 am

Volovsky wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 4:32 am
he doesn't know the arising/presence/disappearance of vicāra and other factors, which is present at this moment.
I already posted about this when I referred to the 3rd development in AN 4.41, where the "arising/presence/disappearance" pertains to sati-sampajanna rather than to modern ideas about vipassana. I mentioned in my 1st post how the modern commentators are imputing Mahasi vipassana onto this; which I believe is wrong.

Therefore, I suggest to read AN 4.41, where the 3rd development is sati-sampajanna and the 4th development is modern vipassana. MN 111 uses the same terminology as the 3rd development of sati-sampajanna in AN 4.41.
"And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness? There is the case where feelings are known to the monk as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Perceptions are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Thoughts are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness.

"And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is perception, such its origination, such its passing away. Such are fabrications, such their origination, such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents.

AN 4.41
MN 111 appears to not be about these mental factors "flashing on & off" ("arising & falling away") but about knowing when they arise, persist and cease. In other words, these mental factors might persist for many hours before they subside.

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