[MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
Bakmoon
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Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by Bakmoon » Fri Jan 08, 2016 5:07 pm

Sylvester wrote:Is this reading even necessary? Occam's Razor would suggest that the normal periphrastic construction is the easiest, so I would take the phrase to simply mean "they were discriminated successively" and complete drop "as they occurred". This lean interpretation does the least violence to such absorption suttas such as DN 9 and DA 28, which posit that the perception in the attainments is very singular, not diverse. See how the singular perception proposition is repeated for emphasis in each passage.
I agree with you. There is no real loss of intelligibility or meaning by just translating it focusing on the sense of succession as the primary meaning. If anything, the addition of 'as they occurred' is an interpolation. Although that particular meaning could be present in the text in some rather incidental fashion, I think it is clear from the context that the emphasis of the passage is on the fact that the Ven. Sariputta discerned such states one after the other, and by taking on the phrase "as they occured" one changes the emphasis.

Even though I happen to accept the position that this addition hints toward, I don't think that such an idea is actually present in this passage.

By the way, could you please tell me what the relavent portions of DN 9 and DA 28 are? I remember going through DN 9 and not really understanding the point because I didn't quite know what I was looking for. It sounds to me that in DN 9 the Buddha is talking about how in the jhanas up to the sphere of nothingness, one replaces the perception of one thing with the perception of the thing specific to that jhana, and that perception only comes to an end during cessation.
The non-doing of any evil,
The performance of what's skillful,
The cleansing of one's own mind:
This is the Buddhas' teaching.

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Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by Sylvester » Sat Jan 09, 2016 4:52 am

WorldTraveller wrote: Hi Sylvester,

According to your Pali knowledge, the below understanding occured in the jhana or after the jhana? Thanks in advance.
He understood thus, "So indeed, these states, not having been, come into being; having been, they vanish. There is an escape beyond, and with the cultivation of that [attainment]." He confirmed that there is.
Hi WorldTraveller

I don't think it is possible for such an insight to have arisen within a jhana. Some time back, I explained my views for how this insight arises - http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 80#p222720" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by Sylvester » Sat Jan 09, 2016 5:36 am

Bakmoon wrote: By the way, could you please tell me what the relavent portions of DN 9 and DA 28 are? I remember going through DN 9 and not really understanding the point because I didn't quite know what I was looking for. It sounds to me that in DN 9 the Buddha is talking about how in the jhanas up to the sphere of nothingness, one replaces the perception of one thing with the perception of the thing specific to that jhana, and that perception only comes to an end during cessation.

Hi Bakmoon

The passages I had in mind about the singularity of perception in each of the perception-attainments in DN 9 is this -
ABC­su­khuma­sacca­saññā tasmiṃ samaye hoti, ABC­su­khuma­sac­casaññī­yeva tasmiṃ samaye hoti

...on that occasion there is a perception of a refined truth of ABC. On that occasion he is one who is percipient of a refined truth of ABC.
Note that the copula that is used is the singular hoti, instead of the plural honti. Note also that the declaration of that meditator being a "perceiver of a subtle but real ABC" is marked by the emphatic eva.

Since we are discussing this in the Early Buddhism section, I can afford to be less pious and more critical. I honestly cannot pretend to define vavatthita as carrying anything other than its full-blown Psm meaning, instead of trying to delimit it to perception simpliciter as per my previous discussion with you. That being the case, having this activity going on in a jhana runs counter to DN 9 as follows -
Yato kho, poṭṭhapāda, bhikkhu idha sakasaññī hoti, so tato amutra tato amutra anupubbena saññaggaṃ phusati. Tassa saññagge ṭhitassa evaṃ hoti: ‘cetayamānassa me pāpiyo, acetayamānassa me seyyo. Ahañceva kho pana ceteyyaṃ, abhi­saṅ­kha­reyyaṃ, imā ca me saññā nirujjheyyuṃ, aññā ca oḷārikā saññā uppajjeyyuṃ; yannūnāhaṃ na ceva ceteyyaṃ na ca abhi­saṅ­kha­reyyan’ti. So na ceva ceteti, na ca abhisaṅkharoti. Tassa acetayato anabhi­saṅ­kha­roto tā ceva saññā nirujjhanti, aññā ca oḷārikā saññā na uppajjanti. So nirodhaṃ phusati.

Now, when the monk is percipient of himself here, then from there to there, step by step, he touches the peak of perception. Regarding that station at the peak of perception, the thought occurs to him, ‘Thinking is bad for me. Not thinking is better for me. If I were to think and will, these perceptions of mine would cease, and other grosser perceptions would appear. What if I were neither to think nor to will?’ So he neither thinks nor wills, and as he is neither thinking nor willing, those perceptions cease and other, grosser perceptions do not appear. He touches cessation.

(using Ven T's translation, but correcting the errors as underlined. For the bit in red, I've also taken the allowance in Pali to treat ṭhita as a substantive noun, instead of its normal function as a verb or adjective; see Warder and Buddhadata, and translating saññagge ṭhitassa as being 2 substantive nouns. The Chinese parallel has 彼得此想 已 ("having already reached that perception" with 已 showing that the Chinese translator understood the past participle to be operating to separate the stationing from the evaṃ hoti/作是念/ the thought occurs to him.)

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Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by Bakmoon » Tue Jan 12, 2016 5:15 am

Sylvester wrote:Hi Bakmoon

The passages I had in mind about the singularity of perception in each of the perception-attainments in DN 9 is this -
ABC­su­khuma­sacca­saññā tasmiṃ samaye hoti, ABC­su­khuma­sac­casaññī­yeva tasmiṃ samaye hoti

...on that occasion there is a perception of a refined truth of ABC. On that occasion he is one who is percipient of a refined truth of ABC.
Note that the copula that is used is the singular hoti, instead of the plural honti. Note also that the declaration of that meditator being a "perceiver of a subtle but real ABC" is marked by the emphatic eva.
Ah, yes, that makes a lot more sense to me now that you've explained it in detail. I have no problem with saying that the jhanas involve the development of a singular perception free from diversity, especially in light of similar teachings found in other texts such as MN 121. Somehow I misread you at first and thought you were arguing against perception in the lower jhanas.
Sylvester wrote: Since we are discussing this in the Early Buddhism section, I can afford to be less pious and more critical. I honestly cannot pretend to define vavatthita as carrying anything other than its full-blown Psm meaning, instead of trying to delimit it to perception simpliciter as per my previous discussion with you. That being the case, having this activity going on in a jhana runs counter to DN 9 as follows -
Yato kho, poṭṭhapāda, bhikkhu idha sakasaññī hoti, so tato amutra tato amutra anupubbena saññaggaṃ phusati. Tassa saññagge ṭhitassa evaṃ hoti: ‘cetayamānassa me pāpiyo, acetayamānassa me seyyo. Ahañceva kho pana ceteyyaṃ, abhi­saṅ­kha­reyyaṃ, imā ca me saññā nirujjheyyuṃ, aññā ca oḷārikā saññā uppajjeyyuṃ; yannūnāhaṃ na ceva ceteyyaṃ na ca abhi­saṅ­kha­reyyan’ti. So na ceva ceteti, na ca abhisaṅkharoti. Tassa acetayato anabhi­saṅ­kha­roto tā ceva saññā nirujjhanti, aññā ca oḷārikā saññā na uppajjanti. So nirodhaṃ phusati.

Now, when the monk is percipient of himself here, then from there to there, step by step, he touches the peak of perception. Regarding that station at the peak of perception, the thought occurs to him, ‘Thinking is bad for me. Not thinking is better for me. If I were to think and will, these perceptions of mine would cease, and other grosser perceptions would appear. What if I were neither to think nor to will?’ So he neither thinks nor wills, and as he is neither thinking nor willing, those perceptions cease and other, grosser perceptions do not appear. He touches cessation.

(using Ven T's translation, but correcting the errors as underlined. For the bit in red, I've also taken the allowance in Pali to treat ṭhita as a substantive noun, instead of its normal function as a verb or adjective; see Warder and Buddhadata, and translating saññagge ṭhitassa as being 2 substantive nouns. The Chinese parallel has 彼得此想 已 ("having already reached that perception" with 已 showing that the Chinese translator understood the past participle to be operating to separate the stationing from the evaṃ hoti/作是念/ the thought occurs to him.)
Very true. But I still think that given the structure of the Anupada Sutta as a whole, understanding the term vavatthita in a more qualified sense does less violence to the plain meaning of the text than it does by saying that the text indicates the withdrawal from jhana in the case of the percipient attainments.

Of course, that is all assuming that one wishes to harmonize the Anupada Sutta with the rest of the Canon in the first place. Given that its very anomalous cut and paste job of the jhana factors from the abhidhamma in addition to the strangeness regarding the jhanas and lack of chinese parallels, perhaps it might make more sense to just accept that the Anupada sutta contradicts the more mainline suttas.
The non-doing of any evil,
The performance of what's skillful,
The cleansing of one's own mind:
This is the Buddhas' teaching.

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Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by Stillness » Fri Apr 07, 2017 1:09 pm

To cultivate such awareness of these mental qualities arising and disappearing while being in an absorption is impossible, because the very presence of these qualities is required for there to be an absorption in the first place and for it to continue being a state of absorption.24

__________
24 This has in fact already been pointed out by Vetter 1988: 69: “it is certainly not possible to observe, as is stated in the text, the disappearance of these qualities in any of these states [i.e., the absorptions], because they are constituted by these qualities.”
Quoted from pg. 121 of Early Buddhist Meditation Studies by Ven. Anālayo

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Dhammanando
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Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by Dhammanando » Sat Apr 08, 2017 3:53 am

Tilman Vetter wrote:“it is certainly not possible to observe, as is stated in the text, the disappearance of these qualities in any of these states [i.e., the absorptions], because they are constituted by these qualities.”
:thumbsup:

Arguments don't get much more QED than that. With a single sentence Tilman Vetter cuts asunder endless pages of baloney from the promoters of jhāna-lite.

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Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Apr 08, 2017 4:21 am

Interesting observation.

I live in hope that people will cease using the classifications sutta vs visuddhimagga jhana, and instead talk about light vs heavy jhana...

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robertk
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Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by robertk » Sat Apr 08, 2017 4:22 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Tilman Vetter wrote:“it is certainly not possible to observe, as is stated in the text, the disappearance of these qualities in any of these states [i.e., the absorptions], because they are constituted by these qualities.”
:thumbsup:

Arguments don't get much more QED than that. With a single sentence Tilman Vetter cuts asunder endless pages of baloney from the promoters of jhāna-lite.
:anjali: :anjali: :anjali:

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robertk
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Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by robertk » Sun Apr 09, 2017 5:57 am

mikenz66 wrote:Interesting observation.

I live in hope that people will cease using the classifications sutta vs visuddhimagga jhana, and instead talk about light vs heavy jhana...



:heart:
Mike
And what is jhana lite? or jhana heavy?

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mikenz66
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Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Apr 09, 2017 7:48 am

Jhana heavy is jhana of the depth describe in the Visuddhimagga, or by various teachers, such as Vens Analayo, Brahm, etc, on the basis of the suttas.

Jhana light is not as heavy... :tongue:

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2600htz
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Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by 2600htz » Thu May 04, 2017 12:18 am

Hello:

Honestly i dont see anything against the dhamma in this sutta.

Basically its saying that Sariputta was aware of what was happening?. That
can´t be so bad right?.

Regards.

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CedarTree
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Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by CedarTree » Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:50 pm

"Anupadadhammavipassana"

Wow now that is a word!


Practice, Practice, Practice


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