[MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
Bakmoon
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Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by Bakmoon » Fri Jan 08, 2016 5:07 pm

Sylvester wrote:Is this reading even necessary? Occam's Razor would suggest that the normal periphrastic construction is the easiest, so I would take the phrase to simply mean "they were discriminated successively" and complete drop "as they occurred". This lean interpretation does the least violence to such absorption suttas such as DN 9 and DA 28, which posit that the perception in the attainments is very singular, not diverse. See how the singular perception proposition is repeated for emphasis in each passage.
I agree with you. There is no real loss of intelligibility or meaning by just translating it focusing on the sense of succession as the primary meaning. If anything, the addition of 'as they occurred' is an interpolation. Although that particular meaning could be present in the text in some rather incidental fashion, I think it is clear from the context that the emphasis of the passage is on the fact that the Ven. Sariputta discerned such states one after the other, and by taking on the phrase "as they occured" one changes the emphasis.

Even though I happen to accept the position that this addition hints toward, I don't think that such an idea is actually present in this passage.

By the way, could you please tell me what the relavent portions of DN 9 and DA 28 are? I remember going through DN 9 and not really understanding the point because I didn't quite know what I was looking for. It sounds to me that in DN 9 the Buddha is talking about how in the jhanas up to the sphere of nothingness, one replaces the perception of one thing with the perception of the thing specific to that jhana, and that perception only comes to an end during cessation.
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Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by Sylvester » Sat Jan 09, 2016 4:52 am

WorldTraveller wrote: Hi Sylvester,

According to your Pali knowledge, the below understanding occured in the jhana or after the jhana? Thanks in advance.
He understood thus, "So indeed, these states, not having been, come into being; having been, they vanish. There is an escape beyond, and with the cultivation of that [attainment]." He confirmed that there is.
Hi WorldTraveller

I don't think it is possible for such an insight to have arisen within a jhana. Some time back, I explained my views for how this insight arises - http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 80#p222720" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by Sylvester » Sat Jan 09, 2016 5:36 am

Bakmoon wrote: By the way, could you please tell me what the relavent portions of DN 9 and DA 28 are? I remember going through DN 9 and not really understanding the point because I didn't quite know what I was looking for. It sounds to me that in DN 9 the Buddha is talking about how in the jhanas up to the sphere of nothingness, one replaces the perception of one thing with the perception of the thing specific to that jhana, and that perception only comes to an end during cessation.

Hi Bakmoon

The passages I had in mind about the singularity of perception in each of the perception-attainments in DN 9 is this -
ABC­su­khuma­sacca­saññā tasmiṃ samaye hoti, ABC­su­khuma­sac­casaññī­yeva tasmiṃ samaye hoti

...on that occasion there is a perception of a refined truth of ABC. On that occasion he is one who is percipient of a refined truth of ABC.
Note that the copula that is used is the singular hoti, instead of the plural honti. Note also that the declaration of that meditator being a "perceiver of a subtle but real ABC" is marked by the emphatic eva.

Since we are discussing this in the Early Buddhism section, I can afford to be less pious and more critical. I honestly cannot pretend to define vavatthita as carrying anything other than its full-blown Psm meaning, instead of trying to delimit it to perception simpliciter as per my previous discussion with you. That being the case, having this activity going on in a jhana runs counter to DN 9 as follows -
Yato kho, poṭṭhapāda, bhikkhu idha sakasaññī hoti, so tato amutra tato amutra anupubbena saññaggaṃ phusati. Tassa saññagge ṭhitassa evaṃ hoti: ‘cetayamānassa me pāpiyo, acetayamānassa me seyyo. Ahañceva kho pana ceteyyaṃ, abhi­saṅ­kha­reyyaṃ, imā ca me saññā nirujjheyyuṃ, aññā ca oḷārikā saññā uppajjeyyuṃ; yannūnāhaṃ na ceva ceteyyaṃ na ca abhi­saṅ­kha­reyyan’ti. So na ceva ceteti, na ca abhisaṅkharoti. Tassa acetayato anabhi­saṅ­kha­roto tā ceva saññā nirujjhanti, aññā ca oḷārikā saññā na uppajjanti. So nirodhaṃ phusati.

Now, when the monk is percipient of himself here, then from there to there, step by step, he touches the peak of perception. Regarding that station at the peak of perception, the thought occurs to him, ‘Thinking is bad for me. Not thinking is better for me. If I were to think and will, these perceptions of mine would cease, and other grosser perceptions would appear. What if I were neither to think nor to will?’ So he neither thinks nor wills, and as he is neither thinking nor willing, those perceptions cease and other, grosser perceptions do not appear. He touches cessation.

(using Ven T's translation, but correcting the errors as underlined. For the bit in red, I've also taken the allowance in Pali to treat ṭhita as a substantive noun, instead of its normal function as a verb or adjective; see Warder and Buddhadata, and translating saññagge ṭhitassa as being 2 substantive nouns. The Chinese parallel has 彼得此想 已 ("having already reached that perception" with 已 showing that the Chinese translator understood the past participle to be operating to separate the stationing from the evaṃ hoti/作是念/ the thought occurs to him.)

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Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by Bakmoon » Tue Jan 12, 2016 5:15 am

Sylvester wrote:Hi Bakmoon

The passages I had in mind about the singularity of perception in each of the perception-attainments in DN 9 is this -
ABC­su­khuma­sacca­saññā tasmiṃ samaye hoti, ABC­su­khuma­sac­casaññī­yeva tasmiṃ samaye hoti

...on that occasion there is a perception of a refined truth of ABC. On that occasion he is one who is percipient of a refined truth of ABC.
Note that the copula that is used is the singular hoti, instead of the plural honti. Note also that the declaration of that meditator being a "perceiver of a subtle but real ABC" is marked by the emphatic eva.
Ah, yes, that makes a lot more sense to me now that you've explained it in detail. I have no problem with saying that the jhanas involve the development of a singular perception free from diversity, especially in light of similar teachings found in other texts such as MN 121. Somehow I misread you at first and thought you were arguing against perception in the lower jhanas.
Sylvester wrote: Since we are discussing this in the Early Buddhism section, I can afford to be less pious and more critical. I honestly cannot pretend to define vavatthita as carrying anything other than its full-blown Psm meaning, instead of trying to delimit it to perception simpliciter as per my previous discussion with you. That being the case, having this activity going on in a jhana runs counter to DN 9 as follows -
Yato kho, poṭṭhapāda, bhikkhu idha sakasaññī hoti, so tato amutra tato amutra anupubbena saññaggaṃ phusati. Tassa saññagge ṭhitassa evaṃ hoti: ‘cetayamānassa me pāpiyo, acetayamānassa me seyyo. Ahañceva kho pana ceteyyaṃ, abhi­saṅ­kha­reyyaṃ, imā ca me saññā nirujjheyyuṃ, aññā ca oḷārikā saññā uppajjeyyuṃ; yannūnāhaṃ na ceva ceteyyaṃ na ca abhi­saṅ­kha­reyyan’ti. So na ceva ceteti, na ca abhisaṅkharoti. Tassa acetayato anabhi­saṅ­kha­roto tā ceva saññā nirujjhanti, aññā ca oḷārikā saññā na uppajjanti. So nirodhaṃ phusati.

Now, when the monk is percipient of himself here, then from there to there, step by step, he touches the peak of perception. Regarding that station at the peak of perception, the thought occurs to him, ‘Thinking is bad for me. Not thinking is better for me. If I were to think and will, these perceptions of mine would cease, and other grosser perceptions would appear. What if I were neither to think nor to will?’ So he neither thinks nor wills, and as he is neither thinking nor willing, those perceptions cease and other, grosser perceptions do not appear. He touches cessation.

(using Ven T's translation, but correcting the errors as underlined. For the bit in red, I've also taken the allowance in Pali to treat ṭhita as a substantive noun, instead of its normal function as a verb or adjective; see Warder and Buddhadata, and translating saññagge ṭhitassa as being 2 substantive nouns. The Chinese parallel has 彼得此想 已 ("having already reached that perception" with 已 showing that the Chinese translator understood the past participle to be operating to separate the stationing from the evaṃ hoti/作是念/ the thought occurs to him.)
Very true. But I still think that given the structure of the Anupada Sutta as a whole, understanding the term vavatthita in a more qualified sense does less violence to the plain meaning of the text than it does by saying that the text indicates the withdrawal from jhana in the case of the percipient attainments.

Of course, that is all assuming that one wishes to harmonize the Anupada Sutta with the rest of the Canon in the first place. Given that its very anomalous cut and paste job of the jhana factors from the abhidhamma in addition to the strangeness regarding the jhanas and lack of chinese parallels, perhaps it might make more sense to just accept that the Anupada sutta contradicts the more mainline suttas.
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Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by Stillness » Fri Apr 07, 2017 1:09 pm

To cultivate such awareness of these mental qualities arising and disappearing while being in an absorption is impossible, because the very presence of these qualities is required for there to be an absorption in the first place and for it to continue being a state of absorption.24

__________
24 This has in fact already been pointed out by Vetter 1988: 69: “it is certainly not possible to observe, as is stated in the text, the disappearance of these qualities in any of these states [i.e., the absorptions], because they are constituted by these qualities.”
Quoted from pg. 121 of Early Buddhist Meditation Studies by Ven. Anālayo

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Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by Dhammanando » Sat Apr 08, 2017 3:53 am

Tilman Vetter wrote:“it is certainly not possible to observe, as is stated in the text, the disappearance of these qualities in any of these states [i.e., the absorptions], because they are constituted by these qualities.”
:thumbsup:

Arguments don't get much more QED than that. With a single sentence Tilman Vetter cuts asunder endless pages of baloney from the promoters of jhāna-lite.

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Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Apr 08, 2017 4:21 am

Interesting observation.

I live in hope that people will cease using the classifications sutta vs visuddhimagga jhana, and instead talk about light vs heavy jhana...

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Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by robertk » Sat Apr 08, 2017 4:22 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Tilman Vetter wrote:“it is certainly not possible to observe, as is stated in the text, the disappearance of these qualities in any of these states [i.e., the absorptions], because they are constituted by these qualities.”
:thumbsup:

Arguments don't get much more QED than that. With a single sentence Tilman Vetter cuts asunder endless pages of baloney from the promoters of jhāna-lite.
:anjali: :anjali: :anjali:

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Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by robertk » Sun Apr 09, 2017 5:57 am

mikenz66 wrote:Interesting observation.

I live in hope that people will cease using the classifications sutta vs visuddhimagga jhana, and instead talk about light vs heavy jhana...



:heart:
Mike
And what is jhana lite? or jhana heavy?

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Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Apr 09, 2017 7:48 am

Jhana heavy is jhana of the depth describe in the Visuddhimagga, or by various teachers, such as Vens Analayo, Brahm, etc, on the basis of the suttas.

Jhana light is not as heavy... :tongue:

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Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by 2600htz » Thu May 04, 2017 12:18 am

Hello:

Honestly i dont see anything against the dhamma in this sutta.

Basically its saying that Sariputta was aware of what was happening?. That
can´t be so bad right?.

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Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by CedarTree » Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:50 pm

"Anupadadhammavipassana"

Wow now that is a word!


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Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by DooDoot » Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:09 am

StormBorn wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:53 pm
Now, if you say MN 111 is late, that’s totally fine since “0” parallels and the content fails horribly against multiple points of Dhamma.
I don't have the knowledge to analyse this linguistically but a quick look finds "adhimokkho" to be alien to the suttas and the use of "vipassana" seems unusual (although not fatally) because the seeing the arising (uppajjanti), persisting (upaṭṭhahanti) and subsiding (abbhatthaṃ) of those nama dhamma (namely, contact, feeling, perception, intention, mind, enthusiasm, decision, energy, mindfulness and attention) is called sati-sampajaññā in suttas such as AN 4.41. That is, the words uppajjanti, upaṭṭhahanti and abbhatthaṃ appears also in AN 4.41 and refer to the same "perfection of sati-sampajaññā". However, due to this point about AN 4.41, I have never sensed it "fails horribly" against multiple points of Dhamma. In fact, I always found the sutta is Dhammically authentic (but it won't be for those that believe they practise "suppression jhana"). For those that practise jhana as taught by the Buddha (in SN 48.9 and 10; and MN 118) where "letting go" (vossagga) is the meditation object, MN 111 does not sound alien; particularly the phrase: "Discerned there is an escape beyond". I will respond to the OP.
Stillness wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2015 1:21 pm
MN 111 (Anupada Sutta) is the commentarial reference of anupadadhammavipassana (Insight into states in successive order by way of the meditative attainments and the jhana factors). According to this Sutta Ven. Sariputta managed to accomplish the below tasks while in the jhana.

1) He defined each mental states one by one as they occurred.
2) He was aware of the mental states arising, their presence, and their disappearance.
3) He understood thus, "So indeed, these states, not having been, come into being; having been, they vanish. There is an escape beyond, and with the cultivation of that [attainment]." He confirmed that there is.

That's a lot of mind movements (thinking) for a person in a jhana! And, he did so for all four jhanas, and also for the first three immaterial attainments.
It seems the above post is imputing "Mahasi Vipassana" ideas onto MN 111. MN 111 uses the words "arising (uppajjanti), persisting (upaṭṭhahanti) and subsiding (abbhatthaṃ)", which in AN 4.41 describe the perfection of sati-sampajanna. Therefore, the idea that these nama-dhamma in MN 111 are rapidly arising & passing Mahasi-style seems a misinterpretation. All that appears said here is when these nama-dhamma may operate in a salient way or relax, this is discerned as soon as it happens.
Stillness wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2015 1:21 pm
Evidence that this Sutta is later added:
1) Only available in Pali Canon. No parallel versions in Chinese Agamas.
:zzz:
2) Added extra factors after the standard jhana factors without the Pali conjunction 'ca' (and):
phasso vedanā saññā cetanā cittaṃ chando adhimokkho vīriyaṃ sati upekkhā manasikāro.
'Ca' is not used in SN 12.2 when vedanā, saññā, cetanā, phasso, manasikāro are mentioned. Since these 'scholars' hold idiosycratic views about what 'nama-rupa' is in SN 12.2, the impression is these idiosycratic views impact upon their views of what vedanā, saññā, cetanā, phasso, manasikāro refers to in MN 111.
3) Addition of upekkhā as an extra factor to all four jhanas (twice in the fourth). In other Suttas, upekkhā only mentioned for the fourth jhana.
Upekkha would be discernible in each jhana when "letting go" is used to attained jhana (per SN 48.9 and 10).
4) The factor 'adhimokkho' (decision) never appear anywhere in first four Nikayas. It's an Abhidhamma term that only appears in Paṭisambhidāmaggapāḷi & Abhidhammapiṭaka.
Sure. The smoking gun or WTC Building 7. But this does not make MN 111 fail horribly against multiple points of Dhamma.
5) The Commentary gives the name anupadadhammavipassana to Ven. Sariputta's method, which played a big role especially in later dry Vipassana circles. One example is Mahasi Sayadaw's meditation manual.
The above is as I suspected and already mentioned above. MN 111 appears unrelated to Mahasi vipassana. The term "vipassana" in MN 111 appears to equate with the perfection of "sati-sampajanna" in AN 4.41.
Later in the Sutta, for the fourth immaterial attainment, it says, "He emerged mindful from that attainment. Having done so, he contemplated [samanupassati] the states that had passed, ceased, and changed," which is the correct way of insight for any jhana since no contemplation is possible in a jhana (see DN 2 & AN 3.101).
:shrug:
EDIT: 2017 April 07
The below quote is from pg. 121 of Early Buddhist Meditation Studies by Ven. Anālayo
To cultivate such awareness of these mental qualities arising and disappearing while being in an absorption is impossible, because the very presence of these qualities is required for there to be an absorption in the first place and for it to continue being a state of absorption.24
__________
24 This has in fact already been pointed out by Vetter 1988: 69: “it is certainly not possible to observe, as is stated in the text, the disappearance of these qualities in any of these states [i.e., the absorptions], because they are constituted by these qualities.”
While the above conclusions are logical, they might be too literal. While I can't counter the above conclusions, I would apply more thought to it; such as reflecting on this teaching from the perspective of the 3rd development in AN 4.41. Also, the key word here "vidita" probably should be examined. In short, my impression, as said, is the commentators are imputing Mahasi ideas onto the sutta rather than AN 4.41.

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Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by StormBorn » Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:24 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:09 am
It seems the above post is imputing "Mahasi Vipassana" ideas onto MN 111. MN 111 uses the words "arising (uppajjanti), persisting (upaṭṭhahanti) and subsiding (abbhatthaṃ)", which in AN 4.41 describe the perfection of sati-sampajanna. Therefore, the idea that these nama-dhamma in MN 111 are rapidly arising & passing Mahasi-style seems a misinterpretation. All that appears said here is when these nama-dhamma may operate in a salient way or relax, this is discerned as soon as it happens.
DooDoot wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:09 am
The above is as I suspected and already mentioned above. MN 111 appears unrelated to Mahasi vipassana. The term "vipassana" in MN 111 appears to equate with the perfection of "sati-sampajanna" in AN 4.41.
Please search the word “anupada” in Mahasi Sayadaw’s Manual of Insight. There are four occurrences of “Anupada Sutta” and one occurrence of “anupadadhamma-vipassanā”. Below is one example:
The following passage from the subcommentary on the Anupada Sutta shows how the Venerable Moggallāna became fully enlightened by meditating on only some of the objects that Buddhist disciples usually observe:
...
“Greater in battle than the man who would conquer a thousand-thousand men, is he who would conquer just one—himself.”

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Re: [MN 111] Fallacy of Anupadadhammavipassana while in a jhana

Post by Dhammanando » Wed Oct 10, 2018 3:21 pm

This talk of the rarity of the word adhimokkha in the suttas seems a bit of a :redherring: to me.

Though the word may be rare, what it denotes most certainly is not. The idea is conveyed most often by adhimuccati, the verb from which adhimokkha derives.

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