New wikipedia article, Dhyana sutras (Chan Jing)

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
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Javi
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New wikipedia article, Dhyana sutras (Chan Jing)

Post by Javi »

I like to edit wikipedia sometimes on a topic of interest and I saw that there was no article for the Dhyana sutras, so I spent the day making one. Check it out folks, I found it a very interesting topic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhy%C4%81na_sutras" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Vayadhammā saṅkhārā appamādena sampādethā — All things decay and disappoint, it is through vigilance that you succeed — Mahāparinibbāna Sutta

Self-taught poverty is a help toward philosophy, for the things which philosophy attempts to teach by reasoning, poverty forces us to practice. — Diogenes of Sinope

I have seen all things that are done under the sun, and behold, all is vanity and a chase after wind — Ecclesiastes 1.14
LXNDR
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Re: New wikipedia article, Dhyana sutras (Chan Jing)

Post by LXNDR »

wow, i stumbled upon it recently and read with keen interest

so thank you for your consideration and effort :anjali:
paul
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Re: New wikipedia article, Dhyana sutras (Chan Jing)

Post by paul »

I wish someone with the relevant skills would correct this information on the Wikipedia page for Theravada, because insight is gradual:

"Insight is sudden and perfect[edit]
According to the Theravāda, "progress in understanding comes all at once, 'insight' (abhisamaya) does not come 'gradually' (successively - anapurva)".[54] This is reflected in the Theravāda-account on the four levels of attainment, in which the attainment of the four paths appears suddenly, and the defilements are rooted out at once.[e] The same stance is taken in the contemporary Vipassana movement, especially the "New Burmese Method"."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theravada ... nd_perfect" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

-----Buddhist Dictionary:
progress of the disciple, Gradual development of the Eightfold Path in the:
In many suttas occurs an identical passage that outlines the gradual course of development in the progress of the disciple. There it is shown how this development takes place gradually, and in conformity with laws, from the very first hearing of the doctrine, and from germinating faith and dim comprehension, up to the final realization of deliverance.
D.1, 2f; M. 27, 38, 51, 60, 76; A. IV, 198; X, 99: Pug. 239, etc.
Last edited by paul on Fri Jun 26, 2015 4:26 am, edited 2 times in total.
SarathW
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Re: New wikipedia article, Dhyana sutras (Chan Jing)

Post by SarathW »

I have read it somewhere it is gradual as well as sudden.
Like the slop of the sea. It is gradual but some times you find a sudden drop.
:thinking:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
LXNDR
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Re: New wikipedia article, Dhyana sutras (Chan Jing)

Post by LXNDR »

paul wrote:I wish someone with the relevant skills would correct this information on the Wikipedia page for Theravada, because insight is gradual:

"Insight is sudden and perfect[edit]
According to the Theravāda, "progress in understanding comes all at once, 'insight' (abhisamaya) does not come 'gradually' (successively - anapurva)".[54] This is reflected in the Theravāda-account on the four levels of attainment, in which the attainment of the four paths appears suddenly, and the defilements are rooted out at once.[e] The same stance is taken in the contemporary Vipassana movement, especially the "New Burmese Method"."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theravada ... nd_perfect" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

-----Buddhist Dictionary:
progress of the disciple, Gradual development of the Eightfold Path in the:
In many suttas occurs an identical passage that outlines the gradual course of development in the progress of the disciple. There it is shown how this development takes place gradually, and in conformity with laws, from the very first hearing of the doctrine, and from germinating faith and dim comprehension, up to the final realization of deliverance.
D.1, 2f; M. 27, 38, 51, 60, 76; A. IV, 198; X, 99: Pug. 239, etc.
i think what gradual is development, creation of conditions for the insight, which itself occurs momentarily

for example the stock passage of sotapanna level attainment suggests its suddenness
Gilana sutta (SN 35.74) wrote:
And while this explanation was being given, there arose in the monk the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye: Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation.
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Dhammanando
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Re: New wikipedia article, Dhyana sutras (Chan Jing)

Post by Dhammanando »

paul wrote:I wish someone with the relevant skills would correct this information on the Wikipedia page for Theravada, because insight is gradual:

"Insight is sudden and perfect[edit]
According to the Theravāda, "progress in understanding comes all at once, 'insight' (abhisamaya) does not come 'gradually' (successively - anapurva)".[54] This is reflected in the Theravāda-account on the four levels of attainment, in which the attainment of the four paths appears suddenly, and the defilements are rooted out at once.[e] The same stance is taken in the contemporary Vipassana movement, especially the "New Burmese Method"."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theravada ... nd_perfect
Your quotation is from a section entitled "Doctrinal differences with other schools". In such a context the statement is quite correct: the developed Theravāda was indeed one of the ekābhisamaya or "sudden enlightenment" schools, as opposed to the anupubbābhisamaya or "gradual enlightenment" schools like the Andhakas, Sarvastivādins, Sammītiyas and Bhadrayānikas.

Since in the Suttas one will find passages that appear to support both views, this became quite a major topic of debate at the Third Council. For the Kathāvatthu's record of this:

https://suttacentral.net/en/kv2.9
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
paul
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Re: New wikipedia article, Dhyana sutras (Chan Jing)

Post by paul »

Dhammanando wrote: Your quotation is from a section entitled "Doctrinal differences with other schools". In such a context the statement is quite correct: the developed Theravāda was indeed one of the ekābhisamaya or "sudden enlightenment" schools, as opposed to the anupubbābhisamaya or "gradual enlightenment" schools like the Andhakas, Sarvastivādins, Sammītiyas and Bhadrayānikas.
Since in the Suttas one will find passages that appear to support both views, this became quite a major topic of debate at the Third Council.
Since Wikipedia is used as a source of general information by the ordinary public, I still think the way "sudden enlightenment" is presented it definitely gives a wrong impression, as though Theravada is distinguished from others in the contemporary context by a belief in "sudden enlightenment", which is not the case. It is presented as though it refers to the contemporary context.
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Dhammanando
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Re: New wikipedia article, Dhyana sutras (Chan Jing)

Post by Dhammanando »

paul wrote:Since Wikipedia is used as a source of general information by the ordinary public, I still think the way "sudden enlightenment" is presented it definitely gives a wrong impression, as though Theravada is distinguished from others in the contemporary context by a belief in "sudden enlightenment", which is not the case.
But it is the case. The Theravada is as much a sudden enlightenment school now as it was at the Third Council. It is in this respect distinguished from other schools (e.g., any Tibetan schools that teach Lamrim), while sharing the feature of suddenness with such schools as Rinzai Zen.

For example, the Wikipedia statement:
This is reflected in the Theravāda-account on the four levels of attainment, in which the attainment of the four paths appears suddenly, and the defilements are rooted out at once.
would apply to every single one of the modern Burmese vipassanā traditions and any other meditation traditions that take the Abhidhamma seriously. All of them hold that the three lower fetters of sakkāyadiṭṭhi, sīlabbatapārāmāsa and vicikicchā are not gradually worn away but are wiped out in a single thought-moment when the yogi arrives at stream-entry noble path consciousness.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
paul
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Re: New wikipedia article, Dhyana sutras (Chan Jing)

Post by paul »

Dhammanando wrote: would apply to every single one of the modern Burmese vipassanā traditions and any other meditation traditions that take the Abhidhamma seriously. All of them hold that the three lower fetters of sakkāyadiṭṭhi, sīlabbatapārāmāsa and vicikicchā are not gradually worn away but are wiped out in a single thought-moment when the yogi arrives at stream-entry noble path consciousness.
I don't agree. The moment of insight may be immediate but it is founded on gradually developing stages. Ledi Sayadaw's "Manual of Insight" describes the difference between the puthujjana-bhumi and the ariya-bhumi and the progress between the two is gradual and that should be the process that's publicized for general consumption to give a correct impression. To focus on the single moment of insight without any reference to its process environment is misleading. My view is from a more pedagogical and compassionate standpoint. It doesn't appeal to the better instincts of the public to suggest to them that attainment is immediate.
Maybe monks wouldn't be quite so aware that the quick fix is a charged area for the public because they have been extensively conditioned towards it by marketing; a teacher must find strategies to constantly steer them beyond that canker.
Last edited by paul on Fri Jun 26, 2015 11:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Dhammanando
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Re: New wikipedia article, Dhyana sutras (Chan Jing)

Post by Dhammanando »

paul wrote:My view is from a more pedagogical and compassionate standpoint. It doesn't appeal to the better instincts of the public to suggest to them that attainment is immediate.
In a section entitled Doctrinal differences with other schools a responsible Wikipedia contributor will be concerned with giving an accurate statement of the Theravada's distinctive features. Ekābhisamaya happens to be one of these, regardless of whether you think its compassionate to say so and regardless of what you think will appeal to the public's "better instincts".

That being so, if any amendment to the Wikipedia entry is warranted, it would consist not in excision but in amplification, e.g., an account of how the Theravada has traditionally interpreted those Sutta passages that appear to support the anupubbābhisamaya position and perhaps also some mention of those modern Theravadins who dissent from their school's traditional position on this question.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
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waterchan
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Re: New wikipedia article, Dhyana sutras (Chan Jing)

Post by waterchan »

I agree with what Ven Dhammanando said. Appealing to instincts is the very last thing an encyclopedia should do. An encyclopedia exists to present hard facts that are supported by well-sourced citations. There are already a vast majority of writings and talks that are packaged to appeal to the "public's instincts". Wikipedia, or any other encyclopedia for that matter, should have much higher academic standards.
LXNDR
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Re: New wikipedia article, Dhyana sutras (Chan Jing)

Post by LXNDR »

to illustrate the idea of graduality
Kitagiri sutta (MN 70) wrote:
Monks, I do not say that the attainment of gnosis is all at once. Rather, the attainment of gnosis is after gradual training, gradual action, gradual practice. And how is there the attainment of gnosis after gradual training, gradual action, gradual practice? There is the case where, when conviction has arisen, one visits [a teacher]. Having visited, one grows close. Having grown close, one lends ear. Having lent ear, one hears the Dhamma. Having heard the Dhamma, one remembers it. Remembering, one penetrates the meaning of the teachings. Penetrating the meaning, one comes to an agreement through pondering the teachings. There being an agreement through pondering the teachings, desire arises. When desire has arisen, one is willing. When one is willing, one contemplates. Having contemplated, one makes an exertion. Having made an exertion, one realizes with the body the ultimate truth and, having penetrated it with discernment, sees it.
according to this passage what gradual is training, practice
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