Problems in Gaṇakamoggallāna Sutta (MN107)

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
chownah
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Re: Problems in Gaṇakamoggallāna Sutta (MN107)

Post by chownah »

Good posting daverupa.
It is a metaphore or analogy....it is not meant to give us some kind of insight into what kind of gradual training the buddha is talking about for the dhamma....no need to look to these analogies for this since it is spelled out explicitely in the sutta right there in some detail. The analogies are just to establish that it is a gradual training...the only element of analogical interest is the gradual character and nothing else in my view. If others think there are some salient features of the other gradual activities which provide something above and beyond the sutta's explicit presentation of the buddha's gradual training I would appreciate someone explicitely presenting it.
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Re: Problems in Gaṇakamoggallāna Sutta (MN107)

Post by freedom »

Kumara wrote: In some ways, that sounds reasonable. But still.... (scratch, scratch) It still seem rather strained.
OK, now I see why: What you suggest is not parallel the training in studying [the Vedas], archery, and accountancy. These are skills. A flight of stairs is a tangible object. What training or practice can be seen in a tangible object?
If we see a "flight of stairs" is simply a tangible object then even "gradual doing" is not applicable because an object cannot perform action. However, if we look at the implication of its symbol, we could see the meaning of "gradual doing, gradual training, gradual practice" in it.

We can see this question is this way:

When building a multi-storied palace, we build from the bottom up, one level at a time, then we build each flight of stairs to reach to the new level. This is gradual doing. However, without training and practice we will not know how to build the stair. Moreover, while we build the stairs, we will also learn from the experiences and we can improve our skills. The more we build the more we train and practice. This is gradual training and gradual practice.

An important implication in this simile is that even the last flight of stairs (last step) is also a gradual process. We should not rush to finish. The higher we reach, the more we need to be careful (Higher -> more dangerous, and require more skills)
One should not be negligent of discernment, should guard the truth, be devoted to relinquishment, and train only for calm - MN 140.
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Re: Problems in Gaṇakamoggallāna Sutta (MN107)

Post by Mkoll »

Kumara wrote:
Mkoll wrote:Not just stairs, but the last flight of stairs. Why the last flight? Perhaps because the last flight is the hardest to reach, the one requiring the most effort to reach. As Ven. Dhammanando mentioned, there are sets of stairs that go extremely high, high enough that one must be of a certain level of fitness to reach the top without pausing. That level of fitness is simply unobtainable without a gradual training.
This can make some sense if the pāsāda is 10 storeys high, but did people then live in buildings so high that it required fitness training?
Probably not. :shrug:
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Re: Problems in Gaṇakamoggallāna Sutta (MN107)

Post by Kumara »

OK. Now let's look at a source of this that's likely more original:
  • From: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .irel.html:
    "Just as the great ocean gradually shelves, slopes, and inclines, and there is no sudden precipice, so also in this Dhamma and Discipline there is a gradual training, a gradual course, a gradual progression, and there is no sudden penetration to final knowledge. (Ud 5.5)
The translation is different (a gradual training, a gradual course, a gradual progression) but the Pali is the same: anupubbasikkhā anupubbakiriyā anupubbapaṭipadā.
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Re: Problems in Gaṇakamoggallāna Sutta (MN107)

Post by Kumara »

Mkoll wrote:What is the other glaring problem you see with the sutta?
Read the sutta carefully. Notice that it says something not found elsewhere (at least to my knowledge): One is to master each step of training before going to the next. Would that work? Can anyone train like that? Also study the content of the supposed steps, and notice that they overlap.

To make things more intriguing, the Agama parallel to this sutta has a different order of "gradual training".

When I saw this, I asked: What's going on here?
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Re: Problems in Gaṇakamoggallāna Sutta (MN107)

Post by Mkoll »

Kumara wrote:
Mkoll wrote:What is the other glaring problem you see with the sutta?
Read the sutta carefully. Notice that it says something not found elsewhere: One is to master each step of training before going to the next. Would that work? Can anyone train like that?
Where does it say one has to "master" each step of training before going to the next? I see phrases like "gradual practice," "gets it [meaning the thoroughbred in the simile] used to," and "as soon." Nothing there about mastery or am I missing something else?
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Re: Problems in Gaṇakamoggallāna Sutta (MN107)

Post by Kumara »

Mkoll wrote:
Kumara wrote:
Mkoll wrote:What is the other glaring problem you see with the sutta?
Read the sutta carefully. Notice that it says something not found elsewhere: One is to master each step of training before going to the next. Would that work? Can anyone train like that?
Where does it say one has to "master" each step of training before going to the next? I see phrases like "gradual practice," "gets it [meaning the thoroughbred in the simile] used to," and "as soon." Nothing there about mastery or am I missing something else?
OK, it doesn't use the word "master". That's my paraphrase. Go further to the training part. What we find is this: When, brahmin, the bhikkhu is (a certain training), then the Tathagata disciplines him further (from MLDB). So, following it literally, one is supposed to complete one training before doing the next.

The significance of this is greater in the eye of practitioners. I pointed this out to Ven Analayo who's into comparative work, "The Pali one says that the bhikkhu has to be able to accomplish one before the Buddha trains him in the next, which is mind-boggling for me" and he said:
  • mmh, I see your point, but then I did not take the text as literal as that. The Madhyama-aagama parallel is similarly worded (though it differs for example by mentioning the four satipa.t.thaanas before indriya sa.mvara!!).
And I replied:
  • This seems more appropriate to me. How then can a person not grasp on the signs and features of the sense objects (incl. mind), if he hasn't even learnt how to be aware of the mind?
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Mkoll
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Re: Problems in Gaṇakamoggallāna Sutta (MN107)

Post by Mkoll »

Kumara wrote:
Mkoll wrote:
Kumara wrote:Read the sutta carefully. Notice that it says something not found elsewhere: One is to master each step of training before going to the next. Would that work? Can anyone train like that?
Where does it say one has to "master" each step of training before going to the next? I see phrases like "gradual practice," "gets it [meaning the thoroughbred in the simile] used to," and "as soon." Nothing there about mastery or am I missing something else?
OK, it doesn't use the word "master". That's my paraphrase. Go further to the training part. What we find is this: When, brahmin, the bhikkhu is (a certain training), then the Tathagata disciplines him further (from MLDB). So, following it literally, one is supposed to do complete one training before doing the next.

The significance of this is greater in the eye of practitioners. I pointed this out to Ven Analayo who's into comparative work, "The Pali one says that the bhikkhu has to be able to accomplish one before the Buddha trains him in the next, which is mind-boggling for me" and he said:
  • mmh, I see your point, but then I did not take the text as literal as that. The Madhyama-aagama parallel is similarly worded (though it differs for example by mentioning the four satipa.t.thaanas before indriya sa.mvara!!).

    This seems more appropriate to me. How then can a person not grasp on the
    signs and features of the sense objects (incl. mind), if he hasn't even
    learnt how to be aware of the mind?
I don't think that's a paraphrase, it's a change in meaning. ;)

This I.B. Horner translation you linked uses the phrase "as soon [as]" and Ven B. uses the phrase "when." To me, that says nothing of mastery or completion of the previous training. I think it's saying saying quite the opposite here: it's talking about a foundational level of skill, not a masterful level.

To use an imperfect analogy...ever play any video games or know how most of them work? When you've beaten one level, you can move on to the next level. That doesn't mean you've mastered the previous level, but you're able to do it nonetheless. It means you're good enough to move on. I think that's what's being said in this sutta.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
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Re: Problems in Gaṇakamoggallāna Sutta (MN107)

Post by Kumara »

Mkoll wrote:I don't think that's a paraphrase, it's a change in meaning. ;)

This I.B. Horner translation you linked uses the phrase "as soon [as]" and Ven B. uses the phrase "when." To me, that says nothing of mastery or completion of the previous training. I think it's saying saying quite the opposite here: it's talking about a foundational level of skill, not a masterful level.

To use an imperfect analogy...ever play any video games or know how most of them work? When you've beaten one level, you can move on to the next level. That doesn't mean you've mastered the previous level, but you're able to do it nonetheless. It means you're good enough to move on. I think that's what's being said in this sutta.
OK. Let's take "able to do it". So, one is suppose to be able to FIRST not mentally grasp on signs and features of [visual] form, sound ... [mental] phenomena THEN be trained in others like moderation in eating. It's that putting a much harder training first?
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Re: Problems in Gaṇakamoggallāna Sutta (MN107)

Post by daverupa »

Kumara wrote:OK. Let's take "able to do it". So, one is suppose to be able to FIRST not mentally grasp on signs and features of [visual] form, sound ... [mental] phenomena THEN be trained in others like moderation in eating. It's that putting a much harder training first?
Well, the text has these, in this order:

Morality
Sense-control
Moderation in eating
Vigilance
Mindfulness and clear consciousness
Overcoming of the five hindrances
Jhana

So what if the first three are standing in for Sila, and the next five are standing in for Samadhi?

It'll mean that we have a Sutta talking about the ennobling eightfold Path within certain conversational restraints, I think. I'm not sure what to make of this 'second problem' to do with the pattern of "as soon as X", however.

For what it's worth, the eating section has a complicated set of phrases detailing the motivation there, rather than simply being a moral or Vinaya-based injunction, so the instructions are all pointing towards a calm composure, it seems to me, which would show how the whole discourse saw what monks train for - Samadhi - as the point being driven at, as the series of professional similes also indicates.

It actually flows along towards jhana in a rather direct way, now that I'm looking for it... maybe this is the basis for that use of "as soon as". Perhaps it also indicates no delay in training, and thus skillful instruction.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Problems in Gaṇakamoggallāna Sutta (MN107)

Post by Dhammanando »

Kumara wrote:So, one is suppose to be able to FIRST not mentally grasp on signs and features of [visual] form, sound ... [mental] phenomena THEN be trained in others like moderation in eating. It's that putting a much harder training first?
I don't think it's a question of hard or easy, but rather of introducing each new training at the point where it will be of optimal benefit.
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In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
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Re: Problems in Gaṇakamoggallāna Sutta (MN107)

Post by santa100 »

Kumara wrote:So, one is suppose to be able to FIRST not mentally grasp on signs and features of [visual] form, sound ... [mental] phenomena THEN be trained in others like moderation in eating. It's that putting a much harder training first?
Actually the sequence of instructions makes a lot of sense. The non-grasping of signs and features of the 6 sense objects is the required foundation to make it smoother to carry out the subsequent steps. For example, without the practice of not grasping at the signs and features of the sight, smell, and taste of food, it'd be much more difficult to practice moderation in eating.
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Re: Problems in Gaṇakamoggallāna Sutta (MN107)

Post by Kumara »

daverupa wrote:
Kumara wrote:OK. Let's take "able to do it". So, one is suppose to be able to FIRST not mentally grasp on signs and features of [visual] form, sound ... [mental] phenomena THEN be trained in others like moderation in eating. It's that putting a much harder training first?
Well, the text has these, in this order:

Morality
Sense-control
Moderation in eating
Vigilance
Mindfulness and clear consciousness
Overcoming of the five hindrances
Jhana

So what if the first three are standing in for Sila, and the next five are standing in for Samadhi?
That won't do. What you have there as "Sense-control" is "indriyesu guttadvāro" which can be quite literally translated as "of guarded doors of the faculties", and it includes not grasping of signs and features of mental phenomena. Does it makes sense that one is to be able to do this first, then the Buddha trains him in moderation in eating?
It'll mean that we have a Sutta talking about the ennobling eightfold Path within certain conversational restraints, I think. I'm not sure what to make of this 'second problem' to do with the pattern of "as soon as X", however.
It's not "as soon as" actually. It's "yato kho"; kho being an empathic particle and "yato" in this case can be simply translated as "when".
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Re: Problems in Gaṇakamoggallāna Sutta (MN107)

Post by Dhammanando »

Kumara wrote:Does it makes sense that one is to be able to do this first, then the Buddha trains him in moderation in eating?
Absolutely. As I remarked in my last post: it's a question of introducing each new training at the point where it will be of optimal benefit. Now you can practise sīla and indriyesu guttadvāra even though you're stuffing yourself silly, but you can't practise jāgariyaṃ anuyoga — devotion to wakefulness — without first establishing yourself in moderate eating because over-eating will make you sleepy and lethargic — states that are directly opposed to staying awake.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
daverupa
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Re: Problems in Gaṇakamoggallāna Sutta (MN107)

Post by daverupa »

Kumara wrote:...
Ah, thank you for these points. So then, hmm...
Dhammanando wrote:
Kumara wrote:Does it makes sense that one is to be able to do this first, then the Buddha trains him in moderation in eating?
Absolutely. As I remarked in my last post: it's a question of introducing each new training at the point where it will be of optimal benefit. Now you can practise sīla and indriyesu guttadvāra even though you're stuffing yourself silly, but you can't practise jāgariyaṃ anuyoga — devotion to wakefulness — without first establishing yourself in moderate eating because over-eating will make you sleepy and lethargic — states that are directly opposed to staying awake.
This feels like a decent explanation, aligning with the structure of the Sutta re: talking to a brahmin accountant about the foundation for & practice of mental training as the special skill of Buddhist monastics, just as accountancy & horse-training & so forth are special skills.

So, the whole structure is built up around shaping a Sila-Samadhi progression to indicate the training for jhana & liberation, just as a staircase indicates the way to a landing.

The additional specification of mental composure with respect to eating seems to be in place specifically to bring a right livelihood referent into the discussion (alms) while letting this aspect of Sila remain, as with the others, lensed to emphasize the preparation for jhana & liberation, the monastic specialty (as opposed to e.g. horses).

But, when basically getting asked if everyone makes it to the top of the staircase or not, the Buddha changes the imagery to allow for wandering afield at a given point. Even though there are still stations of measurable progress, one can wander afield at any particular point without necessarily going back to an earlier point, as one must on a staircase.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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